Sansa Lannister, v.2

[Angalin]

From FanTasy's last post in the previous thread:

Sansa was a captive and held captive by people who were not terribly interested in her civil rights, if there were any civil rights in Westeros.

The text gives evidence how the wedding was made legit by the Lannisters.

Her surviving brother was a traitor. Her father was dead.

So Joffrey as King took it as his right to give her from House Stark to House Lannister.

We are told twice by GRRM how it was done. It's in ASOS.

Does this feel terribly wrong? Of course it does.

And the choice between Tyrion and Lancel ...

Lancel was wounded. Joff promised Sansa he would claim his right as a king. Would Lancel have stopped Joff?

Remember who

did

stop Jofffrey at the wedding, when Joff wanted to begin with a nasty bedding?

Who told Joffrey what would happen if he proceeded?

Who saved Sansa from the bedding ceremony, for which she was terribly afraid?

And a couple of things to keep in mind: recommending that someone go to the Ironborn as a salt wife is interpreted by me as rape advocacy. Not okay. Secondly, it's possible to disagree with someone's opinion without dredging up insults to throw at him or her; that doesn't make your argument any stronger.

[Raksha the Demon]

Femininity and passivity in the face of obstacles should be lauded or seen as a good thing? Oh dear, you just set us back a few centuries. Thank goodness for all of the fierce women before us who did not remain passive when they were not allowed to vote, or own land, or marry men of a different race. That was about the most mysoginistic post I have ever seen. Sansa is not disliked because she is feminine and beautiful. She is disliked because of her decisions and lack of common sense. Arya is not liked because she is a tomboy. She is liked because even though she is younger than Sansa, she is smarter and braver. Cersei is not disliked because she is beautiful, she is disliked because she is one of the best villains ever. She is a psychopath. I love Brienne as a character. She isn't passive in the face of obstacles either. Quite the opposite. Melissandre is beautiful, but some dislike her because they see her as a religious fanatic. I have to praise the both of you, however, for your excellent tactics in discrediting anyone who doesn't love Sansa and loves Tyrion. Calling such people mysoginists and psychopaths is perfect use of poisoning the well. Unbelievable, truly amazing.

And just how brave and active was Brienne at the age of eleven or twelve? I don't think she was running around the country being a knight. She did that later; she devoted herself to something she was passionate about, learned to sword-fight, and then became a warrior. As for how much better and interesting Arya is than Sansa; Arya has become a cold-blooded murderer, assassinating a stranger because her mentor (a man of very dubious morality in my opinion) told her to do so. I don't blame Arya; she's a little girl whose moral development has gone drastically askew because of the horrors she has witnessed and the lack of proper moral guidance during the last two years. If she was so smart, she would have asked Jaquen to kill Cersei Lannister as one of her three chances, or asked the Kindly Man to send her to Jon. But Arya was a child; and had the intelligence of a preteen little girl, not a 14-year-old or 20-year-old.

I don't blame Sansa for not striking out with a dagger and trying to run from King's Landing; she was constantly guarded; and then had the Kingsguard beating her regularly; and she managed to use the weapons she had left - observation, learning to obfuscate and lie, befriending two very dubious 'protectors' (Sandor and Dontos) who later gave her valuable assistance that kept her alive. (Sandor saved her from a mob that would have at the very least raped her, if not killed her; Dontos did not help her just for the money; it was pretty obvious that he was trying to get at least some of his self-respect back by helping Sansa escape; and if he had not helped her get out of King's Landing the night of the Purple Wedding, Cersei would have thrown Sansa into a dungeon and had Qyburn torture a false confession out of her before having her executed). Sansa's arc may not be as adventurous as Arya's, but it is far more realistic in terms of how a real girl could survive her situation.

I don't call people who dislike the character of Sansa misogynists or psychopaths. Sansa is a fictional character. I find her character, and her journey through the murky waters of treachery, murder, violence, pain, sexuality and great danger as she is trying both to survive and grow up, fascinating. How much will she grow and learn; how will she retain that capacity for compassion that she has shown; will she be able to balance practical political maneuvering with the honor that exemplified her father and helped cause his death - can she find a balance? I find these issues much more interesting than wondering who Arya is going to kill next and what kind of face she'll wear. But I recognize that other readers will disagree.

