424 replies to this topic

[Val the Wildling Princess]

Necessary thread was necessary, thanks Apple Martini

[jmastar]

Edited for getting owned before another post comes!!!!

Edited by jmastar, 16 February 2012 - 04:21 AM.

[Apple Martini]

Ser Loudmouth, on 15 February 2012 - 05:20 AM, said:

Which brings us to the question:
Is there any truth to the belief that Targaryens have "dragon blood"? Do they (or some of them) posess some kind of special, or "magical" characteristics? Is there any practical reason for their insistence to preserve the purity of the bloodline? Is there some kind of "dragon rider" gene that they (or some of them) posess?

Probably not, no. I sincerely think it's all a front  in order to preserve their "mystique" to the Westerosi so they can keep a stranglehold on them. I think they intermarry to preserve their exotic features, which would be lost otherwise. But I don't think there's any tangible benefit to doing so. The Valyrians had spells and methods to tame their dragons, but that seems to be the result of specific, conscious methods and actions, not so much based on who they "are." Compare that with wargs, who are have "powers" by virtue of just who they are.

Ashkan Stark, on 15 February 2012 - 05:38 AM, said:

maybe she is not completely immune from fire but she certainley is not like normal people. she burned a bit but she will be good way more fast. she is not like normal people but she is not completely immune.

What are you basing this on, exactly?

Edited by Apple Martini, 17 February 2012 - 12:08 AM.

[Faint]

In my mind whether the Targaryens are always immune to fire is irrelevant so long as they are immune when the story needs them to be. Or, put simply, it would not shock me in the slightest if GRRM pulled the same stunt twice. Say this for GRRM, he is not adverse to repeating himself.

[Apple Martini]

Faint, on 17 February 2012 - 12:30 AM, said:

In my mind whether the Targaryens are always immune to fire is irrelevant so long as they are immune when the story needs them to be. Or, put simply, it would not shock me in the slightest if GRRM pulled the same stunt twice. Say this for GRRM, he is not adverse to repeating himself.

I hope he doesn't pull that stunt again. "I need a fire-resistant Targ for this to work" just feels like an easy cheat. I can accept Dany's one-round immunity because it had to do with outside magic and not so much with her Targ blood. If it happens again or happens to other Targs — I'm not talking about high tolerance, I'm talking about outright immunity — it'll be veering into, "So-and-so is dead, just kidding!" territory.

Edited by Apple Martini, 17 February 2012 - 02:17 AM.

[Ygrain]

However, there _is_ something in the Targaryen blood that the dragons can sense - remember them liking Brown Ben because of that drop of Targ blood in his veins (and this is explicitely confirmed later by Tyrion). I think that _this_ is the reason for the intermarrying, the preservation and possibly enhancement of this trait, though the Targs themselves may have forgotten it.

And Dany is definitely not immune to fire, her hands got blisteres after holding on to Drogon - though, GRRM probably didn't realize that if her hands got blistered, her thigh and ass would have fared even worse after a ride without protection.

[Apple Martini]

Ygrain, on 17 February 2012 - 12:42 AM, said:

However, there _is_ something in the Targaryen blood that the dragons can sense - remember them liking Brown Ben because of that drop of Targ blood in his veins (and this is explicitely confirmed later by Tyrion). I think that _this_ is the reason for the intermarrying, the preservation and possibly enhancement of this trait, though the Targs themselves may have forgotten it.

Are we sure this was the actual reason? I'm not trying to be a contrarian, just pointing out that causation and correlation aren't the same thing.

EDIT: And as Jem pointed out, Quentyn didn't fare so well with the dragons.

Edited by Apple Martini, 17 February 2012 - 01:01 AM.

[Jem]

Ygrain, on 17 February 2012 - 12:42 AM, said:

However, there _is_ something in the Targaryen blood that the dragons can sense - remember them liking Brown Ben because of that drop of Targ blood in his veins (and this is explicitely confirmed later by Tyrion). I think that _this_ is the reason for the intermarrying, the preservation and possibly enhancement of this trait, though the Targs themselves may have forgotten it.

