120 replies to this topic

[The Monkey]

Howlin, on 14 April 2012 - 06:12 PM, said:

Be that as it may. It is clear that she's going down a very dark path. She tries to justify the kill in ADWD, but she still goes ahead even though the justification is ultimately missing. While this is, of course, not a complete deviation from the previous path she was on, it's the first time she kills someone who is not connected in any way, shape, or form to Arya Stark and what Arya Stark is up to at the moment. I think it's significant.

She didn't justify her killing of the Bolton soldier standing guard in Harrenhal at the end of aCoK, and that was three books ago. He was as innocent as anybody. He was simply in the way of her goals (in this case, getting out of Harrenhal), and I think that's what Arya's philosophy has always been about. She doesn't kill randomly or for pleasure, but if anyone stands in her way (whether they have done something bad or not), they're shit out of luck.

[CurP]

A lot of people from the books are awful people by modern standard...

Anyways, Arya is a kid... even if a smart kid. She is stubborn and sometimes does things simply because...

"I could if I wanted to", this is Arya's line used a few times... like the response to kindly older man, it totally sounded to me like a kid trying in some way to proof herself in eyes of the others.

She is a product of her environment, still with some moral core despite all.

She is freaking 10 years old... you can't exactly expect her to do much differently if all she sees is death mostly around her... and that killing seems like a good way to solve problems/survive when necessary.

She is still growing up, a 10 year old... almost 11 perhaps.. that mostly lives from moment to moment. Like decision to get on the ship in saltpans for example and bunch of the others...


She is a kid, that needs to grow up.. what she grows up into.. remains to be seen.
I

[Elaena Targaryen]

Awesome Oberyn Martell, on 14 April 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

I don't agree with that. It was made very clear to Arya that she wasn't killing the insurer because he deserved it or that he was a bad man. She kills him nonetheless, she tries to justify the killings to herself but it doesn't matter to the FM. She's partly bothered by justification so that she doesn't feel like a sociopath but really she has no qualms about killing.

I'm not saying I approve of the murder but I would not go so far as to say... "It was made very clear to Arya that she wasn't killing the insurer because he deserved it or that he was a bad man"  

Quote

Cat did not understand. “They pay him gold and silver, but he only gives them writing. Are they
stupid?”

“A few, mayhaps. Most are simply cautious. Some think to cozen him. He is not a man easily
cozened, however.”

“But what is he selling them?”

“He is writing each a binder. If their ships are lost in a storm or taken by pirates, he promises to
pay them for the value of the vessel and all its contents.”

“Is it some kind of wager?”

“Of a sort. A wager every captain hopes to lose.”

“Yes, but if they win …”

“… they lose their ships, oftimes their very lives. The seas are dangerous, and never more so
than in autumn. No doubt many a captain sinking in a storm has taken some small solace in his
binder back in Braavos, knowing that his widow and children will not want.” A sad smile touched his lips. “It is one thing to write such a binder, though, and another to make good on it.”

Cat understood. One of them must hate him. One of them came to the House of Black and White
and prayed for the god to take him. She wondered who it had been, but the kindly man would not tell her. “It is not for you to pry into such matters,” he said. “Who are you?”

“No one.”

[DannySpud]

She definitely has morals still, but yes she is doing some morally grey stuff at the moment (not the guard, that was necessary). I think she believes the people she is told to kill deserve to die, but when she is told to kill someone who clearly doesn't deserve to die she'll realise and this is what will pull her away from the House of Black and White (and advance her story).

[eyeheartsansa]

Arya is balancing a fine line between Chaotic Good and Chaotic Neutral; it's gotten easier and easier for her to kill, and like her daddy said, killing shouldn't be so easy.

She easily gets the 'but she's been through so much!' pass card that we love to hand out to more likeable characters.

Whatever happens, I'm rooting for her, and really hope she gets to keep her face.

[Exitao]

Her trek through Westeros taught her that life was cheap, too.  However, killing the singer because he was a deserter, would seem an indicator that she still has some concept of justice.

To make things more ambiguous, the lady of the leaves said something about her smelling of deat &c, perhaps Arya was always chosen to be a tool of a god.  If that's the case, it make a vast difference in how to judge her ethics.

[James Arryn]

I don't really think she has morals, though.

She has values, she may have a notion of ethics, and she definitely has wants, but I don't see much evidence of morals.

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

The Monkey, on 14 April 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

Howlin, on 14 April 2012 - 06:12 PM, said:

Be that as it may. It is clear that she's going down a very dark path. She tries to justify the kill in ADWD, but she still goes ahead even though the justification is ultimately missing. While this is, of course, not a complete deviation from the previous path she was on, it's the first time she kills someone who is not connected in any way, shape, or form to Arya Stark and what Arya Stark is up to at the moment. I think it's significant.

She didn't justify her killing of the Bolton soldier standing guard in Harrenhal at the end of aCoK, and that was three books ago. He was as innocent as anybody. He was simply in the way of her goals (in this case, getting out of Harrenhal), and I think that's what Arya's philosophy has always been about. She doesn't kill randomly or for pleasure, but if anyone stands in her way (whether they have done something bad or not), they're shit out of luck.