I think femininity and passivity in the face of obstacles should not necessarily be sneered at when the person is 12 years old and has no other options, or at least no realistic options. If Sansa had killed Joffrey, as she wanted to and thought of doing, after he made her look at the heads of her father and various Stark retainers, she would have either fallen to her death with him or been killed shortly afterwards. (Arya was able to escape because Syrio held off the guards and Arya was then able to surprise the luckless stableboy with a death-strike; and slip out through the yard where no one recognized a shabbily dressed child as the Hand's daughter) Sansa's skills and character keep her alive through her ordeal at King's Landing and probably will in the Eyrie and in the Vale; just as Arya's more fierce character and tendency to use physical violence helped her survive a dangerous journey and might continue to do so. Sansa would probably not have survived if she had gone with Yoren toward the Wall; she would have been raped and killed. Arya would have fought hard if she had stayed in King's Landing, and probably been hurt much worse, or locked up, at the very least, if she had stayed in Cersei's custody instead of Sansa; I can imagine Arya doing her best to make fun of Joffrey and embarrass him and his unleashing the Kingsguard on her with no prohibitions, Joffrey being such a cowardly little sadist...

[1234567]

Lancel was wounded. Joff promised Sansa he would claim his right as a king. Would Lancel have stopped Joff?

Lancel....probably not. Kevin would most certainly have stopped it though as he would not have wanted his heir's wife baring any children but his son's. Indeed Kevin does stand up to Joff over his treatment of Sansa over Robb's Head (as does Tyrion).

Remember who did stop Jofffrey at the wedding, when Joff wanted to begin with a nasty bedding?

Who told Joffrey what would happen if he proceeded?

Who saved Sansa from the bedding ceremony, for which she was terribly afraid?

Tywin. and God it pains me to have to admit anything good about that man.

Tyrion threatened Joff, but it was Tywin who decided the bedding should be dispensed with. Tyrion then went storming out of the room angry and humiliated a nearly in tears Sansa in the process.

Also on the morning of Joff's wedding, he publicly jokes about making Tyrion take Sansa to his bed and Tyrion says nothing. Although Sansa is really anxious and then releaved when he doesn't.

In the litter on the way to or from the wedding Tyrion actually thinks that he needs to get out of KL because Joff might kill him in a couple of years and actually thinks that the cloak in the wedding was a jape because he can't protect her.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Thank you. Yes, I can see why you took offense here.

I didn't like Sansa not kneeling for Tyrion to let him cloak her, so he had to marry her standing at the back of a fool.

That was not nice. But I can understand where this came from and considering what Sansa went through it would not be fair to blame her for this.

Refusing to kneel was the best thing Sansa's ever done. It's not as good as sticking Tyrion with the pointing end, but a "fuck you, Lannisters" none the less. It's too bad she had to minimize the effect by offering to open the dancing at her wedding with Tyrion, and then dancing herself – her desire to dance at her metaphorical funeral seemed rather simple-minded to me.

Yes, I like my fantasy heroines kick-ass. I can embroider, bake lemon cakes, dress nicely and dream about handsome men on my own, why the hell would I want to read a fantasy about my own damn self? (Of course, I doubt if Sansa would share my liking for hyper-violent Asian revenge movies.)

But y'know what? Even though I don't think Sansa's very bright and her passivity makes me crazy, she still doesn't deserve to be bound for life to an ugly, rude, drunken, whore mongering, woman-murdering, kinslaying, traitorous, possibly infertile (though that may be a blessing) enemy dickhead.

YMMV.

Ndrew – what's this Relm, of which you persistently speak?

[brashcandy]

Ndrew – what's this Relm, of which you persistently speak?

Oh that's an Ndrewism - to which the laws of spelling or logic need not apply :P

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

I LOVED it when she refused to kneel at the wedding!!! AAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHA......was totally awesome! I was "yeah Sansa!"

[Baitac]

16 February 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

Femininity and passivity in the face of obstacles do seem to be qualities that are particularly condemned while violent approach to situations is celebrated. What is interesting is that it is condemned quite harshly by some female posters.

