159 replies to this topic

[nothatso]

Fire Eater, on 31 March 2012 - 09:38 PM, said:

I don't know, the Velaryons don't have a record of wedding brother to sister, yet they have no trouble retaining their Valyrian traits throughout the generations, Monford Velaryon is fair-haired and Aurane Waters has silver-gold hair. Rhaenyra Targaryen had an Arryn mother yet still had the silver-gold hair of her father. The Targs have married brother to sister only a few times yet all the Targaryen kings retained the Targaryen look.

Well certainly there were a lot more Valyrians than there were Targaryens.

We also know that Rhaegar's own daughter was born with the Dornish looks of her mother. Still, I'd agree that Targ traits aren't completely recesive.

Genetics is much more complicated than this though, I always try to caution people against getting too in-depth with it in a fantasy setting. GRRM is not a geneticist, and the genetic rules he's established seem somewhat inconsistent. (e.g. ALL Baratheons having similar traits for generations no matter who their non-Baratheon parent is, is practically impossible in the real world)

Edited by nothatso, 01 April 2012 - 01:10 AM.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Fire Eater, on 31 March 2012 - 09:38 PM, said:

Like you said, If he were to kill Roose, he would kill off Fat Walda too since she is carrying another Bolton, and her Frey relatives aren't there to aid her if Ramsay tries to kill her. He would kill them by poisoning their drinks like he did with Domeric.

Flaying his face for a mask would be some real poetic justice.



I don't know, the Velaryons don't have a record of wedding brother to sister, yet they have no trouble retaining their Valyrian traits throughout the generations, Monford Velaryon is fair-haired and Aurane Waters has silver-gold hair. Rhaenyra Targaryen had an Arryn mother yet still had the silver-gold hair of her father. The Targs have married brother to sister only a few times yet all the Targaryen kings retained the Targaryen look.

Well, all of the Targaryen kings have looked completely Targaryen only by chance:

1. Baelor Breakspear (brown hair) never reigned only b/c of the events of the hedgenight.
2. Baelor's son Vaylar never reigned b/c of the great spring sickness.  He had brown hair with a silver gold strip.
3.  King Maekar's first born son Daeron (common brown hair) never reigned b/c he died of an STD.

I'm sure there are others who may not have looked completely Targaryen.  Other than Daeron "The Good," I can't remember any other Targ King who did not wed a sibling (other than Rhaegar, though he never reigned).

[DornishKnight]

Faint, on 08 March 2012 - 01:33 PM, said:

There is some evidence that Tyrion actually fooled 'Aegon Targaryen' into invading Westeros without Daenerys; note the game of cyvasse they had with one another. I'm not here suggesting he is actually opposed to Aegon altogether but his thoughts in Tyrion VII (i.e., Chapter 27) do not make him appear as well intentioned as some would have it.

Also, it must be said, it might be possible for Tyrion to figure out that Aegon is a fake, if he hasn't already. He's been privy to a whole lot of evidence (i.e., the clothes he was given by Illyrio, the statue of the youth in the gardens, Serra's appearance, the age discrepancy, Illyrio's missing motivation, Varys' curiously shaved head, etc.).

While we are on the subject, could it be possible that Varys is a descendant of Daella, Rhae (Aegon V sisters), or some other Targaryen?  I know this is an old theory, but are there any indications in the text besides his shaved head?

[GrandPoobah]

Manus_Dei, on 23 February 2012 - 02:06 PM, said:

Why do the Faceless men have to declare for anyone? They haven't seemed the type to care about politics. Unless a more direct and influential connection with the Iron Bank is established, i see them as nothing more than uninterested observers of politics in general.

The Faceless Men don't seem to take a "side" in Westerosi affairs. They will, of course "give the gift" to almost anyone they've been paid to give it to.

Edited by GrandPoobah, 04 April 2012 - 02:10 PM.

[Bastard of the White Knife]

DornishKnight, on 01 April 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

While we are on the subject, could it be possible that Varys is a descendant of Daella, Rhae (Aegon V sisters), or some other Targaryen?  I know this is an old theory, but are there any indications in the text besides his shaved head?

The Kindly Man shared the founding of the FM with Arya.  They descend from slaves in Valaria who were kept in line dragons.  I don't think it's unfounded to say that the FM dislike the idea of slavery or one person (or goup of people) having that much power.

[Lan the Clever]

Slavers Bay is too far. Massey would need the whole TWoW to get there. I think he'll either run into Davos in Skagos or Arya in Bravos. And maybe end up in Hardhome. But he'll need a POV character if he's to have exposition.

[John W]

Nothing matters because Westeros is doomed to the same fate as Valyria.