I wasn't talking about justification in the judicial sense. The bolded part is what I was talking about.

When she fled Harrenhal and killed the guard, she justified her actions like this:
"Oh noes, this is a dangerous place and I need to get the fuck out. Now!"

In ADWD it went a little something like this:
ARY: "So, he's a Very Bad Person, right? That's why I kill him?"
KOM: "Well, sort of, he's an insurance salesman that doesn't like to pay insurance. Someone was very unhappy about that, and prepared to pay our price."
ARY: "Yes... well, I don't really have any experience with that sort of thing, neither is the guy a threat to me, or directly standing in my way. Is it some poor old widow, with 8 mouths to feed, who paid the price?"
KOM: "None of your business, really. Will you do it?"
ARY: "I guess... After all, I'm no one."
KOM: "Sure you are."

She's been down a badly lit path for awhile, but in ADWD I think one of the flickering torches lighting it went out, making it a bit darker.

Edited by Howlin' Howland Reed, 15 April 2012 - 03:21 AM.

[Maroucia]

Arya hated the Hound when she travelled with him and thought he was the worst guy around all of Westeros, but truly when you take a good look at it, she is EXACLY like him!

They have the same rage and both had to learn to think for themselves at extremely young ages. That was what was so funny about their time together: CHARACTER TWINS!!!

Arya will never admit it, but I’m sure Sandor saw it a little…

As for Arya becoming a villain in the furure, I don’t see it happening, as I don’t see the Hound as being one either…

[Awesome Oberyn Martell]

Maroucia, on 15 April 2012 - 04:00 AM, said:

Arya hated the Hound when she travelled with him and thought he was the worst guy around all of Westeros, but truly when you take a good look at it, she is EXACLY like him!

They have the same rage and both had to learn to think for themselves at extremely young ages. That was what was so funny about their time together: CHARACTER TWINS!!!

Arya will never admit it, but I’m sure Sandor saw it a little…

As for Arya becoming a villain in the furure, I don’t see it happening, as I don’t see the Hound as being one either…

This is an interesting point, that could be expanded to the deaths of Mycah and the Insurance Salesman. Sandor killed Mycah because he just obeyed regardless of whether Mycah deserved to die, likewise with Arya.

[Elaena Targaryen]

James Arryn, on 15 April 2012 - 12:50 AM, said:

I don't really think she has morals, though.

She has values, she may have a notion of ethics, and she definitely has wants, but I don't see much evidence of morals.

I was curious if you would mind being a little more specific? I find whether or not Arya has morals interesting and worthy of discussion. It may be easier if you list choices Arya has made where you feel she lacked morals in that event, like maybe a kill / murder. I will say a while ago I started a thread where I asked if the posters agreed with Arya's choices, then attempting to be unbiased I listed many options because I knew people have varied opinions concerning Arya. I must say most posters felt Arya had no choice in most cases, even some of her more questionable choices. One thing I wanted to point out, is while I believe that I understand what you mean in your post, that a synonym for ethics is morals.

[eyomomo]

Elaena Targaryen, on 15 April 2012 - 09:01 AM, said:

I was curious if you would mind being a little more specific? I find whether or not Arya has morals interesting and worthy of discussion. It may be easier if you list choices Arya has made where you feel she lacked morals in that event, like maybe a kill / murder. I will say a while ago I started a thread where I asked if the posters agreed with Arya's choices, then attempting to be unbiased I listed many options because I knew people have varied opinions concerning Arya. I must say most posters felt Arya had no choice in most cases, even some of her more questionable choices. One thing I wanted to point out, is while I believe that I understand what you mean in your post, that a synonym for ethics is morals.

i think i understand what JamesArryn meant, and it all comes down to the difference in meaning between morals and ethics/values. Morals are rules and principles of right wrong which are shaped around social norms and constructs, such as the state or church, while ethics and values are more personal ideas of what is right versus what is wrong. Such as Arya's killing of the Black Singer (I forgot his name). Morally, killing him was wrong because she is in no position to decide who lives or dies, but in Arya's mind, it suited her code of ethics to kill him, because he was a deserter.

Edited by eyomomo, 15 April 2012 - 09:19 AM.

[Elaena Targaryen]

eyomomo, on 15 April 2012 - 09:18 AM, said:

i think i understand what JamesArryn meant, and it all comes down to the difference in meaning between morals and ethics/values. Morals are rules and principles of right wrong which are shaped around social norms and constructs, such as the state or church, while ethics and values are more personal ideas of what is right versus what is wrong. Such as Arya's killing of the Black Singer (I forgot his name). Morally, killing him was wrong because she is in no position to decide who lives or dies, but in Arya's mind, it suited her code of ethics to kill him, because he was a deserter.