That is correct. Femininity and passivity in the face of obstacle is definitely condemnable. That is the opposite of how women should be. Feminine and passive? If you don't see this, I can't help you.

You've either completely misunderstood Alexia's post, or you're trying to be deliberately obtuse. I don't know how anything she said could be labelled as "misogynistic" but I'll plunge ahead to correct the madness. The idea that being traditionally "feminine" somehow renders one incapable of being "fierce" or standing up to opposition is precisely what Alexia was challenging. I don't get the logic of comparing women that marched for the vote, to women that married men of different races either. One is a clear political choice, whilst the other is a personal one that has everything to do with love, and compatibility. Women that marched for the vote or wrote letters and campaigned also went home and sewed clothes and cooked their husbands meals. Did these women have to check their fiercecess on the step before they re-entered their domestic abodes? Or do you think they all went hunting afterwards to shoot some wild boar. The problem with these cultural norms of femininity and masculinity is that they require people to fit a certain image or possess certain "credentials" which are all social constructs of time and place, and work to completely erode individuality and unique circumstances. Bottom line: different women effect change in many different ways.

Quote

Sansa is not disliked because she is feminine and beautiful. She is disliked because of her decisions and lack of common sense. Arya is not liked because she is a tomboy. She is liked because even though she is younger than Sansa, she is smarter and braver.

Actually, Sansa is disliked quite a bit because she displays traditionally feminine characteristics. I've seen people castigate her because she didn't fight back enough, or she prefers lemoncakes and tea to going horseriding. The same way Sansa fans can admit that she was dangerously naive in the beginning of her arc, is the same way that Arya fans should be willing to admit that her violent solution to everything is a problem. Arya was actually very foolish when she hit Joff on the head with the stick. She could have killed the heir to the throne, and then what would have happened. Her rash reaction escalated the situation to an all out disaster.

Quote

Cersei is not disliked because she is beautiful, she is disliked because she is one of the best villains ever. She is a psychopath

And yet, when many posters critique Cersei, they do so on the basis of her sexuality. How many men she's slept with, how she dishonoured her relationship with Jaime, how the walk of shame was the best punishment for her, etc etc. Perhaps you need to check out some old Cersei threads to see this for yourself.

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I love Brienne as a character. She isn't passive in the face of obstacles either.

Again, proving Alexia's point. Women that are "martial" are seen as somehow better than their counterparts who don't pick up a sword or wield sticks.

Quote

Calling such people mysoginists and psychopaths is perfect use of poisoning the well. Unbelievable, truly amazing.

Clearly you haven't read this entire thread. If you had, then you wouldn't be spouting folly about "poisoning wells". Some posters are capable of doing that all on their own. And Alexia's comments weren't restricted to this forum alone, unless you think that the internet isn't a place where you find all types of people. However, on this thread, you'll see little gems such as Sansa should be given to Euron as a salt wife, or maybe to Ramsay Bolton. Or she hasn't done anything in four books but look pretty.

Edited by brashcandy, 36 minutes ago.

I read the entire thread and I understand what "femininity and passivity are qualities that are particularly condemned" means. Of course they should be condemned. The fact that you don't see the logic in including voting, land, and marital rights as battles fought by women (and men) who decided not to just be pretty and passive is not surprising. They were all laws against women's rights. Yes, it was against the law to marry outside your race. Maybe I should be happy that this is all taken for granted these days. Those fierce women that you mentioned went out, shot "the boar", skinned it cooked it, and cleaned up afterward. They were feminine, but not passive.

Again, Sansa is disliked not because of her looks, but because of her actions, decisions, and inaction. None of this is new to you. Arya's "solution to everything" is not violence. She hit Joff because he was an ass. She saw this, we saw this. She was brave. People like this about her. Brienne is very well liked because she is good and loyal. Catelyn is liked because she is seen as a partner to Ed. She has been a good mother. She is a war advisor. She wasn't "martial", and she is still liked.

