Dany, Jon & Tyrion : Connected Since Birth?

[The Drunkard]

Yes! The rape situation (though speculated) makes me think of this quote in AFfC about Ramsay Bolton: "The evil is in his blood. He is a bastard born of rape. A Snow no matter what the boy king says."

I think this is said to make a parallel with Jon, and maybe Dany and Tyrion. That they are born of rape, supposedly "evil", all of them underdogs at the beginning of the story, and they could rule the whole land in the end. In book 4, talking about Volantis, they mention that the city has 3 rulers, to balance things out. So that there is no dictature of one person. I think this is foreshadowing of what's to come.

So Ramsay is on his way to the Iron Throne. I knew it.

[Lemiin]

So Ramsay is on his way to the Iron Throne. I knew it.

Hmm I'm not sure if your joke is just a joke, or if you think I think Ramsay will rule...

I meant that people think about children born of rape as "evil" in the series, and everyone underestimated Jon, Dany and Tyrion at some point in the novels, that's why I think it would be pretty ironic if they happened to rule the seven kingdoms.

But nevermind if your joke was just for the sake of the joke ;)

[The Night's Prince]

Not Tyrion. Just no. Dany and Jon, perhaps yes but definitely never Tyrion. Never.

[Incest_La_Vie]

Dany and Tyrion also have the connection of being born from incest or near incest (Tywin and Joanna were first cousins). What could this mean for Jon...?

[Ted Miller]

OK...long time lurker...

Just started re-reading for the first time. Going over each paragraph with a fine tooth comb. I had always been fond of the R+L=J theory. Those threads are a chore to get through!

I think it's pretty obvious that Lyanna is Jon's mom. Pretty obvious she was also in love with Rhaegar.

I didn't like the theory of Tyrion as a Targaryan at first but now I'm convinced of it as well. I don’t think he’s some long lost cousin. I started thinking "How could Rhaegar be Tyrion's father?” That’s when I started to think maybe Aerys was Tyrion’s father. Then I started thinking about how Tywin and Aerys had an odd feud and there was something about Aerys joking about First Night at Tywin’s wedding and Aerys having some fling in Casterly Rock. I think somewhere along the line Aerys raped Joanna Lannister

Then it didn’t make sense to me that IF the above is true (and according to prophecies), why would two Targs be siblings and one be a nephew. That’s when I thought that perhaps Aerys had also raped Lyanna. He was mad after all and there is mention that he thought Rhaegar was plotting against him. GRR Martin has alluded to Jon’s dad as Luke Skywalker to Darth Vader. If Rhaegar was actually this great person who would have made a great ruler, why is that like Darth Vader?

What got me thinking about them being siblings was because of the original “Dance of the Dragons” about siblings vying for power.

So perhaps all three mothers died during childbirth. There I read somewhere that the mothers represented eggs. Aerys had other children yes, but maybe this is where there is blood magic involved. Who has been around all the time? Varys.

I think perhaps Aegon is who he says. Then there is power struggle between the three sibling of Rhaegar and his son.

[Ted Miller]

Please poke holes in my theory if you can. I'm reading with these assumptions in mind and am looking for clues to support it.

[Twinslayer]

Please poke holes in my theory if you can. I'm reading with these assumptions in mind and am looking for clues to support it.

Welcome, Ted.

Just to understand your theory, it sounds like you have Rhaegar hiding Lyanna to protect her from his father. Is that right?

And do you have Aerys getting to Lyanna first, and then Rhaegar comes to rescue her from Aerys? Or does Rhaegar (kidnap her or run away with her and then) take her to King's Landing, then Aerys attacks her, then Rhaegar takes her away for safekeeping?

[The Dragon has three heads]

Interesting, but I'm sure if Rhaegar loved her, and his father raped her. He would have declared war, but there is something tragic about Rhaegar having to defend the crown knowing what his father had done...and it might also lend some weight to why the KG were at the TOJ, if they knew of the rape as well, but, woukd tht defend aerys' bastard? When there were true born children of Rhaegar AND Aerys elsewhere? I doubt it. Something else is going on.

