424 replies to this topic

[Serie]

Giovanna Neve, on 22 February 2012 - 04:06 PM, said:

Arrogance is to think she could help those slaves. Slaver cities were easy preys so she smashed them. But if her intention was to keep those slave free she could have thought HOW TO KEEP THEM FREE. But no long term plans in her brain, just "fire and blood!".

IMHO this is not arrogance, this is wishful thinking.

[Nev yn]

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She took it off before entering the pit. I believe her thoughts were, "fuck this guy, fuck this bloody fighting, and fuck these floppy ears"

While this is accurate, she did not remove undergarments.  Nice, flammable undergarments.  Which, while dirty in her time on Dragonstone, were not referenced as singed or burnt.

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

WRT the issue of free will, prophecy, and destiny:

I don't agree with the train metaphor. I think this whole issue can be explained by using the time-travel paradox, which is probably oddly relevant considering that Bran can see through time, and possibly influence events outside of his own time to a small degree. These characters certainly have free will and are shaping their own destinies. It would be a hackneyed story if they didn't. However, the various prophecies and greendreams can show people a muddled slice of the future. The future is something that can't be changed because it belongs on the same timeline as the current events, but it definitely happens that way because of the choices the characters make themselves.

Now, going back to the dragons, which brought up this entire metaphysical discussion in the first place---they're no more "magical" or "special" agents of destiny than the ship that carries Davos to Skagos, or Stranger. They move, they do stuff, the stuff they do affects some people around them, the people then react to the situations in which they find themselves, they make choices of their own volition and discard alternatives, something they end up choosing to do becomes the fulfillment of these prophecies. So Drogon didn't lead Dany to the place where she would meet the Khalasar because he had a sense of what Dany's destiny should. He didn't come to the pit at some critical moment, driven by some sixth sense. He came because he was attracted to the noise, the blood, or just because he damned well felt like it, Dany reacted, shaped her future, was carried out into the grasslands, happened to wander into a place where she found the Dothraki. For all we know the Khalasar was following the burn patterns that Drogon created, wondering what was going on. There's absolutely no reason that any of this has to be immutable, predetermined fate that Dany has no control over, nor have the Dragons been shown at this point to be any more that huge fire-breathing predators.

[Fearsome Fred]

RevengeOfTheStarks, on 22 February 2012 - 04:00 PM, said:

First of all, I'm a woman, very long hair, don't use any product other than shampoo and conditioner. Idk what kind of hair you have but mine burned incredibly quickly.

Conditioner is a hair treatment product.  It leaves residues in the hair that cause hair to burn more rapidly than untreated hair.  Long straight hair will also burn upwards very rapidly, for the obvious reason that flames tend rise upwards.  Similarly, and upright sheet of paper, ignited from below, tends to burn more quickly than, say, a crumpled sheet of paper.

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I want to make clear that I don't think the pit event was in any way an example of Dany being more fire resistant that anyone else. She has never been shown to be definitely fire resistant at any point after the dragon hatching, just very heat tolerant, which is nothing magical or special. As someone earlier said, she has about the same level of heat tolerance as your average Rhoynar (sp?) Dornish person, which makes perfect sense considering her um..Valyrian ethnicity. People keep talking about how regardless of the hair issue, she was exposed to an inferno of dragon fire and that must cause any normal person severe burns, but not Dany, so she's special. Can someone please explain to me in that case, WHY her silk tokar didn't burn off of her??? Please? Many people including myself have brought this up repeatedly and no fire-resistance advocate has bothered to explain it. Because the heat she was exposed to couldn't have been that bad if her clothes remained intact, so I see nothing in this argument that she was exposed to scorching temperatures when she ducked under the fire. This ain't chemistry, it's common sense, something I believe GRRM possesses even if he doesn't have a chem degree

She said the flames avoided her, just as they did in the bonfire.  Perhaps they stayed a little further away this time, avoiding not only her skin, but her Tokar as well.