Cersei is disliked for all of the reasons you mentioned. Are you saying that she shouldn't be criticized for using sex as a weapon or sleeping with her brother or a million other reasons? She would be disliked even if she looked like the wicked witch of the west. It is not about being pretty, it's about being mean. Do you really think people say: "that darn Dany, that darn Sansa! I hate them because they are so beautiful." I love them both, actually. However, I will never ever like a character because she is feminine and passive. Never.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Oh that's an Ndrewism - to which the laws of spelling or logic need not apply :P

Thank you for the clarification.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

poor cersei....if i had a brother who looked like Jaime (OK this is based upon the actor HAH), I would seriously consider it!!! hahahaahahhaaaa

(OK I don't even have a brother so I can make that joke)

I didn't like Cat....she was a little arrogant, prideful and an idiot (personal opinion there)

sansa just needs to grow up a bit more is all

[Baitac]

Raksha: you can like Sansa and dislike Arya. I responded to a series of posts that mentioned that this particular fandom is full of "misogynists and psychopaths." Furthermore, that people in the forum don't like women characters. Then, to top it off, that posters have problems with women characters who are feminine and passive. I tried to explain that this was precisely the problem with Sansa, that it wasn't about her beauty, but her actions. Her decisions from the very beginning got her into trouble. You know the story, and why people don't like her. You seem to like Sansa more than Arya. Does it have to do with beauty? Of course not. I like and dislike all sorts of characters. I felt I should speak up because these characterizations about this fandom were not fair to all of us.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

I liked both Sansa and Arya.

Arya I like her for her badassery, and the way she copes and survives and she fulfills even a revenge fantasy aspect. I do find her a somewhat ridiculous and unrealistic character but that is overshadowed by how I enjoy her character, I mean I can suspend disbelief. Lately the whole "I am nobody" aspect of her storyline sort of bores me.

I like Sansa and find her as a more realistic portrayal of a character and seeing how she copes with unbelievably difficult situations. Her passivity hasn't pissed me off, yet but I want her to change and to become some sort of a player, reading about the same Sansa would eventually become tiring. It didn't because there was a transformation from GOT to COK and so on, and Sansa is an interesting character in how she copes with problems and now in AFFC there seems to be some sort of transformation too but I would like to see Sansa opposing LF eventually.

[brashcandy]

Raksha: you can like Sansa and dislike Arya. I responded to a series of posts that mentioned that this particular fandom is full of "misogynists and psychopaths." Furthermore, that people in the forum don't like women characters. Then, to top it off, that posters have problems with women characters who are feminine and passive. I tried to explain that this was precisely the problem with Sansa, that it wasn't about her beauty, but her actions. Her decisions from the very beginning got her into trouble. You know the story, and why people don't like her. You seem to like Sansa more than Arya. Does it have to do with beauty? Of course not. I like and dislike all sorts of characters. I felt I should speak up because these characterizations about this fandom were not fair to all of us.

Raksha: you can like Sansa and dislike Arya. I responded to a series of posts that mentioned that this particular fandom is full of "misogynists and psychopaths." Furthermore, that people in the forum don't like women characters. Then, to top it off, that posters have problems with women characters who are feminine and passive. I tried to explain that this was precisely the problem with Sansa, that it wasn't about her beauty, but her actions. Her decisions from the very beginning got her into trouble. You know the story, and why people don't like her. You seem to like Sansa more than Arya. Does it have to do with beauty? Of course not. I like and dislike all sorts of characters. I felt I should speak up because these characterizations about this fandom were not fair to all of us.

Again, no one said that all people who dislike Sansa are misogynists and psychopaths. The point was made that there is a troubling section of the fandom - both in ASOIAF and others, that actively advocates for women to be either sexually humiliated, dominated, or kept in subservient positions which negate their autonomy and individuality, all in the service of "cool, male characters." Now this assault on certain women as feminine and passive needs to be challenged. As I said in my earlier post to you, different women effect change differently. What may strike us as "passive" may be the exact attitude that a woman needed to adopt to survive and triumph over adversity. This idea that just because someone isn't "mouthy" or doesn't take up arms, that their suffering is any less real or impactful is wrong. Traditional femininity does not equate to passivity. Those who believe that are still very much operating within a patriarchal mindset that creates these stereotypical binaries which do nothing to advance women's causes. It's a shame that Sansa's development is marginalized and denigrated by many posters, who on the one hand, castigate her for not acting more like her sister Arya when she's imprisoned by the Lannisters, but who then get upset when she shows opposition to their favourite male character in her marriage to him. Instead of belittling what it is that Sansa does to survive her captivity and marriage, and what it is that she does to resist it, why don't we instead focus on the clever ways she actually manages to subvert authority and make her voice heard. This to me is a much more enriching exercise, and does a lot more credit to the character.