[Lan the Clever]

John W, on 04 April 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

Nothing matters because Westeros is doomed to the same fate as Valyria.

Now that would be interesting.

[TheeMikeHoncho]

I like the idea of Arya traveling north with Justin Massey. It falls in line with my theory of who Arya's trainer is: Patchface. Didnt Mel see Patchface in her fires and only see death and skulls?  After reading some previous posts i find it hard to believe that some circumstance (ie meeting Jeyne Poole) will make her blow her cover as a FM. I think that only one being will convince Arya to leave the FM: Nymeria. I think that when she travels north she will understand what she is (a warg) and that will convince her that she is not no one, she is Arya Stark- the Night Wolf. There, with wildling help, she will be able to learn how to control the "dreams" and might even figure out how to locate her wolf.

[My_Arya_Spirit]

I suggest that Littlefinger should be strongly considered in every plot twist, particularly when it comes to money, including the purchase of sellswords and the repayment of debts.

As the end nears, should he step forward and have the ability to offer resources to the new Iron Throne occupant to help settle the debt to the Iron Bank, his position is assured in any future dynasty. There several references to financial abilities, and his brothels must certainly be making money and rewarding him with knowledge of secrets and other perversions.

Often, I have been surprised by his role in clever manipulations: Jon Arryn's death, Sansa's escape (particularly the hairnet and the connection with the Tyrell's), the Vale's succession, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if he weren't funding a sellsword company in the Free Cities.

(I am convinced that he knew of Brandon's infidelity, possibly with Ashara, and that is what he wrote to Cat in the letter she never opened. His intent was to convince her to reconsider marrying him, as he had some knowledge that would give him the ability to rise to a higher station. His embarrassment, rejection and Tully love have fueled his ambitions.)

The GOT series has revealed his role in a few places that were not revealed/didn't occur in the book. D&D have knowledge of the ending, perhaps they are setting the stage for Littlefinger's  "great reveal."

[Visual909]

Honestly as far as the hiring of sell swords it's not that big of a deal. Stannis wants 20,000 but he only really needs a fraction of that. If he can successfully bloody his enemy in the field i.e. the boltons more people will join his cause. If he gets say 5,000 sell swords/archers this is more plausible and can have a considerable impact on the battlefield. And yes while the Tyrells, Dorne, and the Lannisters might have about 50,000 swords a piece that doesn't mean he'll fight them all at once in the field. They still have to be used to protect forts and face other opponents in different places. it's more likely he would only fight 5-10 thousands at any given time. That while difficult with his current numbers isn't impossible especially if more people flock to him as he wins. So his fate really depends on his next battle whether he succeeds in his claim for the throne or not.

And as for Aria i think the news of Jon's "death" might be the tipping point for her. She says she's no one but that connection she has to him through needle is important and the only thing maintaining the remnants of her identity. So with news like that she may tip either way with it, but I think his fate will be the key for her.

And for the Iron Bank while it might seem like a poor decision on their part it's not like they have actually given him money. Massey in en-route and when he gets Braavos he will likely only get whats needed at any given time. If the sell swords die they don't have to pay if they succeed the loot pays a considerable part of the expenses.

Also you I have faith in the extreme incompetence of Cersei and the Tyells given their less than wonderful performance throughout the war. And Aegon while will make gains I think he's a fake and will die in a battle or from some other unforeseen thing. As for Dany while she might hate the usurpers usually thinks of her people first and paying off the debt of the crown to them while not as high a priority would eventually pay it back off screen after the books ended.

[dragonfire613]

MSUMC25, on 17 February 2012 - 03:03 PM, said:

My thoughts are it will go well. I mean there are only two books left.  It's about time Martin starts wrapping up the loose plots.

Everybody is hung up on this, because Martin said 2 more books.  Seriously, when he was writing Game of Thrones, he was saying EXACTLY the same thing (2 more books)... there is no way possible he can wrap the series up in any satisfactory way in only 2 more books.  3 or 4 at minimum is my guess.  GRRM is notoriously bad at estimating these things, to his own admission.  I'll eat my hat if he does it in two books.  He will not modify the story in any way, shape, or form due to the constraints of "well, I shouldn't start this sub-plot, because I can't put it in the remaining two books".  He just doesn't work that way folks, and basing any assumption on the "fact" that there are only 2 books left in the series, well, is just not a good assumption at all.

[Visual909]

True but this is just how it could work out.

