Sansa Lannister, v.2

[FanTasy]

But y'know what? Even though I don't think Sansa's very bright and her passivity makes me crazy, she still doesn't deserve to be bound for life to an ugly, rude, drunken, whore mongering, woman-murdering, kinslaying, traitorous, possibly infertile (though that may be a blessing) enemy dickhead.

That must have felt good, to let all that out :D

[FanTasy]

Again, no one said that all people who dislike Sansa are misogynists and psychopaths. The point was made that there is a troubling section of the fandom - both in ASOIAF and others, that actively advocates for women to be either sexually humiliated, dominated, or kept in subservient positions which negate their autonomy and individuality, all in the service of "cool, male characters." Now this assault on certain women as feminine and passive needs to be challenged.

True, and I respect and applaud all posters who do this.

On the other hand I notice that the misogynistic posts I think off - some of which were truly awful - when seen into context of what happens at a thread, sometimes tend to be provoked by how some posters talked about male characters, generalizing deplorable characterisations to all 'maledom', all 'fandom'.

I suspect most posts on these threads are posts that react to other posts.

What I am saying here is: If one uses poignant judgments and generalisations,disqualifying without discrimination, there will always be a reaction that may not be full of nuances.

Mind you, I hope that misogynistic posts will stay keep being challenged. But sometimes there is a very thin line that divides assertiveness and agressiveness.

[PatrickStormborn]

Post by Alexia:

I find it quite fascinating, actually. In this fandom, Sansa is shallow and stupid. Catelyn is an idiot. Cersei is a whore. Asha is a slut. Arianne is a slut. Daenerys is a megolomaniac. Brienne is boring. Melisandre is evil. Arya IS COOL!

On the other hand, Tyrion, Jaime, and Ned are huge fan favorites. Arya, a prepubuscent child who rejects feminine norms, is universally adored and her feminine sister blamed for the negative outcomes of Arya's actions.

At first, I thought it was something about this fandom in particular that attracts misogynists and psychopaths but playing on the Internet looking for fandom for The Walking Dead and Boardwalk Empire has made me realize that no -- it is not this individual fandom. It is a pretty universal response to female characters and feminine tropes. Female characters are only desirable as sex objects for male badasses (Tyrion/Sansa shipping) or as characters that are female in nothing besides sex organs.

It says a lot about the cultural view of women and femininity.

Excellent post, and sadly very true. Asha, Brienne and Arya are the three least hated/most popular women in this fandom, I believe, and all of them at some point have rejected femininity. And yet Brienne is unpopular for being "boring", as despite her masculine appearance and abilities, her personality is strictly feminine.

I've seen posters claim that Daenerys should not be a queen because she does not participate in battles, thus indirectly claiming that only masculine men and women can successfully rule nations. I've seen the same posters claim that she is, as you say, megalomaniac, simply because she believes in her birthright (like every man in Westeros, including fan favourite Tyrion).

Sansa is often compared to Catelyn, both of whom are despised by the fandom. And yet I think the two are almost completely different. Sansa is much more like Ned, except she was more naive than him in AGOT and she was more wary than him afterwards.

Sansa is described as shallow for not wanting to have sex with Tyrion, but I don't see anyone calling him shallow for not wanting to have sex with Penny. Daenerys is hated for taking control of her sexuality and finding a man she wants to sleep with; I've seen posters on this forum say that they want her to become Victarion's salt wife, thus destroying any independence she managed to gain by developing her own sense of sexuality.

I've noticed that many people seem to be comparing Sansa and Tyrion to Brienne and Jaime, but the situations are completely different. People don't ship Brienne/Jaime because "omg Brienne deserves a beautiful husband". They're shipped together because each of them brings out something positive in the other, and because any potential relationship between them would not be unequal. With Sansa and Tyrion, she has no hope of establishing any freedom. If they had any children, they would be taken to the North with Tyrion, whilst Sansa would have remained a hostage.

[a free shadow]

I am new here. Read all of the posts dutifully. It looks clear to me that the argument often gets out of hand for the reason that people sway from arguing one issue to the other. They start with one topic, one side starts losing ground and jumps to a related subject without finishing the first one. And so they circle round and round.

I am still joining the discussion. If anyone is willing to discuss things, not to declare one and ultimate truth.

My starting position is that I do not like Sansa. Very much because of what she did to Mycah and Arya. That is the first point I am making and not jumping to another one till this one is finished.

[Trinuviel]

Post by Alexia:

Excellent post, and sadly very true. Asha, Brienne and Arya are the three least hated/most popular women in this fandom, I believe, and all of them at some point have rejected femininity. And yet Brienne is unpopular for being "boring", as despite her masculine appearance and abilities, her personality is strictly feminine.