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

Fire_Kiss, on 22 February 2012 - 04:07 PM, said:

She took it off before entering the pit. I believe her thoughts were, "fuck this guy, fuck this bloody fighting, and fuck these floppy ears"

Thank you. I had forgotten that. So it was the underclothes then, which didn't burn, as Apple said. She definitely wasn't naked when she was wandering around in the Dothraki sea

[Nev yn]

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Perhaps they stayed a little further away this time, avoiding not only her skin, but her Tokar as well.

So odd that they respected her clothes but not her hair.

[Fearsome Fred]

Nev yn, on 22 February 2012 - 04:19 PM, said:

So odd that they respected her clothes but not her hair.

Not really.  It is easier to ignite hair than cloth.

Edit:  Moreover, there is no evidence that the fire left her clothes unmarred; merely that she was not burned stark naked.

Edited by Fearsome Fred, 22 February 2012 - 04:26 PM.

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

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Conditioner is a hair treatment product.

Yeah, that you wash out and which in no way effects the structure of your hair, unlike getting a perm or chemical dye. Residue schmesidue, it's not going to make that much of a difference. And I already pointed out how different hair types DO in fact make a difference, but it had nothing to do with being  "crumpled" so you're wrong.

[Gala]

I always wondered about highborns saying "I am blood of a dragon", "I am a lion" or "I am a wolf"…

the first one is said by Dany numerous times, while she is just a girl that don't know anything, moreover, she doesn't what to (I had an impression from ADWD that she doesn't want to know the truth or to really learn something from Barristan).

Cersei also says "I am a lion", which actually doesn't help her much too. Both of them are ignorant to not understand that they are nothing, but just people.

While, for example, Arya repeats "I am a wolf", it is sounds more like "Boys don't cry" (if you understand what I mean), which also childish and ignorant in some ways, but it is excusable because of her age and because she is not queen, responsible for people, she is just a girl.

And what is more interesting that this little girl actually understands that those are just words and that she can't change anything, that she is just a girl (after the Red Wedding)! I find it fascinating that small 10 year old is smarter than both those queens. (not mentioning the fact that she is a wolf, literally)

[Giovanna Neve]

Serie, on 22 February 2012 - 04:12 PM, said:

IMHO this is not arrogance, this is wishful thinking.

Arrogant wishful thinking.

[Errant Bard]

PatrickStormborn, on 22 February 2012 - 03:06 PM, said:

It's the character's choice to stay on the track that makes it destiny. Or that's how I see it. The characters are still the ones making the choice -- it's just part of a much larger destiny. But here's the thing: characters choose their own destiny.

I'm sorry, I don't understand, it total nonsense to me. If you choose, it's not destiny, it's your choice; if your choice was made for you before you were even born by some cosmic force, it's not a choice; also destiny has no width: it's a railroading down one specific track, it's binary: it happens, or it does not.

If you can choose it, at least, it's definitely not what Ran was talking about, after all he said you couldn't choose, just that you could, I don't know, be nice about it or not, or something like this, despite at the same time saying that being nice or not is what you didn't choose (Compatibilism)... well I didn't really understand the underlying logic, but one thing is for sure, in what I responded was a definition of destiny where you didn't actually choose it.

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This is why we have yet to see a subversion of prophecy in asoiaf. It's also why Bran is able to communicate through weirwoods without changing the past.

Huh. Rhaego visions? The Stallion that mounts the world?

[LadyoftheNorth72]

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And then there is Jojen and the green dreams. What do you think, did the gods give Jojen green dreams so he could see but not change them? I don't know the answer, but I do know that GRRM is asking the reader to ask questions about this. Look, I believe the AA prophecy will probably be fulfilled in some way, but I don't know how. But I also think GRRM has something more in store for us than a tidy wrapping up of the prophecy and its meaning. I think it is within the realm of possibilty that it won't come true at all. I believe that 'prophecy' is another fantasy narrative trope that GRRM intends to subvert in some way. I do not believe he is writing a story of predetermination, all roads lead to prophesized Rome. I think the green dreams or visions in the flame, in particular, have the potential to not just be misread but also changed by character agency.

