justification for the murder of Shae and Tywin

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

They had it coming, right? I mean Tyrion was in a state of insanity and they both said the worst thing they could have. Tywin still called her a whore, like 5 times! and Shae said my giant of a... Lannister :bawl: .

I happen to agree that they both had it coming. A person can only be pushed so far until they snap.

[Jadiecat]

I love you for asking this question, even if it was just to mess with people, because it gives me a chance to spout cherished crackpot theories...

I think Tywin/Jaime/Tyrion have a little backwards/twisted Oedipus thing going on.

Theory: Tywin was not Tyrion's biological father, and Tywin killed Joanna after Tyrion was born.

So in murdering Tywin, Tyrion unknowingly revenged his mother's death. And he's not a kinslayer, though he is a murderer...

Except, I think, along with others, that Tywin was already dying. I think he'd been poisoned, in a foully gastrointestinal way, which may be why he was so glued to the privy, and might explain the stench that clung to him after death, despite the usual methods of managing such.

But Tyrion still murdered him. Theoretically, I don't think vengeful murder is ethical, but I wasn't sorry to see Tywin go.

Shae most definitely was far too familiar with Varys, and with secret passages. Tyrion should pinned her down about these and other things, which he probably knew on some level.

Shae wasn't empathic at all toward poor Lollys, and she was very focused on being able to wear fancy things and be a part of grand affairs. She could be warm and fun and witty. But she was a bit shallow, and a bit of a jerk.

However, I'm not entirely sure her betrayal of Tyrion in court was what it seemed. He knows what his enemies are capable of...threats, torture. She may have even been trying to save him. Maybe she was the one who slipped the poison to Tywin. Possibly on Varys' behalf. Just as with Tysha, he didn't look deeper. He choked Shae before he could find out what she had to say.

And he had seemed to love her. I wish that had stayed his hand a little.

[Serie]

actually since Shae was a *camp follower* didn't need an excuse to jump into Tywin's bed, did she? plus we talk about Tywin here! who knows whether and how he threatened her....

but Dorne spy? how come? due to her looks?

[Spearwife of the Wild]

Well it seems a little weird to me, seeing as how much trouble it cost her to bed the Hand in the first place. There are plenty of rich men who could have taken her in, I'm sure. Shae was pretty and knew how to be charming, she would have had no trouble finding someone else.

Because of her looks, yes. She also insisted to be brought to King's Landing, and as someone mentionned before, she had an uncanny knowledge of secret passages and talked with Varys. She might not be from Dorne, but simply one of Varys' little birds.

Carckpot theory amongst others :P

[Serie]

Well it seems a little weird to me, seeing as how much trouble it cost her to bed the Hand in the first place. There are plenty of rich men who could have taken her in, I'm sure. Shae was pretty and knew how to be charming, she would have had no trouble finding someone else.

Because of her looks, yes. She also insisted to be brought to King's Landing, and as someone mentionned before, she had an uncanny knowledge of secret passages and talked with Varys. She might not be from Dorne, but simply one of Varys' little birds.

Carckpot theory amongst others :P

fair enough. I always blamed everything on Shae's love for luxury... but I'm so naive when it comes to westerosi plotting :dunno: I think she's too old for being a Vary's little bird though...

[Spearwife of the Wild]

We know that Varys took infos from Ser Jorah Mormont, so while most of his little birds are children, not all of them are! :)

Also I didn't see it either before I came to these boards!

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

They had it coming, right? I mean Tyrion was in a state of insanity and they both said the worst thing they could have. Tywin still called her a whore, like 5 times! and Shae said my giant of a... Lannister :bawl: .

Yup.

[Peach Fuzz]

'ere 'ere im with you all the way...after the shit tyrion got for banging whores then finding out he does the same thing and with his own wench!!!! fair play to tyrion!!!! but then again he went there without noing any of what i just said but still fuck tywin go tyrion!!!

[David C. Hunter]

Yup.

Double yup

[Peach Fuzz]

'ere 'ere im with you all the way...after the shit tyrion got for banging whores then finding out he does the same thing and with his own wench!!!! fair play to tyrion!!!! but then again he went there without noing any of what i just said but still fuck tywin go tyrion!!!

[Peach Fuzz]

'ere 'ere im with you all the way...after the shit tyrion got for banging whores then finding out he does the same thing and with his own wench!!!! fair play to tyrion!!!! but then again he went there without noing any of what i just said but still fuck tywin go tyrion!!!

[JKeats]

Okay hang on a moment. It seems highly unlikely that Cersei gave Shae much of a choice in testifying. "Say this. If you do, I will give you barrels of riches. If you don't, you die painfully." is probably how it went. The relevant passages from Tyrion's pov suggest Shae was pretty distraught.

"Shae looked half in terror as the gold cloaks formed up around her. Her eyes met Tyrion’s as they marched her from the wall. Was it shame he saw there, or fear?"

She said what she said to survive. Later, Tywin took her for himself. Somehow I doubt he gave her any more choice in the matter than Cersei did viz testifying. What was Shae supposed to do?

