418 replies to this topic

[Angalin]

Last few posts of the previous thread:

Fragile Bird, on 15 February 2012 - 11:43 PM, said:

I think GRRM was pretty specific about Dany being born 9 months after the sack of KL and Jon being born 9 months before her.

I think Cat's thoughts about Ned show how paranoid she was - Ned would have had to slept with someone just before their wedding night or within a few weeks of it.  She thinks it's Ashara Dayne, and she was nowhere near Ned during that time.  Starfall is a long way from Riverrun and Dayne wasn't at the wedding.

Dragonfish, on 16 February 2012 - 12:04 AM, said:

George has said that Jon was born 8 to 9 months or thereabouts before Daenerys. Combine this with other clues in the books, and we may infer that Jon was born around the Sack or up to a month after it.

Regarding when Ned returned to Winterfell, I recall that in one of Catelyn's chapters she states that she and Ned were only apart for a year. Assuming that she may be rounding up or down, I'd say Ned probably returned to Winterfell between three to six months after the Sack. I believe Jon arrived in Winterfell before Ned did, so I imagine that Ned sent him along to Winterfell while he made a pit stop in King's Landing to reconcile with Robert.

Ygrain, on 16 February 2012 - 12:41 AM, said:

Which might be yet another subtle hint - why split company and send the child to Winterfell, when he comfortably could have taken him to KL?

Edited by Angalin, 16 February 2012 - 01:10 AM.

[Lady Octarina]

Ok, we were discussing when Jon was born, the possibility that it happened three months before Ned got to him, right?
atpthornton said something to the effect that we could be mistaken and Lyanna could have died from an infection after giving birth - but would it have lasted a month? If Ned's dreams are to be taken as a clue to what happened to Lyanna, I ask anyone that might have better knowledge of diseases, the human body and things like that: if it wasn't from giving birth, how did the woman die?

Also, do we know why Catelyn thinks Ashara was Jon's mother? Barristan's chapter suggests something happened in Harrenhall to make people believe in that hypothesis, but where was Ashara during the war, where could she have met Ned and got pregnant? Is it possible that, at least for a few weeks, she traveled with his host?

Quote

Which might be yet another subtle hint - why split company and send the child to Winterfell, when he comfortably could have taken him to KL?

Good point, Ygrain

Edited by Lady Octarina, 16 February 2012 - 11:43 AM.

[kissdbyfire]

I believe Catelyn thinks Ashara is Jon's mother because of gossip she's heard at Winterfell. She asks Ned about it, and he tells her to never ask about that again. After that, she never hears rumours those again.

[Harimad]

Okay I don't have my books in the same city as me currently and I'm really wanting to go back and re-read all the L+R=J stuff but i blew through three of the books in about two weeks so they've all kind of blended together, Ned's dream sequence about Lyanna in the bed of blood is in GoT right? after Jaime stabs him?

I read the first book and immediately assumed R+L=J but now i'm trying to remember why I thought that!

Thanks!

[Ygrain]

As was referenced in another thread, here http://towerofthehan...ws_parents.html is a pretty good reasoning for R+L

[Ashkan Stark]

I read the article about Jon's parents in towerofthehand.com. It is very convincing, any one with some kind of logic can accept that. I was against this theory but after reading that I was convinced. But something is bothering me. the amount of evidence is very very high and the first book of the serie is full of evidence. They are overwhelming the book. Why would a great writer like GRRM hints the biggest secret of his book like this? It is not acceptable for me and I really like R+L=J to be wrong but the evidence are very strong!!

P.S: one of the things that I have seen is that Ned never calls Jon his son. It is not true and my proof is AGoT book chapter two:
Jory rode up beside them. ―Trouble, my lord?‖
―Beyond a doubt,‖ his lord father said. ―Come, let us see what mischief my sons have rooted out now.‖

[FanTasy]

Harimad, on 16 February 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

Okay I don't have my books in the same city as me currently and I'm really wanting to go back and re-read all the L+R=J stuff but i blew through three of the books in about two weeks so they've all kind of blended together, Ned's dream sequence about Lyanna in the bed of blood is in GoT right? after Jaime stabs him?

