Dany, Jon & Tyrion : Connected Since Birth?

[Woodfoot of the North]

I believe R+L=J as well, and that Jon will probably rise above the rest. It's funny that it's almost just accepted knowledge by now. (Imagine the butthurt if it turns out he isn't?)

I'm still unsure about Tyrion being a rider. Who else would be a candidate I wonder?

[Pikachu101]

If Jon rides a dragon it will be because of his Stark roots; he can warg into one of them.

I think the three heads are:

Dany (fire)

Bran (ice)

Aegon (the mummer's dragon)

Tyrion would take one look at Dany and see a Cersei in the making

[Khal Shaggydog]

As to the OP, I totally see the significance in their childbirths. We really only have Dany and Tyrion as actually confirmed - and if you completely drill down, we can only really rely on Tyrions story. We get the story of Dany's mom being killed in childbirth through Viserys/Darry, and whatever gossip might have trickled down from the smallfolk on Dragonstone during the storm. But no matter - I think we can take it from the general canon that Dany's mother died during childbirth.

As to Jon - if we're going to proceed on just a theory, (which I am OK with), we still have to balance the entire premise against the possibility that Lyanna isnt Jon's mother. We just dont know. But I'll say its most likely that he is Lyanna's son - I feel confident we have enough proof of that. As to his father? My leading theory is of course Rheagar - but again we dont have any defniitive proof. If we're willing to believe that Rheagar and Lyanna were in love, or at least romantically connected, then I support the theory that MAYBE Aerys II (great king and father that he was) could have possibly raped Lyanna at the Tourney of Haranhall, or shortly thereafter. He was already jealous of his dashing son, he was paranoid that the Tourney itself was a clandestine meeting of the Lords for Rhaegar to orchestrate a coup (this has never been cleared up either way either). Given what we know of Aerys' mindset at the Tourney - pissed off, scared of his son, distrustful of his lords, it is entirely possible that he saw the attraction his son had to Lyanna and caused them both pain to show he was powerful. This is similar to the theories out there regarding Aerys II and Joanna - he was jealous and distrustful of Tywin in the same way as he was towards Rheagar, and the most painful way of asserting his power and dominance would be as some have suspected - raping their women.

Please correct me if Im missing a timeline piece here - but since the prophacies point to the PTWP coming from Aerys's line, and we have a possibility that Aerys is the father of these three characters, and each of their mothers died in childbirth, then the points add up. Even if this is true, I dont necessarily think this means each will be a dragonrider, I think there is room in any of the vague prophacies to mix and match. I just dont see Jon riding a dragon.

[Squire Dalbridge]

Somehow the idea of Dany, Jon and Tyrion riding the dragons sounds dull. (And how would Tyrion manage to do that, with special saddle?)

And mother dying while giving birth, or soon after, must have been common (in medieval times). There must be many others alike in Westeros - wasn't Edmure Tully one (or Lysa if she's younger)??

Be that as it may, for me those three are still the strongest candidates (along with Bran) to have major roles in the great war that's to become.

[space]

Whats clear though is that these three are "the" main protagonists of the story...

you could say sansa arya theon cersei jamie and bran are right up there...but realistically I think that cast is one tier below "the big three"

i'm pretty sure the three riders are either going to be them...or a greyjoy and a martell...either way its inevitable that tyron/jon/and dany will all meet at one point (little did jon and tyrion know when they were marching up the to wall they would end up being 2/3rds of the most important people in the world=P)

[Woodfoot of the North]

While they will all meet up eventually, I don't think Jon will be the first Stark Dany meets.

Maybe Arya incognito? I agree with the theories that Arya is going to be ordered to take out Daenerys, which might be a catalyst for Dany's meeting with the rest of the Starks.

[naik2902]

most of the book readers are not agree about tyrion being targ . but the tv show itself gives hint. the words between tywin and tyrion tells u that he is targ. see the last episode

tywin to tyrion: " i wanted to carry you in the sea and let the waves wash u away. instead i let u live. and i brought u as my son. coz u r a lannister."