[littlespider]

Okay hang on a moment. It seems highly unlikely that Cersei gave Shae much of a choice in testifying. "Say this. If you do, I will give you barrels of riches. If you don't, you die painfully." is probably how it went. The relevant passages from Tyrion's pov suggest Shae was pretty distraught.

"Shae looked half in terror as the gold cloaks formed up around her. Her eyes met Tyrion’s as they marched her from the wall. Was it shame he saw there, or fear?"

She said what she said to survive. Later, Tywin took her for himself. Somehow I doubt he gave her any more choice in the matter than Cersei did viz testifying. What was Shae supposed to do?

Shae was, of course, supposed to say "Fuck you, Cersei!" then bitch-slap her, and either die a martyr (a redeemed whore, if you will) or escape and sneak off to Tyrion, help him escape, declare her undying love for him, and then they could go off to Essos and have babies. Or something.

j/k

You are right, of course. It's doubtful Shae had any choice in the matter. She was a total and complete innocent and didn't deserve to die.

[Ser Ilyn's Tongue]

The power of POVs is strong, but I agree that Tywin really did have it coming once Tyrion knew the truth. Repeatedly calling the wife that he ordered a troop of guards to rape a whore - not smart. Death on the toilet = fair enough.

But from what we know, there's no such evidence to suggest that Shae deserved what Tyrion did to her. She gave him exactly what he wanted so long as he provided for her, when he couldn't she moved on. It seems harsh but there's no evidence of spitefulness, its just what she had to do. She could possibly have always been an informer for Tywin and planning to betray him, but Tyrion couldn't know for sure. A hunch is really not enough to murder over.

This is why I feel the murder of Shae, rather than Tywin, shows us more about Tyrion's mindset at the time and is the greater influence in his later moral decline.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Okay hang on a moment. It seems highly unlikely that Cersei gave Shae much of a choice in testifying. "Say this. If you do, I will give you barrels of riches. If you don't, you die painfully." is probably how it went. The relevant passages from Tyrion's pov suggest Shae was pretty distraught.

"Shae looked half in terror as the gold cloaks formed up around her. Her eyes met Tyrion’s as they marched her from the wall. Was it shame he saw there, or fear?"

She said what she said to survive. Later, Tywin took her for himself. Somehow I doubt he gave her any more choice in the matter than Cersei did viz testifying. What was Shae supposed to do?

Lie. How the fuck did "my giant of lannister" come up in questioning about Joffrey being poisoned?

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

The power of POVs is strong, but I agree that Tywin really did have it coming once Tyrion knew the truth. Repeatedly calling the wife that he ordered a troop of guards to rape a whore - not smart. Death on the toilet = fair enough.

But from what we know Shae there's no such evidence to suggest that she deserved what Tyrion did to her. She gave him exactly what he wanted so long as he provided for her, when he couldn't she moved on. It seems harsh but there's no evidence of spitefulness, its just what she had to do. She could possibly have always been an informer for Tywin and planning to betray him but Tyrion couldn't know for sure. A hunch is really not enough to murder over.

This is why I feel the murder of Shae, rather than Tywin, shows us more about Tyrion's mindset at the time and is the greater influence in his later moral decline.

Yeah, she did give him exactly what he wanted. He wanted to believe she loved him. Then he found her in bed with his father...... Well you know, you're more likely to be killed by a person you're sleeping with than anyone else on the planet.

[David Selig]

If Shae had it coming, I hope Tyrion fanboys who say it agree that he has it coming too now and they should cheer up his death. After all he's committed quite a few more serious crimes than a perjury.

[littlespider]

Lie. How the fuck did "my giant of lannister" come up in questioning about Joffrey being poisoned?

Let's say that comment was designed entirely to insult and humiliate Tyrion. Why would she do it?

Oh, right, because Tyrion was a douche to her.

Regardless, that comment had zero to do with the outcome of his trial, and a lot to do with her murder.

[JKeats]

Lie. How the fuck did "my giant of lannister" come up in questioning about Joffrey being poisoned?

Easy. Cersei discovers that one of Sansa's maids, formerly of Lady Stokeworth's household, is in fact Tyrion's lover, brought to KL in secret and privy to Tyrion's private thoughts, words and actions. Of course she questioned her about more than just Joffrey's death. I imagine the "giant of Lannister" line came up at some point, and Cersei told her to mention it in her testimony. Given a choice between a painful death and whatever payment Cersei offered, Shae did the sensible thing and agreed to cooperate. How many of you would do differently if you were in her place?

-edit-

Let's say that comment was designed entirely to insult and humiliate Tyrion. Why would she do it?

Oh, right, because Tyrion was a douche to her.

Well, here I disagree. Tyrion treated her rather well imo. I am most emphatically NOT saying she should have been more grateful or anything like that. But I doubt Shae said what she said out of malice toward Tyrion.

[Ser Ilyn's Tongue]

Yeah, she did give him exactly what he wanted. He wanted to believe she loved him. Then he found her in bed with his father...... Well you know, you're more likely to be killed by a person you're sleeping with than anyone else on the planet.

Yeah maybe. Tyrion is smart enough to realise she never did, and probably never would, love him though. He's not stupid and he was paying her. Shae's betrayal is nothing compared to what Tywin did to his wife.