424 replies to this topic

[Bright Blue Eyes]

SerDanielstanTheBold, on 17 February 2012 - 01:55 AM, said:

Aren't wildlings afraid of wargs? Didn't Varamyr six skin's parents send him  off because he freaked them out?  Did the old kings of the North Warg into their direwolves?

No. Wildlings may be a bit afraid, but they respect wargs. Varamyr is a special case because he killed his little brother while warging.
At least some of the old Kings in the North had to be wargs. There is a theory out there that's the reason why the Boltons took to flaying: They wanted to change their skin too, but lacked the talent. So they started wearing the literal skin of known skinchangers.

[Ygrain]

Apple Martini, on 17 February 2012 - 01:57 AM, said:

He also approached the one whom we know to be the most genial or at least laid back of the three, Viserion. He was roasted by the one who seems, based on precedent, to have the nastiest temper, Rhaegal.

Again, correlation =/= causation.

ETA: The dragon who made nice with Plumm was also Viserion, I just checked. I think this might have more to do with Viserion just being of a friendlier personality and less to do with "dragon's blood." Just because Plumm or Dany or whoever puts it down to "dragon's blood" doesn't mean that that's true.

I missed that part on the dragons' tempers, mainly because I keep confusing the two. However, what I give most credit to is Tyrion's correct prediction, based on his reading, that the dragons liked Plumm. - BTW, if I'm not mistaken, Dany also says "dragonS" - given that they were in frequent contact, the scene with Viseryon can't have been the only occasion. Even if Viseryon was friendlier than the other two and the easiest to make contact with, it still implies that the other dragons responded to the Targ bloodline, as well. IMHO.

[Black Crow]

Apple Martini, on 17 February 2012 - 01:50 AM, said:

I think the only one who consciously thinks of himself as being a warg is Bran. If I remember correctly, some wildlings have figured out that Jon is a warg, but Jon himself hasn't. Given how rare wargs are supposed to be, I'd be surprised if it factored into Rhaegar's decision-making. It's just a bonus.

ETA: I think Arya suspects that she has some skill in this, but I doubt she connects it to the idea of "warging."

I'd be very surprised indeed if Arya made the connection - remember that Jon had to have it explained to him

[Black Crow]

Apple Martini, on 17 February 2012 - 01:50 AM, said:

I think the only one who consciously thinks of himself as being a warg is Bran. If I remember correctly, some wildlings have figured out that Jon is a warg, but Jon himself hasn't. Given how rare wargs are supposed to be, I'd be surprised if it factored into Rhaegar's decision-making. It's just a bonus.

ETA: I think Arya suspects that she has some skill in this, but I doubt she connects it to the idea of "warging."

I'd be very surprised indeed if Arya made the connection - remember that Jon had to have it explained to him

[Stop Rhaegar HAMMERTIME!]

Good Job!
I must admit I was sucked in by all of the "Fire cannot hurt a Dragon" stuff!

[Ser Loudmouth]

Black Crow, on 17 February 2012 - 05:53 AM, said:

I'd be very surprised indeed if Arya made the connection - remember that Jon had to have it explained to him

Yes, but Jon can barely warg into Ghost, while Arya warged a cat and she can warg Nymeria from miles away. This makes me think that she does have a deeper understanding of her power, and has some ability to project it consciously, even if she doesn't exactly know the theory.

[The Shadowbinder]

Black Crow, on 17 February 2012 - 05:53 AM, said:

I'd be very surprised indeed if Arya made the connection - remember that Jon had to have it explained to him

I think she does, she brought home the cat and then warged it in order to trick the old man, not conclusive but it sounds pretty deliberate and Arya is smart.

If there's no such thing as "blood of the dragon" in the sense of being fire/disease resistant - then where do you guys think that belief arose from? Someone said the Targs spread it to increase their rep, but it'd be hard to convince a whole kingdom of shch remarkable abilities while having no evidence right?

A partial resistance to fire would nicely explain why the Valaryans were able to tame dragons in the first place. And I don't think it's crazy to think that the blood of the dragon may lessen the damage from a momentary blast of dragon breath or temporarily protect you during a blood magic ritual (involving dragons), while at the same time not protecting people from suicidally bad decisions like drinking wildfire, burning your family, or having molten gold poured on your head.

I'm not arguing for the Targ resistance theory but there is at least as much evidence as its true as not, and either way it's entirely conjecture so why get worked up about it. Fire proof and the thing with Jons hand is dumb though.

[Ygrain]

Ser Loudmouth, on 17 February 2012 - 06:45 AM, said:

Yes, but Jon can barely warg into Ghost, while Arya warged a cat and she can warg Nymeria from miles away. This makes me think that she does have a deeper understanding of her power, and has some ability to project it consciously, even if she doesn't exactly know the theory.

I think Arya uses it UNconsciously, especially with Nymeria. The instance with the cat was, IMHO, enabled by her training, which allowed her mind and senses to develop in rather unique ways, though even here, I don't think it was conscious (like, "hey, there's a cat, I'll try to look through its eyes"), rather, it simply happened.

[Apple Martini]

Ygrain, on 17 February 2012 - 05:41 AM, said:

I missed that part on the dragons' tempers, mainly because I keep confusing the two. However, what I give most credit to is Tyrion's correct prediction, based on his reading, that the dragons liked Plumm. - BTW, if I'm not mistaken, Dany also says "dragonS" - given that they were in frequent contact, the scene with Viseryon can't have been the only occasion. Even if Viseryon was friendlier than the other two and the easiest to make contact with, it still implies that the other dragons responded to the Targ bloodline, as well. IMHO.