[Woodfoot of the North]

But if Tywin even suspected Tyrion wasn't a Lannister, he would let the waves wash him away.

Twyin wouldn't suffer Aerys' bastard under his roof and name, especially when it could threaten the true Lannisters on the Throne. So in effect, the TV series is kind of confirming that Tyrion is a Lannister.

[Aderyn the Sly]

Please correct me if Im missing a timeline piece here - but since the prophacies point to the PTWP coming from Aerys's line, and we have a possibility that Aerys is the father of these three characters, and each of their mothers died in childbirth, then the points add up. Even if this is true, I dont necessarily think this means each will be a dragonrider, I think there is room in any of the vague prophacies to mix and match. I just dont see Jon riding a dragon.

It was said that the PwwP would come of Aerys and Rhaella's line. That's why Jaehaerys II made them wed, after hering this from the woodwitch (who some say is the same from High Heart) who was brought to court with Jenny of Oldstones. Rhaegar was born a year later at the Tragedy of Summerhall which makes us think he though he was the PwwP.

[profilebegone]

most of the book readers are not agree about tyrion being targ . but the tv show itself gives hint. the words between tywin and tyrion tells u that he is targ. see the last episode

tywin to tyrion: " i wanted to carry you in the sea and let the waves wash u away. instead i let u live. and i brought u as my son. coz u r a lannister."

But if Tywin even suspected Tyrion wasn't a Lannister, he would let the waves wash him away.

Twyin wouldn't suffer Aerys' bastard under his roof and name, especially when it could threaten the true Lannisters on the Throne. So in effect, the TV series is kind of confirming that Tyrion is a Lannister.

Forgetting about whether the show has any validity in discussing this, this only confirms that Tywin thinks Tyrion is a Lannister, or has no evidence to the contrary (and therefore can't become a kinslayer and kill his own son). That doesn't mean he's right. And frankly, while I do think Tyrion is part of the inevtable Three-Headed AzorPrince DragonRider Prophecy Machine (hey, now I have a great name for my retro 80s hair metal band) he doesn't have to be a Targaryen to do so. There are enough other similarities between him, Jon, and Dany - third children, mothers died in childbirth, outcasts - that you can kind of be indifferent to whether Aerys is his dad (or, vastly more unlikely, Rhaegar) in terms of his likelihood of being part of the THAPDRPM. He definitely is.

[Woman of War]

I do not favor either side, but Tyrion would be a Lannister no matter who his father is: Joanna was a Lannister.

[Dragonmag170]

As to the OP, I totally see the significance in their childbirths. We really only have Dany and Tyrion as actually confirmed - and if you completely drill down, we can only really rely on Tyrions story. We get the story of Dany's mom being killed in childbirth through Viserys/Darry, and whatever gossip might have trickled down from the smallfolk on Dragonstone during the storm. But no matter - I think we can take it from the general canon that Dany's mother died during childbirth.

As to Jon - if we're going to proceed on just a theory, (which I am OK with), we still have to balance the entire premise against the possibility that Lyanna isnt Jon's mother. We just dont know. But I'll say its most likely that he is Lyanna's son - I feel confident we have enough proof of that. As to his father? My leading theory is of course Rheagar - but again we dont have any defniitive proof. If we're willing to believe that Rheagar and Lyanna were in love, or at least romantically connected, then I support the theory that MAYBE Aerys II (great king and father that he was) could have possibly raped Lyanna at the Tourney of Haranhall, or shortly thereafter. He was already jealous of his dashing son, he was paranoid that the Tourney itself was a clandestine meeting of the Lords for Rhaegar to orchestrate a coup (this has never been cleared up either way either). Given what we know of Aerys' mindset at the Tourney - pissed off, scared of his son, distrustful of his lords, it is entirely possible that he saw the attraction his son had to Lyanna and caused them both pain to show he was powerful. This is similar to the theories out there regarding Aerys II and Joanna - he was jealous and distrustful of Tywin in the same way as he was towards Rheagar, and the most painful way of asserting his power and dominance would be as some have suspected - raping their women.