[1234567]

I read the entire thread and I understand what "femininity and passivity are qualities that are particularly condemned" means. Of course they should be condemned.

You really think femininity should be condemned? Generally the term seems to invoke ideas of kindness, compassion, nurturing and gentleness. None of which seem bad in my book.

Being passive in all situations is certainly not ideal, but passive resistance has worked in the past.

The fact that you don't see the logic in including voting, land, and marital rights as battles fought by women (and men) who decided not to just be pretty and passive is not surprising. They were all laws against women's rights. Yes, it was against the law to marry outside your race. Maybe I should be happy that this is all taken for granted these days. Those fierce women that you mentioned went out, shot "the boar", skinned it cooked it, and cleaned up afterward. They were feminine, but not passive.

The point is that Sansa's passive resistance to her situation (planning her escape, whilst doing as she is told to save herself some pain, publically walking out of the Sept when asked to pray for Joff etc) is every bit as valid as Arya's leaping to violence in every conflict. Sansa tries to mediate a more peaceful way through situations. Passivity is a calming influence to the parties involved.

In terms of votes for women the violent actions and publicity stunts of the Sufragettes often hurt their cause, compared to the Suffragists who engaged in moderate and welcome debate.

Again, Sansa is disliked not because of her looks, but because of her actions, decisions, and inaction. None of this is new to you. Arya's "solution to everything" is not violence. She hit Joff because he was an ass. She saw this, we saw this. She was brave.

She hit the Crown Prince completely disproportionately to the situation at hand. Sansa was already trying to intervene with words and Arya went for the violent method. Arya wasn't afraid when she hit Joff, she was angry. Hitting him wasn't brave, it was bloody stupid.

People like this about her. Brienne is very well liked because she is good and loyal. Catelyn is liked because she is seen as a partner to Ed. She has been a good mother. She is a war advisor. She wasn't "martial", and she is still liked.

People. Like. Cat..... :shocked: What forum have you been reading?

Cersei is disliked for all of the reasons you mentioned. Are you saying that she shouldn't be criticized for using sex as a weapon or sleeping with her brother or a million other reasons? She would be disliked even if she looked like the wicked witch of the west. It is not about being pretty, it's about being mean.

Yet when people mention why they hate Cersei the first things that generally come up aren't her treatment of the Starks or sending people to Qyburn, but that she is a whore who betrayed Jaime. A bit like whenever Shae is mentioned, she seems to have deserved her fate (according to some posters) because she humiliated Tyrion with the Giant line.

[Baitac]

Brashcandy: I find that people who don't like Sansa, start disliking her from the very beginning. They don't like her lying about the fight; they blame her for Lady's death, and on from there. You know the arguments pro and against. Same with Cersei and Dany. We should be able to do point counterpoint with all characters. If people dislike Sansa just because she's pretty, I'll call them on it. If people are incapable of seeing any redeeming qualities in Tyrion and Sandor, I call that too. I know you can support your views responsibly. When stupid teenaged boys say stupid things, I tell them, and then ignore them. As a woman, I would hope that all women posters young or old post well and kick ass.

[Revan Baratheon]

You know after all the shit both the stark girls went through...it makes me wonder if they will ever want to marry someone..in which case Rickon is the best hope for the continuety of the Starks!!(bran cant breed)

[Revan Baratheon]

Ohh i forgot..We can all agree that Catelyn was better than Sansa atleast right???

