Mayhaps This Was A Blessing - Who Killed Walder Frey?

[Loras]

"So young," said Wyman Manderly, "Though mayhaps this was a blessing. Had he lived, he would have grown up to be a Frey.

Little Walder Frey is murdered prior to the final THEON viewpoint in 'A Dance With Dragons'. The question remains as to who killed him and why.

Big Walder suggests that Little Walder was trying to win back coin from one of the White Harbour Knights. This inflames already tense relations between the Manderlys and the Freys.

The Freys, Hosteen and Aenys have been trying to provoke a fight between White Harbour and the Twins ever since their kin went missing on the journey to Winterfell. We know that Manderly is more than capable of killing Freys and disposing of them creatively.

So it seems that this course of events could have occurred, yet within the walls of Winterfell, nothing is quite as it seems.

I am intrigued by who committed the crime because there are a lot of different players and circumstance in such a small place. The death of Walder Frey has caused a cascade in terms of fallout.

Who had the most to gain? Or is there a much simpler explanation?

I will present my possible suspects and would appreciate anyone clearing any of them.

Suspect List

1. A Knight of White Harbour

* There is clear animosity between the two factions.

* Walder had the intention of getting back the coin he had lost while playing dice. He could have been armed.

* Ser Hosteen seems convinced of this, due to Big Walder's testimony. We know that the Frey's can lie and make the best out of a situation. Has Big Walder been coerced into pointing the finger at Manderly?

2. The Washerwomen

* Theon seems to be convinced that the Washerwomen are responsible for the deaths in Winterfell. The death is reminiscent of the MO of the other deaths. As per Big Walder, Small Walder went out into the snow alone.

* Squirrel denies that the death had anything to do with them.

* There was nothing sexual about this murder. In the case of Yellow Dick and one of the sentries, both were found sans clothes. This suggests that the Washerwomen are indeed innocent of this crime.

3. Big Walder

* Big Walder has not been happy about the influence that Ramsay has had on his cousin. This is evident as far back as REEK III. Could Big Walder simply have had enough of his cousin? Or could a fight have broken out?

* Big Walder knows to blame the Manderly men for the crime, which would definitely take him out of the spotlight. Is he using them as a scapegoat to mask his own crime?

4. The Hooded Man

* He threatens Theon - one of Ramsay's creatures - in the snow. Could he have killed another of them? Could this have been the man that Walder had been dicing with?

5. Barbrey Dustin

* Barbrey makes her contempt for the bastard (and the bastard's boys) known throughout the novel. Has she engineered this situation to put the spark to the tinder and thus drive a stake into Bolton's plans of ruling the north?

* There is definitely something up with her, she is not the Bolton loyalist she is portrayed to be.

------------------------------------------------------

I can't really think of anyone else - but any insight would be helpful!

[Mman]

It was either Ramsay or Big Walder.

[Gurkhal]

My bet is on the Manderly soldiers. Most likely Little Walder came alone and in a situation where there was no witnesses around and thus they struck and disposed of the body. While the Freys can lie I do not think that they are patheological liers and that Big Walder is telling how it came down.

It could've been the washerwomen I suppose but I don't think that they are killing off people as their main mission. The hooded man could of course be anyone but I don't think that Big Walder or lady Dustin had any reason to actually kill Little Walder. Big Walder might not have liked that Little Walder looked so much up to Ramsay but I don't think it would've been enough to commit an actual murder and draw upon himself a kineslayer curse.

[the Remarkable Other]

My money's on Big Walder, being splattered with blood and all.

He disliked Ramsay's influence on Little Walder and he was behind him in the line of succesion. It would make sense to blame the Manderlys, since the other Freys probably already suspect them for the deaths of Symond, Jared and Rhaegar. The Boltons certainly do.

[Bear Grylls of Skagos]

Its the hooded man for sure.

but I think Lady Dustin is one of the people who are plotting against the Boltons.

[Humphrey Plantagenet]

My money's on Big Walder, being splattered with blood and all.

He disliked Ramsay's influence on Little Walder and he was behind him in the line of succesion. It would make sense to blame the Manderlys, since the other Freys probably already suspect them for the deaths of Symond, Jared and Rhaegar. The Boltons certainly do.

This is what I think happened. But I agree entirely with Loras' comment "I am intrigued by who committed the crime because there are a lot of different players and circumstance in such a small place". The "why" and as much as the "who" is interesting and Big Walder's not the only suspect.

[Gurkhal]

I could see Dustin plotting against the Freys as she's expressed her hate for them but I'm not sure she's ready to turn against Roose. Of course if Roose would die and Ramsay becoome the next Lord of the Dreadfort that would be an entirely different thing.