I thought Quentyn's demise was proof that that isn't the case.

[Revan Baratheon]

Ser Loudmouth, on 15 February 2012 - 05:20 AM, said:

Which brings us to the question:
Is there any truth to the belief that Targaryens have "dragon blood"? Do they (or some of them) posess some kind of special, or "magical"
characteristics? Is there any practical reason for their insistence to preserve the purity of the bloodline? Is there some kind of "dragon rider" gene that they (or some of them) posess?

They were simple shepherds once my friend.Kinda like the smallfolk of essos.They just knew some magic shit to control dragons and had cool physical features...They were quite ordinary really,definetly no dragon blood

They might have had some "sheep blood" cause they were apparently fucking their sheep before the dragon age

[ManyFacedOne]

Apple Martini, on 14 February 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:

Along these same lines, I don't think that Targaryens are immune to sickness, either. Someone should have told Dany that her great-great-great-grandfather Daeron II and a bunch of distant cousins died in the Great Spring Sickness. We also have alcoholic Targs (Aegon V's brother Daeron), Targs who died in war (Daeron I, Maekar I), Targs who were allegedly stabbed to death by the Iron Throne (Maegor I), Targs who just took a bad hit to the head (Baelor Breakspear), and those who were supposedly poisoned (Baelor I).

They could very well have some type of immunity to normal illnesses, the Great Spring Sickness being a special case of a sudden new outbreak of disease. Dany does mention that she doesn't remember ever being sick.

Apple Martini, on 14 February 2012 - 09:32 PM, said:

Imagine what would have happened if he'd actually tried to burn her. There's a difference between what she actually believes and what's actually the case. She also thinks Targs are immune from disease, despite that clearly not being true.

He did try to burn her and partially succeeded.

Catastrophe, on 15 February 2012 - 12:58 AM, said:

Also keep in mind that fire resistance isn't the same thing as complete immunity to fire, I'm sure if she was subjected to enough heat she'd burn like anyone else. (If you're familiar with role-playing games and the like, stuff like that comes up pretty often. I remember one guy in an old gaming group who gave his character a quality called Pain Resistance or something like that, thinking it made him completely immune to non-lethal damage when in actuality it just let him reduce that type of damage by 10%.)

Technically dragons aren't immune to fire either. Dragons died in the doom from the fires of the Fourteen Flames, and in the Dance of the Dragons when dragon fought dragon.

[SerDanielstanTheBold]

Is Azor Ahai immune to fire? Then it would make sense that we'll definitely be seeing someone else that's fire proof, assuming AA is actually reborn.

Hopefully it isnt a Targ thats AA, if R+L=J and his bodies done with then it makes sense that their skin is not fire retardant and he should come back as a non Targ.

[Apple Martini]

SerDanielstanTheBold, on 17 February 2012 - 01:24 AM, said:

Is Azor Ahai immune to fire? Then it would make sense that we'll definitely be seeing someone else that's fire proof, assuming AA is actually reborn.

It's never actually said. I don't know why he/she would be (I don't think we're looking at a literal flaming sword).

[Alia of the knife]

vogorroswhore, on 15 February 2012 - 12:59 AM, said:

Good call.  And Dany does have diarrhea during her nature hike back from Drogon's "Dragonstone"...maybe early symptoms of the Pale Mare?  Wishful thinking...

Yes, a descriptive chapter I could have done without.

[Lykos]

ManyFacedOne, on 17 February 2012 - 01:19 AM, said:

<snip>
Technically dragons aren't immune to fire either. Dragons died in the doom from the fires of the Fourteen Flames, and in the Dance of the Dragons when dragon fought dragon.

It´s more likely that they were  killed by debris brought forth by the eruptions.