[Baitac]

Rapsie: of course I don't think femininity should be condemned. The reason some of us have disliked Sansa was her inability to be proactive when presented with situations at the beginning of the series. She has been a pawn more than a player. She is still a pawn. Since her capture, she has exercised passive resistance. In other words, action. She is a different person now, undeneibly. There are strong opinions against her because she is seen as an active or actually passive participant, but participant nonetheless in the death of an iconic figure in the series. She is the recipient of a lot of vitriol over this. The more invested we were in the Starks, the harder it was to admit to ourselves that Sansa played a part. Those who don't care about Sansa either way, did not like the Starks. Those who hate her, actually loved them. Blame it on GRRM.

[Raksha the Demon]

I liked both Sansa and Arya.

Arya I like her for her badassery, and the way she copes and survives and she fulfills even a revenge fantasy aspect. I do find her a somewhat ridiculous and unrealistic character but that is overshadowed by how I enjoy her character, I mean I can suspend disbelief. Lately the whole "I am nobody" aspect of her storyline sort of bores me.

I like Sansa and find her as a more realistic portrayal of a character and seeing how she copes with unbelievably difficult situations. Her passivity hasn't pissed me off, yet but I want her to change and to become some sort of a player, reading about the same Sansa would eventually become tiring. It didn't because there was a transformation from GOT to COK and so on, and Sansa is an interesting character in how she copes with problems and now in AFFC there seems to be some sort of transformation too but I would like to see Sansa opposing LF eventually.

If, in seven years, Sansa is still hanging back and being passive; I will appreciate her less as a character. But right now, I don't think that Sansa should be making bold, Arya-like moves. She should be observing and starting to make alliances on her own, and hopefully in a year or two, be able to start playing her own game and develop some plans and backup plans (especially some that involve the removal of Littlefinger!). There aren't that many 15-year-old outstanding political players even in Westeros; Littlefinger was still being over-romantic and foolish at that age. The trouble is that Sansa may not have time to sit back and gain wisdom and observe Littlefinger and the Vale-lords; not if she's going to save SweetRobin or (possibly) avoid detection by Cersei's agents.

On the other hand, I wish that Arya would get the h*ll out from the Faceless Men's control; I don't want to see her grow up to be a murderer-for-hire. But she's not old enough or strong enough to survive on her own and take care of herself yet.

The sad thing is that if Arya doesn't go back to Westeros within the next year or two, she might not be recognizable as 'Arya Underfoot' at all. A tall, pubescent Arya might not be recognized by many of the surviving people who glimpsed her or saw her as a little girl; though I think Sansa and Jon (if he lives) would always know her.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

If, in seven years, Sansa is still hanging back and being passive; I will appreciate her less as a character. But right now, I don't think that Sansa should be making bold, Arya-like moves. She should be observing and starting to make alliances on her own, and hopefully in a year or two, be able to start playing her own game and develop some plans and backup plans (especially some that involve the removal of Littlefinger!). There aren't that many 15-year-old outstanding political players even in Westeros; Littlefinger was still being over-romantic and foolish at that age. The trouble is that Sansa may not have time to sit back and gain wisdom and observe Littlefinger and the Vale-lords; not if she's going to save SweetRobin or (possibly) avoid detection by Cersei's agents.

On the other hand, I wish that Arya would get the h*ll out from the Faceless Men's control; I don't want to see her grow up to be a murderer-for-hire. But she's not old enough or strong enough to survive on her own and take care of herself yet.

The sad thing is that if Arya doesn't go back to Westeros within the next year or two, she might not be recognizable as 'Arya Underfoot' at all. A tall, pubescent Arya might not be recognized by many of the surviving people who glimpsed her or saw her as a little girl; though I think Sansa and Jon (if he lives) would always know her.

I don't want Sansa to necessarily be making Arya like moves but I also don't want her to be entirely passive either. I would like to see her at least be attempting to do something about LF and his plans hopefully that is where I see her storyline going. I also am interested in her eventually finding out about what LF has done to her family. I am not expecting her to be a political genius but I do want to see her attempt to scheme somewhat or attempt alliances and betray eventually LF.

Of course observing and planning her steps until she eventually makes a move against LF also counts for me as a change in behavior. So I don't want her to become like Arya even if she does change somewhat.

On the other hand, I wish that Arya would get the h*ll out from the Faceless Men's control; I don't want to see her grow up to be a murderer-for-hire. But she's not old enough or strong enough to survive on her own and take care of herself yet.