I absolutely agree with this.  Another example, which I am surprised no one has mentioned, is Melisandre and her "reading of flames." Being shown visions of future events in flames is another form of prophecy.  Yet we have seen repeatedly how Mel's reading (or misreading) of those prophecies has drastically affected the courses of action characters have taken, in particular Stannis.  Stannis would almost certainly have seen himself as the true heir to Robert whether he had ever met Mel or not.  But the whole AA reborn thing?   Who knows if he had ever even heard of the prophecy before she showed up to inform him that he was the Chosen One?  In any case, her reading and interpretations of the flames have been inaccurate, or driven by her determination to see them in ways that confirm her pre-formed beliefs, many times.  

IMO this reinforces the idea that GRRM is not only not feeding us a "life is predetermined" line, he is doing just the opposite.  Prophecies have been misread, misinterpreted and acted upon in utterly foolish ways.  If I were going to take a message from what I have read in the five books so far, it would be along the lines of what Pycelle said to Cersei when she asked him if our morrows can be foretold.  He told her that the better question was "SHOULD they," and that the answer was no.  Qyburn also told Cersei quite emphatically that prophecies can be averted quite easily.  Is it gospel, coming from a character like Qyburn?  Maybe not, but he seems like the type of fellow who would have learned a lot of lessons about prophecy the hard way.

First, you have the fact that prophecies themselves are open to all kinds of interpretation (see the discussions about double meanings for "crowns" and "shrouds," and Mel's mistaken assumption that the girl riding toward the Wall must be Jon's sister).  And even if you manage to interpret parts or all of them correctly, they offer you very little in the way of practical guidance.  The only area in which I can see that any type of prophecy has benefitted anyone in any way (so far) have been Moqorro's guidance of Victarion in his voyage.  And interestingly, the prophecies Moqorro is sharing require virtually no interpretation whatsoever:  he foresees that the next prize ship will be in X location on Y day, and by gosh there it is.  

Half the characters in these books are running about, trying to convince themselves that their interpretation of this prophecy or that is the correct one (and most of them have conflicting interpretations); obviously only one (or none) of them can be the accurate interpretation, and so far the general result has been a lot of chaos and needless destructiveness.  Dany has spent a fair amount of time worrying herself over Mirri's "prophecy," when Mirri may well have just been amusing herself in an attempt to sound wise.  Maggy may have simply taken a dislike to Cersei and given her a "prophecy," knowing the girl would spend the rest of her life fearing it.

There is an element of people fulfilling certain sections of various prophecies through their own actions, due to their faith in what they believe to be real.  But other than that, the central message regarding prophecies that I have taken away from the first five books is that both your sanity and your physical soundness are better off if you ignore them, or better yet, refuse to hear them in the first place.

[Fearsome Fred]

RevengeOfTheStarks, on 22 February 2012 - 04:21 PM, said:

Yeah, that you wash out and which in no way effects the structure of your hair, unlike getting a perm or chemical dye. Residue schmesidue, it's not going to make that much of a difference.

Perhaps not.  Hairspray may have more of an effect.

http://www.chemaxx.c...spray_fire1.htm

[Apple Martini]

Errant Bard, on 22 February 2012 - 04:28 PM, said:

Huh. Rhaego visions? The Stallion that mounts the world?

Don't forget the Quaithe prophecies (the griffin and mummer's dragon are coming, hide yo kids, hide yo wife) that seem to have been averted.

I've tried to make this point before, but I don't believe that prophecy in this story is about "ticking the boxes" and then declaring whoever "comes closest" to be AA or TPTWP or whatever ever. The end game is what matters, and it doesn't matter how many boxes you tick -- if you don't save the realm, you're not AA.

And I agree with your other points.

[Nev yn]

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Not really. It is easier to ignite hair than cloth.

Surely the magical fire force-field you were positing doesn't distinguish and only let through "just enough" heat to burn hair.