[Alia of the knife]

Sooo, if Jon is half Targ.(blood of the dragon), and half Stark, (warg- and one of the most powerful according to V), he would be a "short-cut" to controlling the dragon(s) since the Targs. forgot sorcery.

Would Rhaegar have been aware of the Starks ability to warg?
I thought that I read that in the South, warging was looked upon the same way witchcraft was looked upon in real history, so the Starks may have hidden whatever ability they had.
And are they themselves even aware of it, or do they confuse it with "dreaming"?

(There doesn't seem to be any "Yoda" around to show them how to master it).

Edited by Alia of the knife, 17 February 2012 - 01:45 AM.

[Apple Martini]

Alia of the knife, on 17 February 2012 - 01:43 AM, said:

And are they themselves even aware of it, or do they confuse it with "dreaming"?

I think the only one who consciously thinks of himself as being a warg is Bran. If I remember correctly, some wildlings have figured out that Jon is a warg, but Jon himself hasn't. Given how rare wargs are supposed to be, I'd be surprised if it factored into Rhaegar's decision-making. It's just a bonus.

ETA: I think Arya suspects that she has some skill in this, but I doubt she connects it to the idea of "warging."

Edited by Apple Martini, 17 February 2012 - 01:59 AM.

[Ygrain]

Apple Martini, on 17 February 2012 - 12:51 AM, said:

Are we sure this was the actual reason? I'm not trying to be a contrarian, just pointing out that causation and correlation aren't the same thing.

EDIT: And as Jem pointed out, Quentyn didn't fare so well with the dragons.

I've seen this discussed elsewhere, and someone made a very good point that the _first_ dragon Quentyn approached actually did seem to start responding, before the other came from behind and roasted the chap. It would seem that Quentyn's mistake was not approaching a dragon at all but that there was one too many.

[SerDanielstanTheBold]

Apple Martini, on 17 February 2012 - 01:25 AM, said:

It's never actually said. I don't know why he/she would be (I don't think we're looking at a literal flaming sword).

Right on. I like the idea of AA being encased in fire vs just wielding a flaming sword. Human Torch style.

Alia of the knife, on 17 February 2012 - 01:43 AM, said:

Sooo, if Jon is half Targ.(blood of the dragon), and half Stark, (warg- and one of the most powerful according to V), he would be a "short-cut" to controlling the dragon(s) since the Targs. forgot sorcery.

Would Rhaegar have been aware of the Starks ability to warg?
I thought that I read that in the South, warging was looked upon the same way witchcraft was looked upon in real history, so the Starks may have hidden whatever ability they had.
And are they themselves even aware of it, or do they confuse it with "dreaming"?

(There doesn't seem to be any "Yoda" around to show them how to master it).

Aren't wildlings afraid of wargs? Didn't Varamyr six skin's parents send him  off because he freaked them out?  Did the old kings of the North Warg into their direwolves?

^^Does Arya count? She knows about the wolf dreams and then she took over the cat.

[Apple Martini]

Ygrain, on 17 February 2012 - 01:53 AM, said:

I've seen this discussed elsewhere, and someone made a very good point that the _first_ dragon Quentyn approached actually did seem to start responding, before the other came from behind and roasted the chap. It would seem that Quentyn's mistake was not approaching a dragon at all but that there was one too many.

He also approached the one whom we know to be the most genial or at least laid back of the three, Viserion. He was roasted by the one who seems, based on precedent, to have the nastiest temper, Rhaegal.

Again, correlation =/= causation.

ETA: The dragon who made nice with Plumm was also Viserion, I just checked. I think this might have more to do with Viserion just being of a friendlier personality and less to do with "dragon's blood." Just because Plumm or Dany or whoever puts it down to "dragon's blood" doesn't mean that that's true.

Edited by Apple Martini, 17 February 2012 - 02:18 AM.

[Zizoz]

I don't see any reason to believe that any of the previous generation of Starks were wargs, and I doubt Rhaegar did either.