[the Remarkable Other]

This is what I think happened. But I agree entirely with Loras' comment "I am intrigued by who committed the crime because there are a lot of different players and circumstance in such a small place". The "why" and as much as the "who" is interesting and Big Walder's not the only suspect.

Agreed. Manderly also had good reasons, since LW was betrothed to Wylla, his granddaughter. Ramsay doesn't really need a reason to kill someone, but perhaps the kid was blackmailing him (the silver coin that BW was talking about - maybe he was supposed to get it from Ramsay in exchange for his silence).

Most of the northern lords hate the Freys because of the RW. That could be reason enough for one of them.

[the Scorpion Knight]

Big Walder I think he's fed up with Ramsey, Little walder, being a Frey,manderly turning his relatives to pie and the wholesituation.

some how with this he grew a spot in my my heart

[Seekrit Targaryen]

Big Walder shows up in the hall spattered with blood from "finding" Little Walder, while the guy who actually carried Little Walder's body has no such spattering. It's hard to come up with an explanation that leaves Big Walder looking innocent.

[Dimadick]

Big Walder suggests that Little Walder was trying to win back coin from one of the White Harbour Knights. This inflames already tense relations between the Manderlys and the Freys.

Actually we don't know if this other player was from White Harbor. According to Big Walder Frey: "I told him not to go out, but he said he had to find a man who owed him silver". ... "He never said [which man], my lord. Only that he won the coin at dice". He then claims that some White Harbor men "taught dice", presumably to squires and green boys. Based on this tale we have two separate events:

*Little Walder Frey and others are taught the joys of gambling by some men from Manderly's army.

*Little Walder wins a game of dice against some unknown player. The guy owes him for a while and then Little Walder decides to confront him.

That Little Walder kept playing on against these same Manderrly men is an assumption.

Who had the most to gain?

Nobody seems to benefit financially. In terms of succession, all Freys lower than him in the succession order earn from his death. By the way I decided to check whether Little Walder was likely to succeed Lord Walder Frey at any point.

The Frey order of succession. Dead people in brackets.

*[stevron Frey]. Wounded in the Battle of Oxcross, died three days later.

*[Ryman Frey]. Executed by the Brotherhood Without Banners.

*1. Edwyn Frey. Still live and kicking. Last seen taking part in the Siege of Riverrun.

*2. Walda Frey. 9-years-old in 300.

*3. Black Walder Frey. Still alive. Last seen capturing Seagard.Though reputed to have many illegitimate children, he remains a bachelor.

*[Petyr "Pimple" Frey]. Executed by the Brotherhood Without Banners.

*4. Perra Frey. 6-years-old in 300.

*[Aegon "Jinglebell" Frey]. Killed by Catelyn Tully Stark during the Red Wedding. No known marriage or children.

*[Maegelle Frey]. Died in childbirth.

*5. Walder Vance. A young squire.

*6. Patrek Vance.

*7. Marianne Vance. Still a virgin.

*8. Walton Frey. Married to Deana Hardyng.

*9. Steffon "the Sweet" frey.

*10. Bryan Frey. A young squire.

*11. Fair Walda Frey. 19-years-old in 300.

*12. Emmon Frey, Lord of Riverrun. 62-years-old in 300 and still alive. Married to genna Lannister. His children are also part of the Lannister line of succession.

*[Cleos Frey]. Killed in an ambush by the Brave Companions.

*13. Tywin "Ty" Frey. Current heir to Riverrun. Contradictory information has him either as a squire or a knight.

*14. Willem Frey. A child. Serves as as a page at Ashemark, likely attached to a member of House Marbrand.

*15. Lyonel Frey. Married to Melesa Crakehall. The marriage remains childless.

*[Tion Frey]. Prisoner of war at Riverrun. Murdered by orders of Lord Rickard Karstark.

*16. Red Walder Frey. Last of the Frey-Lannister line. Currently 14-years-old. Still serves as a page at Casterly Rock. Likely attached to a member of House Lannister.

*17. Aenys Frey. Currently leads the Frey forces in Winterfell.

*18. Aegon "Bloodborn" Frey. An outlaw. No information on his current whereabouts.

*[Rhaegar Frey]. Went missing. Likely murdered by orders of Lord Wyman Manderly.

*19. Robert Frey. 14-years-old in 300.

*20. Jonos Frey. 9-years-old in 300.

*21. Walda Frey. 11-years-old in 300.

*[Jared Frey]. Went missing. Likely murdered by orders of Lord Wyman Manderly.