*shrugs*

I'm still not convinced of this at all. I think it's mostly a case of us seeing the nicest dragon being nice on two occasions and reading too much into it. If, say, Rhaegal specifically is substantially better behaved in front of a stranger with Targaryen blood, then there might be something to it. But it's not saying much when the laziest and friendliest dragon is ... friendly. And again, just because Tyrion had a theory that turned out to be true doesn't necessarily imply causation.

We've seen the dragons interact with three people who have Targ blood: Dany, Plumm and Quentyn. Dany's their "mother," so obviously there's some attachment there. We only see Viserion, the friendliest dragon, take to Plumm. Despite it saying "dragons," we don't know specifically how Drogon or Rhaegal reacted. And Quentyn made headway with Viserion — again, the friendliest one — and was burned to death by Rhaegal. That's not something I'd want to hinge too much on.

I might have a theory that all brunettes can swim, based on what I've read in a book. If one brunette ends up swimming well, does that mean my theory is correct, or that there's a causal link between being a good swimmer and being a brunette?

[Ygrain]

*shrugs as well*
Not saying this _must_ be true, but when our clever little Imp does his homework on dragonlore, I wouldn't totally dismiss his conclusions.

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

I we believe that Jon is a Targaryen, he burned easily enough.

[Alia of the knife]

Apple Martini, on 17 February 2012 - 01:50 AM, said:

I think the only one who consciously thinks of himself as being a warg is Bran. If I remember correctly, some wildlings have figured out that Jon is a warg, but Jon himself hasn't. Given how rare wargs are supposed to be, I'd be surprised if it factored into Rhaegar's decision-making. It's just a bonus.

ETA: I think Arya suspects that she has some skill in this, but I doubt she connects it to the idea of "warging."

Thats kind of what I thought as well.

[Apple Martini]

Ygrain, on 17 February 2012 - 08:42 AM, said:

*shrugs as well*
Not saying this _must_ be true, but when our clever little Imp does his homework on dragonlore, I wouldn't totally dismiss his conclusions.

And who wrote that "homework" on dragonlore? Was it Septon Barth? Seems like a Targaryen Hand/stooge would have a good reason to write something like, "If you don't have Targ blood, keep away! Our super special Targ blood makes dragons like us and dislike you." Don't just look at what people say; look at their motivations for saying it. The Targ dynasty has good reasons to spread propaganda that 1. dragons are very, very difficult to kill and 2. they only like other Targs.

[Alia of the knife]

Bright Blue Eyes, on 17 February 2012 - 03:40 AM, said:

No. Wildlings may be a bit afraid, but they respect wargs. Varamyr is a special case because he killed his little brother while warging.
At least some of the old Kings in the North had to be wargs. There is a theory out there that's the reason why the Boltons took to flaying: They wanted to change their skin too, but lacked the talent. So they started wearing the literal skin of known skinchangers.

Had forgotten that, but true.

[Faint]

Apple Martini, on 17 February 2012 - 12:34 AM, said:

I hope he doesn't pull that stunt again. "I need a fire-resistant Targ for this to work" just feels like an easy cheat. I can accept Dany's one-round immunity because it had to do with outside magic and not so much with her Targ blood. If it happens again or happens to other Targs — I'm not talking about high tolerance, I'm talking about outright immunity — it'll be veering into, "So-and-so is dead, just kidding!" territory.

I have to say, I think the odds are very good that Jon pulls this off. The writer has already been teasing us with Tyrion possibly being immune to disease. And, like I said, GRRM has shown a pronounced tendency to repeat himself over and over and over again. Knowing him, there will be yet another character who is switched before being executed,another cliffhanger where a character is seemingly doomed only to appear again later, another character who is dead but is then later revived, and so on.

[Serie]

Imp Beyond the Wall, on 17 February 2012 - 09:09 AM, said:

I we believe that Jon is a Targaryen, he burned easily enough.

because Targs can be burned as well.

[Ser Loudmouth]

I have just found the exact text of the GRRM quote that is so often presented as evidence that Targaryens are not fire resistant. It says:

Quote

it was never the case that all Targaryens are immune to all fire at all times

To me, it looks like even just the first part of the quote would leave open the possibility that there is a "dragonrider gene" that some (but not all) Targaryens posess, and which might allso give them resistence to fire.
It seems to me that if GRRM wanted us to know that Targaryens are just like normal people he could have simply said "Targaryens are just like normal people" and be done with it.

[boojam]

How does all this stuff square with the Valyrians being dragons masters for , what?, thousands of years.
Noting that the Targs were pure Valyrian.

[zalim]

1) Targs fully immune? NOWAY
2) Like some starks are Wargs, some targs, again SOME TARGS and not all, may possess powers to resist fire but even their strenght is limited, they might be able to resist fire more thn others but not in 7 hells they are fully immune to the fire. Dany might be one of those Targs with "dragon blood in them".

[Nev yn]

I blame the show.  Book Dany only had one event where she was differently affected by fire or hot objects than normal people in the course of 5 books (hint: it's the one that Martin indicates was magical).  Even in the pit, any fire she encountered could not have been too bad because her clothes were still present (if worse for wear) -- this seems to indicate that her hair was simply singed off, and doesn't indicate any part of her caught fire.  She did have some impressive burn blisters on her hands, though, which she somehow ignores when giving herself the "hey, I am really fireproof" monologue, which indicates that she's crazy more than that she's fire resistant.

Show Dany had several within one season, and since so many people saw the show first that's the strongest impression people have.  So now, forevermore, you'll be stuck with people not giving up the idea that Targs are fire resistant.  The fireproof might disappear, but they won't want to shake off the resistance.  Because Dany grabbed those hot eggs without being burnt!  Of course, they were only hot to her...