120 replies to this topic

[Ser Lepus]

Plem, on 18 March 2012 - 05:51 AM, said:

Honestly, I think she's past the point of being able to distinguish between right and wrong. In my opinion, the turning point was when she killed that Brother of the Night's Watch who was travelling with Sam. Justifying it by saying that he was a deserter and that he deserved to die to me suggests that she has lost her moral code.

I think the murder of the insurer was her real turning point; they made very clear to her that he wasn´t evil, that she had to kill him because those were her orders, period...and she still went with it, despite not feeling loyalty towards the Faceless Men, not having faith in the God Of Many Faces and not being afraid of punishment...she did it because it was convenient...

She thought she was doing something good when she killed Daeron; she comes from a place and time where life is really cheap, so killing the deserter wouldn´t look so harsh from her perspective as it does from ours...

[just an Other]

I'm not sure convenient is the right way to put it. She has made the decision to go all the way with the FM, in part because she feels she has no other options and because she really wants to let go of the Arya identity due to the danger and pain it involves. Still she tried to justify it (feebly) in her mind and went on with it whne the kindly old man pretty much told her that the guy in question had left a widow and her children starve.

I found it intersting though that in the chapter in question Martin refers to her by name only once, when she makes the decision to put on the face. On every other occasion she refers to her as "she" or the girl and the fact that her proclamation of being "no one" went unanswered actually gave me chills.

I guess we'll have to wait and see.

[jon's_mom]

Ser Lepus, on 18 March 2012 - 07:19 AM, said:

She thought she was doing something good when she killed Daeron; she comes from a place and time where life is really cheap, so killing the deserter wouldn´t look so harsh from her perspective as it does from ours...

wow.

remind me to never drink with you. You have special techniques... ok I don't. Just don't kill me.

[Ser Lepus]

jon, on 18 March 2012 - 07:50 AM, said:

wow.

remind me to never drink with you. You have special techniques... ok I don't. Just don't kill me.

Why? Are you a deserter? Are you?

[just an Other]

jon, on 18 March 2012 - 07:50 AM, said:

wow.

remind me to never drink with you. You have special techniques... ok I don't. Just don't kill me.

I live in a country where every able-bodied male is required to serve for a year in the army. A deserter in wartime is liable to summary execution, in theory at least. Please, notice the use of the word "summary". They actually had that posted on the wall in one of the places I served.

[Darth Pipes]

Daeron was a deserter so from Arya's POV she did what Lords would do to NW deserters, what her father would do.  Thing is, Ned believed in looking someone in the eye and speaking with them before they killed them.  Killing Daeron the way Arya did is not the Stark way.  Although as a 10, 11-year-old, Arya wasn't just going to be able to subdue Daeron like an adult might have.

Yes and I doubt they are going to like Dany when she is running around freeing slaves and in general causing economic chaos not to mention civil unrest. All that killing maiming and slaughtering is bad for banking and loans.

But the Braavosi are also ex-slaves who hate slavery.  So we will see what they hate most I guess.

[TomBombadil]

Arya is my favorite female character. She is a total badass now that shes learning to become an assassin. I think she will go on a murderous rampage after she leaves the faceless men. Maybe reunite with Jon to help save the world.

[mermer]

Plem, on 18 March 2012 - 05:51 AM, said:

Honestly, I think she's past the point of being able to distinguish between right and wrong. In my opinion, the turning point was when she killed that Brother of the Night's Watch who was travelling with Sam. Justifying it by saying that he was a deserter and that he deserved to die to me suggests that she has lost her moral code.

Sorry but I don´t get this. It´s exactly her moral code, a stark-ish moral code, the reason of the killing. I have to agree with you that she does things she sometimes doesn´t know if are right or wrong in order to keep her alive. But there are some hints here and there that she is still the same arya and killing dareon was one. Ned would have done that himself. And arya is his little girl so she did the best she could.

The murder of the insurer was her first cold-blooded murder. However she still justified it. She doesn´t want to be afraid anymore and she feels safe and powerfull with the FM. She hates being helpless and afraid as she was in riverrun. I prefer her dead instead of being turned into a coolbloded assasin. Vengeance is one thing and being a hitman another.

Edited with google translate

Edited by mermer, 28 March 2012 - 06:25 PM.

[Jack's Smirking Revenge]

jon, on 18 March 2012 - 05:39 AM, said:

I love the way GRRM puts a murdering psychopath into the POV and turns Arya into a kind of anti-hero.

Like... when you read Arya's POV she only "likes" people who are of benefit to her and let her act out her act out her idiosyncratic ways. She feels no empathy for anyone else and only regrets past interactions because it blows her cover as a murdering psychopath.