[The Red Hand]

Please poke holes in my theory if you can. I'm reading with these assumptions in mind and am looking for clues to support it.

I think it unlikely that Aerys raped Lyanna. We only hear about them being even close to each other during the tourney at Harrenhal. After that Rhaegar kidnapped her and took her to the ToJ. I'm pretty sure someone would have mentioned the king traveling there for any reason. Jon being the nephew of Dany and Tyrion may mean that hes the main Targaryen. If we assume that Jon is Rhaegar's son, Dany Rhaegar's sister, and Tyrion Aery's bastard then Jon has the best claim to the Iron Throne.

[Danelle]

:agree: But, the Tywin dislike of Tyrion could be for this reason, the one that it´s not his son (or at least he suspects of it) is the one who really think like him

This is what Tywin thinks of Tyrion's parentage:

“You ask that? You, who killed your mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning. Men’s laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine. To teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father’s sigil and his father’s before him. But neither gods nor men shall ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse.”

So Tywin blames Tyrion for killing Joanna and at the same time considers him a bastard and says that there is no way for him to prove that the child is not his. Perhaps this could be a hint that Tywin suspected Aerys of raping Joanna. It is strange that in the same time Tywin grieves Joanna and claims that Tyrion is her child but not his.

I think that GRRM stated that the three heads don't necessarily have to be Targaryen, in that case Tyrion is not a Targaryen but officially a Lannister and unofficially a Hill.

[Ted Miller]

I'm uncertain of the chronology of how this would work. First read through I went pretty quickly through the tourney at Harrenhall and the ToJ. I don’t know when Aerys and Lyanna were ever in the same location.

I read something this morning that got me thinking…when Eddard meets Catelyn in Kings Landing with Littlefinger he mentions something about Sansa pleading about killing Lady being like Lyanna pleading. I went back to read about Sansa pleading and she says “No, no, no…make them stop” THEM??!?!

Perhaps Eddard was witness? Perhaps Rhaegar did not know?

Where in the timeline is Lord Rickard and Brandon’s deaths? Before or after the rebellion started? After the Harrenhall tourney?

[Ted Miller]

oops...double post

[The Snowman]

Tourney of Harrenhal is where Lyanna and Rhaegar first met Then there's the whole Knight of the Laughing Tree scenario to be played out. It was also close to a year before Lyanna was 'kidnapped'. Now if Lyaana is Jon's mother than she HAS to have fallen pregnant during the rebellion as he is supposed to have been born within a month of Robb being born. Remember the story of Ned fathering Jon on a fisherman's daughter while on his way from the Vale to the raise the Northern army. He then married Catelyn at Riverrun and fathered Robb.

My point is that Jon needed to look around the same age as Robb and if he is not Ned's bastard then he has to be Lyanna's son by Rhaegar and if he isn't GRRM is a total troll.

So anyway I don't believe Rhaegar would have hid Lyanna if Aerys had raped her. He would have helped overthrow his father.

[TheLostStark]

I think it is all liked to AA and the last hero. Supposedly AA killed Nissa Nissa to make his blade indestructable ( can't quote, sorry) Maybe the deaths of the mothers is in some way the link that makes them all the new "Last Hero's."

Its also stated in the prophecy that the dragon has three heads. Not three dragons but one. I think that means The Targ family and not the actual dragons. The three heads are up for debate but I think on this forum we have made that conclusion.

In response to this thread

"So anyway I don't believe Rhaegar would have hid Lyanna if Aerys had raped her. He would have helped overthrow his father."

Before Rheagar left for the battle at the trident he told Jamie Lannister that when he returned things would change. Maybe he was focusing on the larger battle outside of the family and once that was done focusing on the problems within the family.

[KOM]

Dudes, 3rd head of the dragon... Brown Ben Plumm. Two drops of dragon blood.

[Kienn]

Only death pays for life... - no

Only death pays for DRAGONS - the 2 legged and winged kinds.

Mainly it reveals that dragons really are not the good guys, they are the evil blood magic users and they won't be saving anything.

[cealicu_ca]

Hi,

Please excuse my "noobishness" on the whole matter as i've barely managed to finish reading the books a week ago (or so).