Please correct me if Im missing a timeline piece here - but since the prophacies point to the PTWP coming from Aerys's line, and we have a possibility that Aerys is the father of these three characters, and each of their mothers died in childbirth, then the points add up. Even if this is true, I dont necessarily think this means each will be a dragonrider, I think there is room in any of the vague prophacies to mix and match. I just dont see Jon riding a dragon.

Your timeline is a wee bit off- Roberts Rebellion lasted close to a year, and it only started a few months after the tourney at harrenhal. Ned went to the ToJ at the very end of the war. If we are going off of the assumption that Lyanna is Jon's mother and she died giving birth to him (which I think is a very good one) then it isnt possible for Aerys to have raped her at the Tourney.

HOWEVER. I have had the thought for a while now that Aerys is, in fact, Jon's father. My own theory on it requires a good bit of guesswork and assumption, and is built more on Dany's parallel of Argon I Targaryan crossing with his two sisters.

If Lyanna did go with Rhaegar willingly (which is likely) then my personal theory is that she would have married him, too. This would have happened close to the beginning of the war, and he "kidnapped her" from the north, if I remember correctly. Add a month or two for everyone to travel before the war starts, and this works time-wise.

Now, lets assume they wanted to get married, but wanted it to be a low-key affair (as half the kingdom now wants Rhaegar dead). Perhaps it was a situation not unlike the one with Sansa and Tryion's marriage- her father could not give her away, so her king had to. We also know that, at some point, Aerys had joked with Tywin Lannister (on his wedding night) about wishing that the "first night" tradition (which allowed a king or superior lord to take the maidenhood of a newly-wed wife before the husband bedded her) was still around, because he thought Johanna was hot.

My theory is this: What if Aerys, upon seeing the chaos that his son had caused, decided to use the first night tradition on his new wife? There are many theories that Aerys was becoming suspicious of his son- if this is true, then it seems likely that Aerys would not have wanted Rhaegar to have more true-born children who could claim the throne. If he used the tradition as an excuse, and Lyanna became pregnant from the encounter, then Jon would be Aerys's son. This way, the timelines also add up- Rhaegar could have kidnapped Lyanna, run by king's landing to get married, then fled to the ToJ.

As to the OP: I do think that MArtin wants us too see a connection between Jon, Dany, and Tyrion. There are far too many obvious/subtle hints about them being connected for them not to be, in my mind. Maybe not by blood... but they will each play important parts in each other's story lines, very soon.

[grand old duke of stark]

A bit of devils advocacy here:

It's a bit odd that these prophecies were made to Targaryens and are interpreted by Targaryens, isn't it? What if the woods witch was merely flattering the ruling family? What if Rhaegar was reading his own family into everything he studied? GRRM take most prophecies seriously, right enough. But if there were a non-Targ confirmation I would be more convinced.

[Pikachu101]

Somehow the idea of Dany, Jon and Tyrion riding the dragons sounds dull.

Agree, it's so painstakingly dull and cliche :stillsick:

[Khal Shaggydog]

Dragonmag170 - you're on to the same inkling that I am - that due to Aerys being suspicious/jealous of Rheagar, he raped Rheagars new wife which resulted in Jon. I don't think it had to be at the Tourney, and probably makes more sense if it wasn't, but in the time traveling back to KL, or wherever the royal party meandered to, it could have happened. It would provide further explanation of why Rheagar brought Lyanna to the TOJ (at least we are SURE that she was there, and that was where Ned found her an made her dying promise), it would also further support the reasoning of the heavy KG presence at the TOJ. It could be that Aerys wasn't aware at all of the child, but Rheagar certainly was, and Rheagar might have even thought it was his (and if there was a rape, there is really no way we'll ever know who was the father).

Anyway, making the connection between Targaryan blood and childbirth death, and we end up with these three. And each is special in another way - each has animal dreams. Dany and the dragons (even before they are hatched). Tyrion and dragons (we shouldn't overlook this). And of course Jon and Ghost. Although this entire thought process is fraught with speculation, there are certain rock solid points that I think we can rely on - the significance of dreams and the significance of any character's relationship with mystical beasts. Overlap those major points with the fact that we suspect each of these three characters to have been born into this world while their mothers died (blood for blood and life for life), and I think something will come of it.