Yes her storyline is depressing. I am not entirely sure whether she can't survive of her own as a cat of the canals or in other ways. Arya in some ways seems to like killing, and I guess the Faceless men might represent some kind of a home for her more than life surviving on her own. She might see being a part of that organization as belonging somewhere. But the price of belonging to the Faceless men is her losing her identity and becoming nobody which is too high.

Arya's story is pretty creepy, depressing when you think about it.

[Woman of War]

Quote fromthe last thread by BaItac:

Femininity and passivity in the face of obstacles should be lauded or seen as a good thing? Oh dear, you just set us back a few centuries. Thank goodness for all of the fierce women before us who did not remain passive when they were not allowed to vote, or own land, or marry men of a different race. That was about the most mysoginistic post I have ever seen. Sansa is not disliked because she is feminine and beautiful. She is disliked because of her decisions and lack of common sense. Arya is not liked because she is a tomboy. She is liked because even though she is younger than Sansa, she is smarter and braver. Cersei is not disliked because she is beautiful, she is disliked because she is one of the best villains ever. She is a psychopath. I love Brienne as a character. She isn't passive in the face of obstacles either. Quite the opposite. Melissandre is beautiful, but some dislike her because they see her as a religious fanatic. I have to praise the both of you, however, for your excellent tactics in discrediting anyone who doesn't love Sansa and loves Tyrion. Calling such people mysoginists and psychopaths is perfect use of poisoning the well. Unbelievable, truly amazing

This is not a post to be dismissed by plucking at minor details. This is a summary of the basic issues in these forums here about women of today and the fictional character Sansa. That post is highly political. Why do WOMEN feel the need to defend the character Sansa with such intensity, in politically aware times of today with women as prime ministers and CEOs ( who were not born noble but had to get there all by their own effort and NONpassivity, no matter if you like their specific political party) why so much love for a noble born princess who dreams away her future? It might be interpreted as absolutely conservative image of women if a guy rooted for the fairy tale princees why do women feel the need for it, biting away everyone who disagrees. Two centuries of feminist politics have happened, where does the delight in turning the wheel backwards come from? What nerve does a fairy tale princees touch in women of today?

Is the newly won freedom to make the important decisions about our lives too much for us? Job, kids, lovelife, all those resposibilities? Do we secretly wish ourselves back to times when we were free of responsibilty and strong arms were there to catch us when life went wrong? When girls were free to dream instead of filling tax forms and fighting with divorce papers?

Do we, in all our newly won freedom, forget that the dreamy days were in fact slavery? You get nothing for free, the price for controlling your life is dear: very long days, complicated lovelife, the threat of poverty for lack of castle........ This all is the price to pay for NONpassivity. So rooting for the character that is going along with the values of her society may seem as the easy way out if you come home after a long workday, the kids didn't do their homwork and the laundry is piling up. Oh, were I a princess with a prince to save me from reality after all I have been through! He will come, certainly, one day, if I wait patiently and do not fight my fate!

Sansa is the escapist way out of a grisly story rhat may get too much for us as reall life sometimes does. The tiny spot of withdrawal into pink dreams in an otherwise cruel world. This is as legitimate as a good talk about spring fashion with your best friend or watching Desperate Housewives. Joyful escape. But do not let yourself be tempted to see this as the part of your life that really matters. Sansa in her development is truly interesting, but only if women see her for what she is: a thirteen year old little girl in puberty. We cannot project our adult women's life on her. She is not the strong erotic heroine, the object of infatuation, even of sexual fantasies, she is a rather helpless not very active little girl! This is the coming of age story of a child, always interesting but so far,far, far away from adult women of today. And erotic identification with a barely pubescent child, for adult women whose lovelife probably has a little more in store for them? Not to mention the outright reactionary and misogynist trope of "virginity" as purity, meaning that having a sex life is somewhat insulting to women, see the Cersei debate, more about that later, have to work now.

So what are adult modern women seeking here? Debate, this is not about discussing minor story details but a highly political topic.

So many gender topics here: what is the essence of "feminity" and " masculinity"? what is the role of so called feminine approaches in our world?