*[Tytos Frey]. Killed by Sandor Clegane during the Red Wedding.

*22. Zachery Frey. 13-years-old in 300. Listed as studying in Oldtown.

*23. Zia Frey. 15 years old in 300. Still a virgin.

*24. Kyra Frey. Widow of Garse Goodbrook.

*25. Walder Goodbrook. 10-years-old in 300.

*26. Jeyne Goodbrook. 7-years-old in 300.

*27. Luceon Frey. A Septon serving in the Great Sept of Baelor in King's Landing. He was a leading candidate for High Septon but lost the election to the High Sparrow. He would have to renounce his vows to inherit.

*28. Hosteen Frey. Currently serves with the Frey forces in Winterfell.

*29. Arwood Frey. Still alive. Last seen visiting Darry.

*30-31. Androw and Alyn Frey. Twins, 4-years-old in 300.

*32. Ryella Frey. 6-years-old in 300.

*33. Hostella Frey. 1-years-old in 300.

*[symond Frey]. Went missing. Likely murdered by orders of Lord Wyman Manderly.

*34. Alesander Frey. A singer.

*35. Bradamar Frey. 11-years-old in 300. Listed as a ward of Oro Tendyris, a merchant from Braavos.

*36. Alyx Frey. 19-years-old in 300. Still unwed.

*37. Danwell Frey. Married to Wynafrei Whent. All attempt at childbearing for this couple have resulted in stillbirths and miscarriages.

*[Merret Frey]. Executed by the Brotherhood Without Banners under the orders of Catelyn Tully Stark.

*[Little Walder Frey]. 38-in-line for the throne at the time of his death.

*38. 18-years-old in 300. Amerei "Gatehouse Ami" Frey. Widow of Pate of the Blue fork, currently married to Lancel Lannister. Uncertain how his recent monastic vows affect the marriage.

*39. Fat Walda Frey. 16-years-old in 300. Married to Roose Bolton.

*40. Marissa Frey. 14-years-old in 300. Currently resides in Castle Darry.

Technically Amerei benefits the most from her brother's death, rising in the succession line. But she is still rather low in position.

Or is there a much simpler explanation?

I will present my possible suspects and would appreciate anyone clearing any of them.

Suspect List

1. A Knight of White Harbour

* There is clear animosity between the two factions.

Wyman Manderly bears a grudge due to the death of his son Wendel Manderly at the Red Wedding. Unknown how many soldiers were lost at the same event.

Manderly might also have reasons to slay people close to Ramsay Bolton as retaliation. Remember the first wife of Ramsay, starved to death by her husband? Her maiden name was Donella Manderly.

* Walder had the intention of getting back the coin he had lost while playing dice. He could have been armed.

Little Walder supposedly won at dice and wanted to collect. There is no mention of him loosing money.

* Ser Hosteen seems convinced of this, due to Big Walder's testimony. We know that the Frey's can lie and make the best out of a situation. Has Big Walder been coerced into pointing the finger at Manderly?

Hosteen was already harboring sucpicions against Manderly. The murder and Manderly's jests might have served as enough provocation for the bull to see red. Remember Theon's view of him. "Hosteen was a bull, slow to anger but implacable once roused, and by repute the fiercest fighter of Lord Walder's get."

If you want to find a manipulator, then check Aenys. Not much of a swordsman. But "older, crueler, and more clever" than Hosteen. Though foxlike Big Walder himself might be the source of a lie. Remember what he thinks of Wyman Manderly. Concerning his missing cousins: "They're dead. Lord Wyman had them killed. That's what I would done if I was him." If he believes Lord Wyman killed three Freys, why not add a fourth murder to the list?

* Squirrel denies that the death had anything to do with them.

Actually its Rowan who denies Theon's accusations. Theon "glanced at Rowan. ... But the washerowman felt his eyes. ""This was no work of ours."" Later Theon confronts her again with his accusation. Rowan shouts "Not us" and then grabbs him from the throat. "Say it again and I will rip your lying tongue out, kinslayer."

Curiously none of the other women, nor Mance offer any input on the subject. Rowan wants to shut Theon up. The others have nothing to say.

3. Big Walder

* Big Walder has not been happy about the influence that Ramsay has had on his cousin. This is evident as far back as REEK III. Could Big Walder simply have had enough of his cousin? Or could a fight have broken out?

* Big Walder knows to blame the Manderly men for the crime, which would definitely take him out of the spotlight. Is he using them as a scapegoat to mask his own crime?