Great writing by GRRM. Not many authors could get into the head of an emerging pre-teen psychopathic murderer.

Except she does empathize with people.  She feels for the peasants stuck in the middle of the war. Arya is the way she is now because of the need for her to be that way.  She killed when she needed to and it's evolved into something more twisted.  I'm not sure how she will be by the end but most of her killings were arguably justifiable because of the situation she was in.

[Errant Bard]

Jack, on 28 March 2012 - 07:34 PM, said:

Except she does empathize with people.

She did. Not sure about now in Braavos: the extent of her empathy follows how useful the guys are to her; seems interesting that when she drops out of her Cat role, what she misses is the role, not people she doesn't see anymore. For that she doesn't care.

Any kill is justifiale when you see it in the murderer's eyes. When it's not in cold blood, they get a pass (but she was scared and it was in the heat of the moment), and when it's in cold blood it's ok too (but her upbringing is what makes her kill Dareon), meanwhile, when it's Joffrey the exact same action (you know, killing a traitor/deserter) is viewed as the worst thing ever.

[Xayoz]

It would be pretty awesome in my mind if she became a truly twisted character, kinda like Ramsay.
At one point, I thought it might go that way.

Currently tho, I just cant see Martin doing that with her. She's just way too popular and I fear she might actually be set up as some tragic heroine.

[Tharg]

Ser Lepus, on 18 March 2012 - 07:19 AM, said:

I think the murder of the insurer was her real turning point; ...

She thought she was doing something good when she killed Daeron; ...

Yesish. The point about Daeron is that in Arya's mind she was doing the right thing. She is the last true born Stark alive, and she has been brought up to believe its the families job to defend the North and executing deserters is part of that. Remember the first Chapter, her father teaching his children that its something they have to do for themselves. Also of course she thinks she is doing John a favour.

Killing the insurer and feeling OK about it truly pulls her into the assassin's world. It was immediately followed by a promotion so I suspect the FM agree.

Lady Blackfyre, on 19 February 2012 - 09:39 PM, said:

Yes, I believe it's quite possible that the Kindly Man knows about Needle. In fact, do we know if the sword is still in that crack in the stairs?

Its still there. The Kindly Man's only interest in the sword is how Arya interacts with it, so he is going to make sure it remains there.

Also I think everyone is overlooking somewhat that Arya's FM controllers are not stupid. They have to know that part of Arya joining them is because she believes all her family are dead. And they have to know how she might react when she finds out they are not, yet the are still accepting her. I think when Arya asks they will let her go, either as an extended Sabbatical or a deep undercover agent. Someone suggested that Varys is a FM and Arya will do something like that, certainly possible.

The fact that she was given the FM coin, an invitation to join, suggests that everything is happening according to the FM design. They know she will likely take a leave of absence but its all part of the plan. They might not know about the warg, however Arya using the cat in the fight when she was blind might have given that away. I see no reason not to suppose the Kindly man is not very sharp and intelligent and good at judging people.

Edited by Tharg, 29 March 2012 - 10:15 AM.

[ManyFacedOne]

Errant Bard, on 29 March 2012 - 01:15 AM, said:

seems interesting that when she drops out of her Cat role, what she misses is the role, not people she doesn't see anymore. For that she doesn't care.

I think it's safe to say the people and the relationships she had are why she missed the role. I'm sure it wasn't just selling fish that was so appealing to her.

[Jack's Smirking Revenge]

Errant Bard, on 29 March 2012 - 01:15 AM, said:

She did. Not sure about now in Braavos: the extent of her empathy follows how useful the guys are to her; seems interesting that when she drops out of her Cat role, what she misses is the role, not people she doesn't see anymore. For that she doesn't care.

Any kill is justifiale when you see it in the murderer's eyes. When it's not in cold blood, they get a pass (but she was scared and it was in the heat of the moment), and when it's in cold blood it's ok too (but her upbringing is what makes her kill Dareon), meanwhile, when it's Joffrey the exact same action (you know, killing a traitor/deserter) is viewed as the worst thing ever.

Arya had to kill to survive.  Her most cold-blooded act, the killing of the merchant is not justifiable to me.  The killing of Dareon was understandable, she grew up with Ned Stark as her father after all.  I'm sure Dareon really pissed her off abandoning his post, I'm not quite sure how I feel about that situation.  I don't know if I'd consider cold-blooded liker actions in ADWD. The other "kills" were also understandable at least.

I wonder about Arya now also.  I think she still has the ability to empathize with people so I don't think she's a sociopath or anything like that.  She is extremely damaged and headed down a dangerous path but I think that if she returns to Westeros in TWOW she'll won't be too far gone.

[Serbrienne]

I think the FM will give her a mark that will truly test where she stands with them and with herself and this will bring her back into the main story. But who will this mark be? and who's face will she use?