I read the first book and immediately assumed R+L=J but now i'm trying to remember why I thought that!

Thanks!

Ned has a feverish dream in AGOT after he fell from his horse, breaking his leg, after Jaime ordered Ned's men killed as a message.

Edited by FanTasy, 16 February 2012 - 01:38 PM.

[Harimad]

FanTasy, on 16 February 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

Ned has a feverish dream in AGOT after he fell from his horse, breaking his leg, after Jaime ordered Ned's men killed as a message.

that's what i meant!

Thanks!

[Thoheeks Bili]

Ygrain, on 16 February 2012 - 12:59 PM, said:

As was referenced in another thread, here http://towerofthehan...ws_parents.html is a pretty good reasoning for R+L

THAT, kind sir, is THE best write up/synopsis about Jon that i have read.
Thanks for the link.

[Ygrain]

Ashkan Stark, on 16 February 2012 - 01:35 PM, said:

I read the article about Jon's parents in towerofthehand.com. It is very convincing, any one with some kind of logic can accept that. I was against this theory but after reading that I was convinced. But something is bothering me. the amount of evidence is very very high and the first book of the serie is full of evidence. They are overwhelming the book. Why would a great writer like GRRM hints the biggest secret of his book like this? It is not acceptable for me and I really like R+L=J to be wrong but the evidence are very strong!!

Er, I believe the evidence seems overwhelming now because it's concentrated within a single article, in the book, it's actually rather scattered. Also, except for Dany's visions so far, our sole source of info didn't make it past AGOT (oh, Ned...) , so GRRM had to make best use of him.

Ashkan Stark, on 16 February 2012 - 01:35 PM, said:

P.S: one of the things that I have seen is that Ned never calls Jon his son. It is not true and my proof is AGoT book chapter two:
Jory rode up beside them. ―Trouble, my lord?‖
―Beyond a doubt,‖ his lord father said. ―Come, let us see what mischief my sons have rooted out now.‖

I have little doubt he calls Jon his son - before other people. He does not reference him as such in his thoughts, though, nor he ever addresses Jon as such directly.

Thoheeks Bili, on 16 February 2012 - 01:55 PM, said:

THAT, kind sir, is THE best write up/synopsis about Jon that i have read.
Thanks for the link.

Er, as soon as I remember where I picked it up, I'll pass on your thanks in my best ladylike manner :-)

[Sasha Steelsong]

Lady Octarina, on 16 February 2012 - 11:42 AM, said:

Ok, we were discussing when Jon was born, the possibility that it happened three months before Ned got to him, right?
atpthornton said something to the effect that we could be mistaken and Lyanna could have died from an infection after giving birth - but would it have lasted a month? If Ned's dreams are to be taken as a clue to what happened to Lyanna, I ask anyone that might have better knowledge of diseases, the human body and things like that: if it wasn't from giving birth, how did the woman die?

Don't have extensive medical knowledge but generally if it was a hard birth, there could have been bleeding (short of a hemorage that would have killed her instantly) that then got infected and it just took a while for the infection to be fatal (general lack of antibiotics, obgyn treatments and procedures that would normally happen after a birth these days, etc).  Not sure if it could have lingered for a month but it could definitely have lingered for a week or two.  As to what else might have killed her if not something related to the birth, no idea though we do know she was feavered at the end.  I'm sure there are a bunch of possible causes but not sure that Ned would associate bed of blood with her death if that was the case.  That said I think Ned's dream(s) are a good outline for whatever happend to Lyanna, that she died at the TOJ and that her death was a direct result of her bed of blood (i.e. her birth of Jon) as opposed to her taking her own life or falling down the stairs or something else.

[Prince of the North]

atpthornton, on 16 February 2012 - 04:55 PM, said:

Don't have extensive medical knowledge but generally if it was a hard birth, there could have been bleeding (short of a hemorage that would have killed her instantly) that then got infected and it just took a while for the infection to be fatal (general lack of antibiotics, obgyn treatments and procedures that would normally happen after a birth these days, etc).  Not sure if it could have lingered for a month but it could definitely have lingered for a week or two.  As to what else might have killed her if not something related to the birth, no idea though we do know she was feavered at the end.  I'm sure there are a bunch of possible causes but not sure that Ned would associate bed of blood with her death if that was the case.  That said I think Ned's dream(s) are a good outline for whatever happend to Lyanna, that she died at the TOJ and that her death was a direct result of her bed of blood (i.e. her birth of Jon) as opposed to her taking her own life or falling down the stairs or something else.