He is my favorite suspect due to a curiosity in the way Theon describes the scene. There is apparently no blood on Hosteen Frey who is actually transporting the corpse. "The cold outside had frozen his [Little Walder's] blood". But Big Walder is thoroughly covered in blood. "His chest and arms and cloak were spaterred with blood"... the boy's gloves were caked with his cousin's blood."

Which suggests that Big Walder had contact with the body prior to it freezing. Possibly during or shortly after the murder.

4. The Hooded Man

* He threatens Theon - one of Ramsay's creatures - in the snow. Could he have killed another of them? Could this have been the man that Walder had been dicing with?

We don't really know anything of this man. Other than the direction of his nightly walk. Theon is exiting the Great Hall of Winterfell. The Hooded Man is walking towards the Hall. The curiosity with him is that seeing Theon seems a surprise for him. "Theon Turncloak. Theon Kinslayer. ... How is it you still breathe?" Did this guy fail to notice Theon at the wedding?

5. Barbrey Dustin

* Barbrey makes her contempt for the bastard (and the bastard's boys) known throughout the novel. Has she engineered this situation to put the spark to the tinder and thus drive a stake into Bolton's plans of ruling the north?

See is not exactly a great fan of House Frey either. Notice her words to Aenys Frey. "Lord Wyman is not the only man who lost kin at your Red Wedding, Frey. Do you imagine Whoresbane loves you any better? If you did not hold the Greatjon, he would pull out your entrails and make you eat them, as Lady Hornwood ate her fingers. Flints, Tallharts, Slates... they all had men with the Young Wolf. ... Even Dustins out of Barrowton. ... The north remembers, Frey."

She seems to be one of many Northern lords who hold grudges against the Freys. For the time being they can't act. But I got the impression that the North's grudges tend to last generations.

[Loras]

Agreed. Manderly also had good reasons, since LW was betrothed to Wylla, his granddaughter. Ramsay doesn't really need a reason to kill someone, but perhaps the kid was blackmailing him (the silver coin that BW was talking about - maybe he was supposed to get it from Ramsay in exchange for his silence).

Most of the northern lords hate the Freys because of the RW. That could be reason enough for one of them.

The point you make about Manderly is excellent. As Little Walder is betrothed to Wylla, Manderly really needs him out of the way if he plans to marry Wylla to Rickon. I guess that Manderly is one of the only lords within Winterfell who is aware that Bran and Rickon survived the Sack. Wylla also seems to be the only candidate for betrothal to Rickon, that would increase Manderly's standing in the North.

Thanks for pointing out my mistake with regards to the Manderly men. Does that make Big Walder even more suspicious? The information he gives about the Manderly men is irrelevant to the actual situation, but it is incriminating.

As for Dustin, she definitely does not want to see Ramsay ruling the North. At the wedding feast she mentions Donella Hornwood's fingers and we must remember that Roose's first wife was Barbrey's sister - thus making Domeric Bolton her nephew. Has Manderly involved her in his plots? Someone mentions that he spends hours at a time in the privvy - and we all know that he spends that time plotting rather than anything else!

Was her trip into the crypts to gain the proof of Manderley's words?

What about Abel? We know that he would be capable and there are similarities to the Washerwomen murders?

[Winter's Lady]

I believe it was the Hooded Man. In my personal crackpot he's an Umber spy and had pretty much reason to kill any Frey in sight. :smoking:

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

It was Manderly. Forget about Rickon, Little Walder is Ramsay's butt buddy, he can't let Wyla marry him after hearing "Arya" weeping all that time.

[David C. Hunter]

I've been wanting both Litlle and Big Walder since the first Bran chapter in ACOK. I despise them and they couldnt die fast enough. At this point does it really matter who killed him? If it is then I would have to agree that it was the hooded man

[jarl the climber]

I beleived that the older Freys had him killed and made Little Walder tell the story about the White Harbor men, which didn't ring true.

[ElizaMartell]

The Frey's are going to eat each other before that curse from the Red Wedding kicks in.

[Slurms McKenzie]

It was the Eddard Stark poltergeist, making a nuisance of himself again..........

[Ser Ilyn's Tongue]

I don't think it was the washerwomen or Barbrey Dustin (but then again we know very little about her true plans). It could be the hooded man, if we knew something more about him it might be easier to confirm/discount him.

I had always assumed it was Big Walder because I liked the idea of the Freys turning on each other. But the arguments here for Manderly are really convincing. And he was ultra cool when he found out the news. Mayhaps it was a rehearsed line? He certainly has the most to gain (Rickon) from it.

It could be we never find out...

[jarl the climber]

The reason I think it was a frey plot is because they seemed better prepared to fight, Manderlys men only had knives, Hosteens men had their swords on them.