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Edit: Moreover, there is no evidence that the fire left her clothes unmarred; merely that she was not burned stark naked.

She thinks of them as dirty, not burned.  But either way, this still demonstrates Dany's disconnect with reality.  She states that the pit is the same as the pyre, when this detail differed (so obviously the degree of the heat/fire was much, much less, if it can't burn cloth -- if you're not charred by a flame that's not even hot enough to burn your clothes, it's hardly a mystical event).  She's just seeing what she wants to see.

[Fearsome Fred]

Nev yn, on 22 February 2012 - 05:09 PM, said:

Surely the magical fire force-field you were positing doesn't distinguish and only let through "just enough" heat to burn hair.

Who said anything about a "force field"?  And as for distinguishing, it obviously does, to some extent.  On the prior occasion, it permitted the burning of her clothes and hair, but not her skin.

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

Fearsome Fred, on 22 February 2012 - 05:21 PM, said:

Who said anything about a "force field"?  And as for distinguishing, it obviously does, to some extent.  On the prior occasion, it permitted the burning of her clothes and hair, but not her skin.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. Thin cloth like the material of a shift might not burn as easily as hair but it still burns pretty easily--starts to burn right up if you hold a piece over a stove. You're trying to argue that
1. Dany is magically fire resistant and that the pit was a fire-resistant event
2. Her shift didn't burn because cloth doesn't burn as easily as hair and the fire wasn't hot enough to burn the cloth
3. But STILL, the fire was really really hot and should have burned her skin and scalp a lot more if she were a normal non-Targ, but she escaped because she's magic.

Hint: only one of the above is true, and that fact excludes the others from being true

[Fearsome Fred]

Nev yn, on 22 February 2012 - 05:09 PM, said:

She thinks of them as dirty, not burned.  

One does not rule out the other.

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But either way, this still demonstrates Dany's disconnect with reality.  She states that the pit is the same as the pyre, when this detail differed

I see no reason to assume that she thinks the situations were identical, just because she compared them.  She seems to think mystical forces were involved in both cases.  I trust her judgment more than yours.

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(so obviously the degree of the heat/fire was much, much less, if it can't burn cloth -- if you're not charred by a flame that's not even hot enough to burn your clothes, it's hardly a mystical event).

If flames avoid you that might otherwise touch and consume you, it might be mystical.  And if they avoid you, they might (mostly) miss your clothes as well.  Or not.

[Apple Martini]

Fearsome Fred, on 22 February 2012 - 05:31 PM, said:

One does not rule out the other.

So you're trying to say that her shift was burned, even though she only referenced it being dirty? You don't think she'd mention burn/scorch marks in addition to dirt?

[Fearsome Fred]

RevengeOfTheStarks, on 22 February 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

How am I doing that?

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Thin cloth like the material of a shift might not burn as easily as hair but it still burns pretty easily--starts to burn right up if you hold a piece over a stove.

So.  Fire that mystically and magically avoids burning skin can also avoid burning cloth.  Or not.

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You're trying to argue that
1. Dany is magically fire resistant and that the pit was a fire-resistant event

I took no position as to the nature or mechanism of the fire resistance, except that I think it is mystical.  Flame repellant, heat resistance, heat repellant, some combination thereof.  Whatever.

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2. Her shift didn't burn because cloth doesn't burn as easily as hair and the fire wasn't hot enough to burn the cloth

I never said that was the only reason.  A complex array of factors are involved, including mystical ones.  It is perfectly plausible, in a chaotic multi-factored situation, that some things will burn and not others.  Especially when one thing burns more easily than the other.

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3. But STILL, the fire was really really hot and should have burned her skin and scalp a lot more if she were a normal non-Targ, but she escaped because she's magic.

I took no position on the heat of the fire, insofar as it touched her.  People all around her were burning.  She escaped.  Her hair burnt off without her suffering significant injury.

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Hint: only one of the above is true, and that fact excludes the others from being true

No.  They all can be true.