  Here's a possibility.

[Lady Octarina]

Kissdbyfire, on 16 February 2012 - 11:52 AM, said:

I believe Catelyn thinks Ashara is Jon's mother because of gossip she's heard at Winterfell. She asks Ned about it, and he tells her to never ask about that again. After that, she never hears rumours those again.

But that's what I mean, where did the rumors come from? Not something as distant as Harrenhall, certainly. I believe it could be from the men who went South with Ned during the war, and that's why I wonder if Ashara may have stopped by their camp for a while. I mean, we all suppose she was actually involved with Brandon and that he was her child's father, but what if there really was something between her and Ned?

Of course, this doesn't affect R+L=J, but no other topic seemed as appropriate for this discussion at this point.

[Ursa]

Lady Octarina, on 16 February 2012 - 11:42 AM, said:

Ok, we were discussing when Jon was born, the possibility that it happened three months before Ned got to him, right?
atpthornton said something to the effect that we could be mistaken and Lyanna could have died from an infection after giving birth - but would it have lasted a month? If Ned's dreams are to be taken as a clue to what happened to Lyanna, I ask anyone that might have better knowledge of diseases, the human body and things like that: if it wasn't from giving birth, how did the woman die?

Well, I found this:
puerperal fever, also called childbed fever,  infection of some part of the female reproductive organs following childbirth or abortion. Cases of fever of 100.4 °F (38 °C) and higher during the first 10 days following delivery or miscarriage are notifiable to the civil authority in most developed countries, and the notifying physician clarifies the diagnosis later, if possible.

So, if I'm understanding this correctly, you can get puerperal fever up to 10 days after giving birth.  Then it's going to take you a little while to die from it (Mary Shelley's mom took a week to die) so adding it all up - maybe about 2 weeks at tops?

Do we know - with absolute certainty - that the ToJ had no contact with the outside world at all?
The reason I ask, is that looking at the timeline of Lyanna giving birth and dying and Ned being there for it, I wonder if somehow a message got out when they (Wylla?) realized the birth wasn't going well. The message could have been passed on to Ned, and then he would have had roughly 10-14 days (at most) to ride like a madman to get to her.

[Screaming Knight]

I'm under the assumption that Jon(if it really was Jon) was essentially a newborn babe at the time Ned found her. Theres no definitive evidence to how old Jon(assuming it was Jon) was when Ned was at the tower of joy because it's never outright said in the books. This is just an educated guess on my part. What I've always been a little confused about is why no one else in westeros has any questions or suspicions about jon's parents or the matter in which lyanna died. I guess everyone thinks she was murdered. I would think people knowing Ned and how over the top honorable he is would be a little intrigued about his bastard son and maybe want to know about his mother. I'm talking more about robert and the lannister's and those in higher or just as high ranks as Ned. We know he's able to shut the people of winterfell
up by intimidation but I've always wondered why others don't want some serious answers about his birth. Especially if anyone was ambiguous about lyanna and rhaegars relationship.

[Buried Treasure]

Lady Octarina, on 16 February 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

But that's what I mean, where did the rumors come from? Not something as distant as Harrenhall, certainly. I believe it could be from the men who went South with Ned during the war, and that's why I wonder if Ashara may have stopped by their camp for a while. I mean, we all suppose she was actually involved with Brandon and that he was her child's father, but what if there really was something between her and Ned?

Of course, this doesn't affect R+L=J, but no other topic seemed as appropriate for this discussion at this point.

It's known that Ned took the Greatsword Dawn back to Starfell so that provides a link to Ashara at around the time of the end of the war and Jon suddenly appearing.