[Lady Hodor]

Arya's morality is interesting, but she is certainly not evil. She kills, sure, and is not always friendly, but she knows what is right, and does it.

[ManyFacedOne]

Tharg, on 29 March 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

Yesish. The point about Daeron is that in Arya's mind she was doing the right thing. She is the last true born Stark alive, and she has been brought up to believe its the families job to defend the North and executing deserters is part of that. Remember the first Chapter, her father teaching his children that its something they have to do for themselves. Also of course she thinks she is doing John a favour.

That's how she justifies it to herself and the Kindly Man, but the real reason she killed him was to impress the group of killers she's living with (they promoted her so it did work). And also because she was mad at him for not wanting to go back to the Wall just when she was about to ask him to take her back with him. I don't think doing the right thing ever came into it.

Also, she didn't know then that Jon was the LC.

Edited by ManyFacedOne, 14 April 2012 - 04:44 PM.

[Lady Kraken]

Lady Hodor, on 14 April 2012 - 04:18 PM, said:

Arya's morality is interesting, but she is certainly not evil. She kills, sure, and is not always friendly, but she knows what is right, and does it.

I would have mostly agreed with you before the murder of the insurance guy. I think that particular murder marked an unsettling turning point for Arya (though I will admit the manner of Daeron's death disturbed me as well). I would argue here that she knows killing the man isn't right because she really doesn't know much about him, she's not in immediate danger from him or being threatened by him in any way, he's never done anything to harm her or someone she cares about, but she does it anyways. Yes, she attempts to justify it in her mind, which suggests to me at least she's still far from "evil," but this marks a point for me where Arya isn't doing what's right.

That being said, it certainly hasn't made me lose hope in Arya. I'm just more concerned about her future now, I guess.

[Milcov]

Quote

Arya's morality is interesting, but she is certainly not evil. She kills, sure, and is not always friendly, but she knows what is right, and does it

I don't agree with that. It was made very clear to Arya that she wasn't killing the insurer because he deserved it or that he was a bad man. She kills him nonetheless, she tries to justify the killings to herself but it doesn't matter to the FM. She's partly bothered by justification so that she doesn't feel like a sociopath but really she has no qualms about killing.

Serbrienne, on 14 April 2012 - 03:48 PM, said:

I think the FM will give her a mark that will truly test where she stands with them and with herself and this will bring her back into the main story. But who will this mark be? and who's face will she use?

Remember the faceless men can't kill anyone they know.

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

Errant Bard, on 29 March 2012 - 01:15 AM, said:

She did. Not sure about now in Braavos: the extent of her empathy follows how useful the guys are to her; seems interesting that when she drops out of her Cat role, what she misses is the role, not people she doesn't see anymore. For that she doesn't care.

Well, to be fair, in The Blind Girl chapter, this is what she thinks:

She missed the friends she'd had when she was Cat of the Canals; Old Brusco with his bad back, his daughters Talea and Brea, the mummers from the Ship, Merry and her whores at the Happy Port, all the other rogues and wharfside scum. She missed Cat herself the most of all, even more than she missed her eyes. She had liked being Cat, more than she had ever liked being Salty or Squab or Weasel or Arry.

She does explicitly mention the people. Also, considering that Cat represented a form of stability and safety, and what she went through, as a young child nonetheless, when she had to play the other roles, this way of phrasing it makes perfect sense. Empathy, or lack of it, does not really come into play. The important thing is that she liked the feeling of having a normal life, instead of having one filled with confusion and fear and feeling powerless.

Also, you might like having a specific job in a specific location because you like your work and the vistas. If, when you move on to something else, you don't miss your co-workers or the local population as much, that doesn't make you short on empathy. It's possible to empathize with people even if you don't care whether you'll see them again or not.

Be that as it may. It is clear that she's going down a very dark path. She tries to justify the kill in ADWD, but she still goes ahead even though the justification is ultimately missing. While this is, of course, not a complete deviation from the previous path she was on, it's the first time she kills someone who is not connected in any way, shape, or form to Arya Stark and what Arya Stark is up to at the moment. I think it's significant.

Arya is my favorite character, and I'm a bit worried. There is still all sorts of potential for turning things around, but as long as GRRM makes it interesting I'll probably handle whatever may come anyways... What I don't believe, however, is that she'll somehow turn into a fully fledged master assassin by the end of the books. Soon, the warging will become very important and that will take precedence over finishing her FM training.

Just an aside: My favorite dynamic duos in this world of ASOIAF are Dunk & Egg and Sandor & Arya. There are surely some interesting parallels and contrasts there...

Edited by Howlin' Howland Reed, 14 April 2012 - 06:12 PM.