Yes I believe I understand what James Arryn meant also but this is why I feel it's worthy of discussion because Arya was written in a tricky way regaurding morals, ethics and values in a case by case manner. In the case of the Night's Watch deserter Dareon it can be argued in the opposite way. Arya was following the principles of right or wrong which was shaped around social norms and constructs, such as the state or church. If deserting the NW was not punishable by death in her society then she would have never killed him. Now where it gets tricky is debating whether she had the right to enforce the laws of her land, people and religions. This is why I would like to see a discussion about Arya's morals, and maybe we should start a new thread, because it's interesting.

[jormungandyr]

eyeheartsansa, on 14 April 2012 - 09:29 PM, said:

Arya is balancing a fine line between Chaotic Good and Chaotic Neutral; it's gotten easier and easier for her to kill, and like her daddy said, killing shouldn't be so easy.

She easily gets the 'but she's been through so much!' pass card that we love to hand out to more likeable characters.

Whatever happens, I'm rooting for her, and really hope she gets to keep her face.

eyeheartsansa, on 14 April 2012 - 09:29 PM, said:

Arya is balancing a fine line between Chaotic Good and Chaotic Neutral; it's gotten easier and easier for her to kill, and like her daddy said, killing shouldn't be so easy.

She easily gets the 'but she's been through so much!' pass card that we love to hand out to more likeable characters.

Whatever happens, I'm rooting for her, and really hope she gets to keep her face.

LOVE the AD & D reference.... and bang on, too.

she's by far my favourite character in a series of so many enjoyable characters, so i'm hoping that she plays a big part of the endgame.

[Kittyhat]

Howlin, on 15 April 2012 - 03:19 AM, said:

When she fled Harrenhal and killed the guard, she justified her actions like this:
"Oh noes, this is a dangerous place and I need to get the fuck out. Now!"

In ADWD it went a little something like this:
ARY: "So, he's a Very Bad Person, right? That's why I kill him?"
KOM: "Well, sort of, he's an insurance salesman that doesn't like to pay insurance. Someone was very unhappy about that, and prepared to pay our price."
ARY: "Yes... well, I don't really have any experience with that sort of thing, neither is the guy a threat to me, or directly standing in my way. Is it some poor old widow, with 8 mouths to feed, who paid the price?"
KOM: "None of your business, really. Will you do it?"
ARY: "I guess... After all, I'm no one."
KOM: "Sure you are."

She's been down a badly lit path for awhile, but in ADWD I think one of the flickering torches lighting it went out, making it a bit darker.

I actually agree with this, and I also agree that the kill in ADWD was easily her darkest to date.  The stable boy and the guard at Harrenhal were about survival, and Dareon and especially the Tickler deserved it ... but this ...

... this was very different.

However, I find it equally important that Arya was still struggling desperately to convince herself that the killing was somehow justifiable.  If she's still wrestling with her conscience, then that means she still has one.

If that stops, then she'll be truly lost.

[gandalfxj]

I don't think Arya will become a FM her wolf-bond is too strong and also she needs to be reintegratet into the plot in Westeros. At the moment she is an apprentice of the FM. There will be some oath before she can be a true FM. So at the moment she hasn't reached the point of no return. Probably she will kill somebody else she knows, like with the singer from the wall. There are a few people heding to Braavos she knows and wants to kill! At that point the FM have to expell her from the order or punish her. I don't think the FM could kill her. They don't judge people and they don't decide who lives and who gets killed. They are just an instrument. So basically it is impossible for them to kill Arya and stay true to their beliefs.

[BabyMeraxes]

Arya's arch is arguably my favorite in the series. I agree that she won't become a FM, but she's going to learn their shit and use it how she feels fit. Will Arya turn evil? Probably not. Maybe if she's contracted to kill Sansa and goes through with it, but, again, I don't think that will ever happen. But if Arya does go evil, it's going to challenge your conception of what evil is. On the other hand, I don't think Arya is ever going to be that beacon of honor and goodness that her father tried to be. Arya's living for Arya, and that's enough for me.

[Lord Martin]

Arya will head back to Westeros when work of fake Arya reaches her via Justin Massey.

She'll end up blown off course and end up in Gulltown.  By then Aegon will have displaced the Lannisters (because he is the Valonquar) and taken the Iron Throne.  Also by then, Stannis will have taken Winterfell and the fake Arya has been outed.  Baelish will then reveal Sansa and wed her to Harry the Heir.

Arya then goes to her sister and helps her kill Baelish or perhaps frame him for Harry's death when he turns out to be a d-bag.  

Baelish will have tried to unite The Vale, Riverlands and North.  But Sana and Arya will be successful where he failed when the Blackfish comes to them and Arya is reunited with Nymeria in the Riverlands.

[Howling Mad]

IMO Arya's means will be justified in the end, YMMV.

[eyeheartsansa]

jormungandyr, on 21 April 2012 - 05:39 PM, said:

LOVE the AD & D reference.... and bang on, too.

she's by far my favourite character in a series of so many enjoyable characters, so i'm hoping that she plays a big part of the endgame.

She's just so easy to love because she's smart and feisty and generally baddass!

I meant to add to my prior comment...

Dear Arya,

please, please, please somehow team up with Varys.  That would just be all kinds of awesome.

Edited by eyeheartsansa, 04 May 2012 - 10:12 AM.