I also just cant see Jon being a dragonrider, and the fact that he never had dragon dreams helps me to support this theory in my head. Perhaps the wolf is his primary connection.

[profilebegone]

Your timeline is a wee bit off- Roberts Rebellion lasted close to a year, and it only started a few months after the tourney at harrenhal. Ned went to the ToJ at the very end of the war. If we are going off of the assumption that Lyanna is Jon's mother and she died giving birth to him (which I think is a very good one) then it isnt possible for Aerys to have raped her at the Tourney.

HOWEVER. I have had the thought for a while now that Aerys is, in fact, Jon's father. My own theory on it requires a good bit of guesswork and assumption, and is built more on Dany's parallel of Argon I Targaryan crossing with his two sisters.

If Lyanna did go with Rhaegar willingly (which is likely) then my personal theory is that she would have married him, too. This would have happened close to the beginning of the war, and he "kidnapped her" from the north, if I remember correctly. Add a month or two for everyone to travel before the war starts, and this works time-wise.

Now, lets assume they wanted to get married, but wanted it to be a low-key affair (as half the kingdom now wants Rhaegar dead). Perhaps it was a situation not unlike the one with Sansa and Tryion's marriage- her father could not give her away, so her king had to. We also know that, at some point, Aerys had joked with Tywin Lannister (on his wedding night) about wishing that the "first night" tradition (which allowed a king or superior lord to take the maidenhood of a newly-wed wife before the husband bedded her) was still around, because he thought Johanna was hot.

My theory is this: What if Aerys, upon seeing the chaos that his son had caused, decided to use the first night tradition on his new wife? There are many theories that Aerys was becoming suspicious of his son- if this is true, then it seems likely that Aerys would not have wanted Rhaegar to have more true-born children who could claim the throne. If he used the tradition as an excuse, and Lyanna became pregnant from the encounter, then Jon would be Aerys's son. This way, the timelines also add up- Rhaegar could have kidnapped Lyanna, run by king's landing to get married, then fled to the ToJ.

As to the OP: I do think that MArtin wants us too see a connection between Jon, Dany, and Tyrion. There are far too many obvious/subtle hints about them being connected for them not to be, in my mind. Maybe not by blood... but they will each play important parts in each other's story lines, very soon.

As to the PtwP being born of A&R's line - that could apply solely to Dany, right? Like, Azor Ahai is actually three people, and only one of them (or maybe two, depending if you count Jon) is actually of that line, but that you still need that line to produce one of them?

I think there is also a 0% chance that J=anything other than R+L, though.

[Wopsidaisy]

When it comes to the whole thing of Aerys raping Lyanna and being the father of jon, undepending of whether or not it happened that way, you seem to forget that Rhaeghar was already married to Elia Martell, and if I remeber correctly she wasn't killed until the sacking of King's Landing. This should mean that Rhaeghar couldn't have married Lyanna since he was still married to Elia at the time of his own death. Or did I get it wrong when it comes to Elia's death?

When it comes to the heritage of Tyrion I do believe that his dragon dreams of young are important, just as Khal Shaggydog mentioned. It is repetedly mentioned in the books that Targaryens deamed of Dragons, even long after the death of the last dragons.

This is something that makes me wonder about Jon, because I do believe that he is the son of Rhaeghar and Lyanna, but the fact that it is never mentioned that he dreamt of Dragons is odd according to me. Concerning his direwolf dreams, I believe that those aren't actually dreams, it's him waring in to Ghost, he just doesn't want to admit to being a warg so he calls them dreams to fool himself. In the same manner that Bran and Arya call them dreams, only they do it because they don't know what wargs are.

About the whole prophecy of "the chosen one", I can only fit Dany in to it, she was born during a storm in smoke and salt (I don't remember the exact wording of the prophecy), and she woke stone dragons (the ages had turned the dragon eggs in to stone as Illyrio mopatis tells her). Can anybody fit Jon or Tyrion in to the prophecy in any way?