[Lady Octarina]

Ursa, on 16 February 2012 - 09:17 PM, said:

Do we know - with absolute certainty - that the ToJ had no contact with the outside world at all?
The reason I ask, is that looking at the timeline of Lyanna giving birth and dying and Ned being there for it, I wonder if somehow a message got out when they (Wylla?) realized the birth wasn't going well. The message could have been passed on to Ned, and then he would have had roughly 10-14 days (at most) to ride like a madman to get to her.

Nothing is certain about the ToJ, but we assume it had no contact with the outside world because it was supposed to be a secret hiding place. I mean, the Martells are liberal and all, but I wonder how they would react to the news Rhaegar's lover and living humiliation to their House since Harrenhall was in Dorne.

But even if they had ravens there or something else, Ned would need to be at least in the Reach to get there on time. Or could it have reached him when he was in Storm's End, right after lifting the siege?

Anyway, I still think he was simply lucky to get there moments before Lyanna died, but the mystery remains: how did he hear about the ToJ? Who told him, who else knows?

Buried Treasure, on 16 February 2012 - 09:45 PM, said:

It's known that Ned took the Greatsword Dawn back to Starfell so that provides a link to Ashara at around the time of the end of the war and Jon suddenly appearing.

But not his conception.

Edit:

Screaming Knight, on 16 February 2012 - 09:45 PM, said:

I'm under the assumption that Jon(if it really was Jon) was essentially a newborn babe at the time Ned found her. Theres no definitive evidence to how old Jon(assuming it was Jon) was when Ned was at the tower of joy because it's never outright said in the books. This is just an educated guess on my part. What I've always been a little confused about is why no one else in westeros has any questions or suspicions about jon's parents or the matter in which lyanna died. I guess everyone thinks she was murdered. I would think people knowing Ned and how over the top honorable he is would be a little intrigued about his bastard son and maybe want to know about his mother. I'm talking more about robert and the lannister's and those in higher or just as high ranks as Ned. We know he's able to shut the people of winterfell
up by intimidation but I've always wondered why others don't want some serious answers about his birth. Especially if anyone was ambiguous about lyanna and rhaegars relationship.

I think no one is intrigued by it because they all assume even the one who poses as honorable has sexual needs and will follow their desire eventually. So they wouldn't be that surprised that Ned's honor code wasn't as strictly enforced as he would make others believe. But I agree nothing explains why they never wonder about Lyanna's death.

Edited by Lady Octarina, 16 February 2012 - 09:50 PM.

[gillybarathestark]

Screaming Knight, on 16 February 2012 - 09:45 PM, said:

I'm under the assumption that Jon(if it really was Jon) was essentially a newborn babe at the time Ned found her. Theres no definitive evidence to how old Jon(assuming it was Jon) was when Ned was at the tower of joy because it's never outright said in the books. This is just an educated guess on my part. What I've always been a little confused about is why no one else in westeros has any questions or suspicions about jon's parents or the matter in which lyanna died. I guess everyone thinks she was murdered. I would think people knowing Ned and how over the top honorable he is would be a little intrigued about his bastard son and maybe want to know about his mother. I'm talking more about robert and the lannister's and those in higher or just as high ranks as Ned. We know he's able to shut the people of winterfell
up by intimidation but I've always wondered why others don't want some serious answers about his birth. Especially if anyone was ambiguous about lyanna and rhaegars relationship.

That was one of the most intelligent posts i have ever read.  Well put Screaming Knight, do you have any other enlightening theories?  

I have heard rumblings about Rhaegar possibly forging a maester's chain, any thoughts on that?

[Screaming Knight]

gillybarathestark, on 16 February 2012 - 09:50 PM, said:

That was one of the most intelligent posts i have ever read.  Well put Screaming Knight, do you have any other enlightening theories?  

I have heard rumblings about Rhaegar possibly forging a maester's chain, any thoughts on that?

[Screaming Knight]

Thank you for the compliments. As to Rhaegar being a maester, I'm not sure where you got this information or what book whoever said this was reading but maesters are an order who take vows of chastity and I don't think this vow would even be lifted for the crown prince and beig that he was married and all...but I do believe that if Rhaegar wanted to form a maesters chain he would've done so at the highest level.