Anyhow, i think that there are two possible theories:

1. The three dragon heads are Dany (pretty obvious), Jon (well, it's kind of obvious that R+L=J LOL) and Tyrion. For the ladder, as someone else has said, there are only indirect hints (and the strongest, imho, is the fact that i think it's Ol'Barristan who recalls some visit that Aerys made to CR and joked about First Night being reinstituted, as well as having some sort of "fling" while he stayed there). Personally i would not dislike this as it would mean that 3 of my favorite characters will play an important role (Tyrion being the first). But it's... i don't know, it doesn't seem to "fit" right into the whole story so it got me thinking on the following...

2. One of the dragon heads is Dany, that i could even bet on. As for the other two, maybe we have to look at the dragons. I really believe there will be a connection between the dragons (their personalities - if we could speak of such) and their riders. Another head might be Gendry, as he does indeed have royal (dragon) blood (being a Baratheon bastard which in turn was a Targarien bastard). The third one - who knows, but i don't think it's that important... yet.

What's important though is that Jon will NOT be riding any dragon.

Jon will instead lead the Others (whom may not be as dark as they seem). George presents things not in black and white, but in shades of gray (this is what i like most probably) and while there are indeed some pretty straight evil characters here (like Bolton's bastard) most are evil only from a point of view stand. Certainly neither Cersei, nor even Joffrey are evil form a Lannister point of view. Cersei wishes power both for herself AND for her kids, and for Lannister house in general (and her being a Queen is rather due to her wanting to show her father what she can do, rather than simply being in love with Power...), while Joffrey really believes that he is his father's son and wants what's the best for the kingdom (yeah... he's still evil :P).

Point is that good and evil is on both sides, and i think that this will be true even for the White Walkers. The dragons already have a dark side (killing innocents, getting out of control and whatnot) while the White Walkers are presented (as of yet) as being pure evil. Geroge doesn't seem to like pure stuff. So they most likely have some "light side" too...

Another thing is that in order to have "the" battle of the ages we need both opponents to be lead by some serious heroes, people whom we both like or hate with pretty much the same intensity. If Rob, for example, would have died because... let's say the Ironborns would have killed him, it would not have had the same impact as the Lannisters plotting (and succeeding) in killing him.

So for a climax we need both Yin and Yang. Jon will provide the "counter" to Dany. And while i'm at it, the person who will provide the balance between the two is most likely Tyrion. Remember, he felt attracted (like in a friend way) to Jon and when they last saw each other the word "friends" was shared between them. It may be a fluke, or some far fetched stuff but it would be to easy to have both Jon and Dany on the same side. We NEED some important character (other than Bran - whom we still don't know what relation has with the White Walers, though the specualtions that the COTF are in league with the Others is impossible i think considering they fought against them and provided weapons to kill them).

As i already mentioned in another thread, i strongly believe Jon will not die. He is just having his "fall", the same way his little brother had, in order for him to start his journey towards accepting and becoming whoever he was meant to be. The White Walkers champion.

Who knows, maybe in the end it will be Jon who will put an end to the White Walkers (kind'of the Darth Vader of the White Walkers :-)))) )... Thus becoming the promised hero. Remember SW and the "chosen one prophecy"? "Misread the prophecy might have been" LOL.

Yes, funny stuff. What do you guys say? spit-balling :)

[Pikachu101]

I don't know about blood magic, but this connection makes them good candidates for the dragon riders positions, and saviors of Westeros

God no! :stillsick:

Same goes for people who think that:

A) Tyrion isn't Tywin's even though he's the most like him

B ) Dany would actually think Aegon's a fake and Jon's the real deal

C) Bran plays no part at all in defeating the Others

[Woodfoot of the North]

I don't know about Tyrion being a Targ or about them all riding dragons, but I think they'll have a connection through experiences.

Cripples, Bastards and Broken Things.

[Daenerys will be my queen]

I don't belive that Tyrion is a targ. But he is the only one to read everything about dragons. He might just be able to train them to let him ride without being a targ.

As for Jon, he may have to ride (I believe the R+L=J theory) just to defeat the WW. Even after his brothers turned on him. He swore an oath to protect the 7K.