[Dragonmag170]

When it comes to the whole thing of Aerys raping Lyanna and being the father of jon, undepending of whether or not it happened that way, you seem to forget that Rhaeghar was already married to Elia Martell, and if I remeber correctly she wasn't killed until the sacking of King's Landing. This should mean that Rhaeghar couldn't have married Lyanna since he was still married to Elia at the time of his own death. Or did I get it wrong when it comes to Elia's death?

When it comes to the heritage of Tyrion I do believe that his dragon dreams of young are important, just as Khal Shaggydog mentioned. It is repetedly mentioned in the books that Targaryens deamed of Dragons, even long after the death of the last dragons.

This is something that makes me wonder about Jon, because I do believe that he is the son of Rhaeghar and Lyanna, but the fact that it is never mentioned that he dreamt of Dragons is odd according to me. Concerning his direwolf dreams, I believe that those aren't actually dreams, it's him waring in to Ghost, he just doesn't want to admit to being a warg so he calls them dreams to fool himself. In the same manner that Bran and Arya call them dreams, only they do it because they don't know what wargs are.

About the whole prophecy of "the chosen one", I can only fit Dany in to it, she was born during a storm in smoke and salt (I don't remember the exact wording of the prophecy), and she woke stone dragons (the ages had turned the dragon eggs in to stone as Illyrio mopatis tells her). Can anybody fit Jon or Tyrion in to the prophecy in any way?

The Targaryans had a history of having multiple wives; Argon Targaryan was married to both of his sisters when he came to Westeros, Thus, it is plausible that while Rhaegar was indeed married to Elia Martell, he could have also married Lyanna Stark, and had that be deemed acceptable in the eyes of his family. It's plausible, but not tremendously likely. But then, that's theory, isnt it?

I think the dreams Tyrion had were a way of producing the link between himself and Dany/ the targaryans, just as all the hints about Jon being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna were place in order to do the same.

As to the PtwP being born of A&R's line - that could apply solely to Dany, right? Like, Azor Ahai is actually three people, and only one of them (or maybe two, depending if you count Jon) is actually of that line, but that you still need that line to produce one of them?

I think there is also a 0% chance that J=anything other than R+L, though.

See, I think Azor Ahai is a single entity, not multiple people. Only one person will be the man, but he will need friends, family, support. I personally think Dany is Azor Ahai.

The reason I believe that all three heads of "the Dragon" must have the same father is because of Aegon Targaryan. GRRM has an interesting way of showing Cyclical time; everything seems to happen again. Winter is coming, rebirth, etc. Dany is a very clear parallel to the original Argon Targaryan who first united Westeros. He rode to Westeros on three dragons,; he rode the Largest, Balerion the Black. The other two were ridden by his sisters. Now, Dany is a woman, so it fits that instead of riding with her sisters she will return with her two brothers alongside her, and will attempt to unite Westeros with them.

Dany already rides Drogon, the largest of her three dragons, and Drogon is black. Two remain, for her two brothers. I personally think that Tyrion is one (it would be oh-so-great if he and Jaime killed each other's fathers) and if Jon is one then he needs to be the son of Aerys.

[Janicia]

I think it takes a special kind of crazy (by which I mean recklessness and inflated ego) to attempt to ride a dragon, and I don't think Jon or Tyrion have it.

Even Dany can't get Drogon to lift a wing to keep her from dying, let alone let her steer. Even if the other two dragons felt a connection to somebody, I doubt that it would develop into a militarily useful connection quick enough to be useful in this story.

Sure it would be cool for Tyrion to get to feel the power of being a dragonrider after a lifetime of feeling weak. But unless he's able to steer, Tyrion + dragon = dragon... Tyrion would be more useful on the ground putting his mind to work while the dragon flies around murdering things.

Bran, however, seems likely to forge a militarily useful connection with a dragon.

[Pikachu101]

If Bran isn't one of the three heads I'll be very disappointed <_<

It will be even worse if any of Joana's kids aren't Tywin's