[ThePrinceOfSunspear]

dragonfire613, on 01 May 2012 - 10:32 AM, said:

Everybody is hung up on this, because Martin said 2 more books.  Seriously, when he was writing Game of Thrones, he was saying EXACTLY the same thing (2 more books)... there is no way possible he can wrap the series up in any satisfactory way in only 2 more books.  3 or 4 at minimum is my guess.  GRRM is notoriously bad at estimating these things, to his own admission.  I'll eat my hat if he does it in two books.  He will not modify the story in any way, shape, or form due to the constraints of "well, I shouldn't start this sub-plot, because I can't put it in the remaining two books".  He just doesn't work that way folks, and basing any assumption on the "fact" that there are only 2 books left in the series, well, is just not a good assumption at all.

THIS.....to me its almost a given that he will end up writing 1 or 2 more books in this saga. Its just too epic of a tale to be wrapped up neatly in 2 books only.

Anyways thats my hope.

[jlk7e]

Stallion That Mounts Texas, on 01 April 2012 - 08:48 AM, said:

Other than Daeron "The Good," I can't remember any other Targ King who did not wed a sibling (other than Rhaegar, though he never reigned).

A Jeyne Westerling was one of Maegor I's wives.  Viserys I married first an Arryn, and then a Hightower.  Aegon III married first a Velaryon, and then a Targaryen first cousin.  And we know nothing about the wives of Aegon II, Viserys II, Maekar I, Aegon V, and Jaehaerys II.

[Visual909]

Ya they say that when there aren't any Targ siblings that can be married they reach to the other houses but they do so as a last resort.

[CrypticWeirwood]

Visual909, on 04 May 2012 - 11:07 PM, said:

Ya they say that when there aren't any Targ siblings that can be married they reach to the other houses but they do so as a last resort.

Only half as interbred as full-sibling marriage, and still twice as much so as with first-cousin marriage, would be the issue from a  girl who married any of her:

• half-brother
  
• double first cousin
  
• uncle or nephew
  
• grandfather or grandson

Although the last is unlikely for age reasons, I’m surprised there aren’t many instances of the others in the Targaryen line, since any of them would keep it all “in the family” much better than would out-marriages.

[History of Westeros]

Brucolac, on 05 March 2012 - 07:11 PM, said:

At the same time, GGRM has never really dwelled on the economy of his world, so it is hard to say what a dragon buys.   The best example might be in D&E over hundred years ago where he sells a decent horse for 4 dragons and spends 80% of that on a suit of armor if I remember correctly.   The Hound and the archer that won the tourney, were able to go through 40,000 and 10,000 dragons respectively in a year.  Arya has a scene were she sells Bolton's horses and gets robbed, but I forget what she was asking and what she got.  It is all pretty vague, and now we have this premise where economics is going to make someone a contender for the throne again.  It is kind of like turning an extra into a lead actor at the last minute.

The Hound and Anguy are not great examples, though I do largely agree that the value of money in Westeros is hard to pinpoint and possibly inconsistent.

The problem is that people who come into a lot of money often blow it.  In fact, we know Anguy did exactly this.  He talks about going to Chataya's and drinking the finest wines, etc.

With the Hound there is also the problem you alluded to.. he did have some of that money left but it was stolen from him and we don't know how much.

On top of all of that, there is the biggest enemy of people who are bad with money and/or bad at math: gambling.  (I actually gamble for a living so I have quite a bit of experience in this area).

Gambling is extremely common and we already know the Hound partakes.  Assuming that Anguy does is no stretch at all.  Any huge sum that goes missing quickly likely has the stench of gambling all over it.

[Babeldygob]

I think Justin Massey is going to betray Stannis. But not just go over to the other side. He will acquire lots of gold from the Iron bank, then betray Stannis. In what way I cannot say. This will do two things:

Stannis has just lost all the gold he was going to have and he has lost prospects of sellswords despite promising Massey he would get Asha. This will make him trust nobody anymore, except for maybe Davos. He will go more and more down the path to the Night's King.

Edited by Babeldygob, 10 May 2012 - 06:45 PM.

[Artemis]

Michael Jon Snow, on 17 February 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

In Arya's storyline she has hidden Needle and ever since I have wondered what will happen to make her take up her Needle and return to Westeros. My guess would be that Massey and "Arya" arriving in Braavos will bring about her reclaiming her Stark identity.

OR she runs into Harys Swyft who at the end of ADwD is told to go talk to the Iron Bank to see if the Iron Throne can negotiate an agreement about the debt to be repaid. Kevan Lannister suggests to him: '“Hire the Mountain’s men”' Out of Gregor Clegane's men, Raff the Sweetling and Dunsen still remain. And curiously, those two names appear to be in the nightly prayers of someone we know...

Edited by Artemis, 25 May 2012 - 06:20 PM.