I've seen posters claim that Daenerys should not be a queen because she does not participate in battles, thus indirectly claiming that only masculine men and women can successfully rule nations. I've seen the same posters claim that she is, as you say, megalomaniac, simply because she believes in her birthright (like every man in Westeros, including fan favourite Tyrion).

Sansa is often compared to Catelyn, both of whom are despised by the fandom. And yet I think the two are almost completely different. Sansa is much more like Ned, except she was more naive than him in AGOT and she was more wary than him afterwards.

Sansa is described as shallow for not wanting to have sex with Tyrion, but I don't see anyone calling him shallow for not wanting to have sex with Penny. Daenerys is hated for taking control of her sexuality and finding a man she wants to sleep with; I've seen posters on this forum say that they want her to become Victarion's salt wife, thus destroying any independence she managed to gain by developing her own sense of sexuality.

I've noticed that many people seem to be comparing Sansa and Tyrion to Brienne and Jaime, but the situations are completely different. People don't ship Brienne/Jaime because "omg Brienne deserves a beautiful husband". They're shipped together because each of them brings out something positive in the other, and because any potential relationship between them would not be unequal. With Sansa and Tyrion, she has no hope of establishing any freedom. If they had any children, they would be taken to the North with Tyrion, whilst Sansa would have remained a hostage.

Very well said!

I love the books and find a lot of joy debating them but there are certain parts of this fandom that is just toxic.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

I like Sansa, Catelyn, Arya and other female characters and hate Cersei but I sort of like several of her chapters so I guess she is an effective villain in terms of making me hate he and elicit an emotional reaction. I am new here but I find it unlikely that readers would hate characters because they are female and have feminine traits. At least most readers.

My impression is that Sansa gives a bad taste to some due to some of her decisions early on and some readers can't forgive her those while Catelyn haters focus on her hatred of Jon, releasing Jamie and her abducting Tyrion. I think people care more about their choices/decisions of these characters and whether they think those characters are naive or not in Sansa's case rather than what type of femininity they represent.

[Woman of War]

By PatrickStormborn:

xcellent post, and sadly very true. Asha, Brienne and Arya are the three least hated/most popular women in this fandom, I believe, and all of them at some point have rejected femininity. And yet Brienne is unpopular for being "boring", as despite her masculine appearance and abilities, her personality is strictly feminine.

i would love to get a description of what includes the term "feminity" attributed to a character. We should try to agree about what we are talking before attributing certain qualities.

So what is a positive describtion of feminity vs masculity? In a traditional discourse the so called feminine traits are mostly a description of absence, of lack of male attributes. Are you beyond that and able to give an active description of what is the essence of feminity or, to invert the stereotype, the absence of masculinity, in a character?

Apply it on Sansa, Arya and Brienne, as you suggested?

[FanTasy]

I am new here. Read all of the posts dutifully. It looks clear to me that the argument often gets out of hand for the reason that people sway from arguing one issue to the other. They start with one topic, one side starts losing ground and jumps to a related subject without finishing the first one. And so they circle round and round.

I am still joining the discussion. If anyone is willing to discuss things, not to declare one and ultimate truth.

My starting position is that I do not like Sansa. Very much because of what she did to Mycah and Arya. That is the first point I am making and not jumping to another one till this one is finished.

Hi Snowy Winds, and nice avatar! I can see your point, I like Sansa, find her arc very interesting. I don't think she meant harm to come to Mycah and Arya. She took Joffrey's side, for whom she had a crush at that time. Defending her sister would cost her Joffrey.

Not nice, and one could blame her for that. But I can understand why she did it. Who doesn't make mistakes, certainly when young ETA and in love?

And Sansa 'paid' for how she acted when Ned asked her to repeat the truth. It was Lady who was killed.

[1234567]

Sansa didn't actually side with Joff. She was scared and nervous and terrified and intimidated (even Ned felt intimidated being surrounded by Lannisters). What she said was "I don't remember", which is not the same as siding with Joff, it is deciding not to get involved.

What would have happened after that is conjecture: Ned could have gently reassured her and got her to tell the assembly what she told him, or she may indeed have lied and sided with Joff entirely. We will never know, because the second she said I don't remember, Arya shouted liar, knocked Sansa to the ground and started hitting her. Which by the way was a completely over the top reaction: the knocking to the ground and hitting at least.

[a free shadow]

Hi Snowy Winds, and nice avatar! I can see your point, I like Sansa, find her arc very interesting. I don't think she meant harm to come to Mycah and Arya. She took Joffrey's side, for whom she had a crush at that time. Defending her sister would cost her Joffrey.

Not nice, and one could blame her for that. But I can understand why she did it. Who doesn't make mistakes, certainly when young ETA and in love?

And Sansa 'paid' for how she acted when Ned asked her to repeat the truth. It was Lady who was killed.

Hi :)

I do not think she could not know that Mycah was in danger. And Arya at the same time was standing in front of a trial, brought in by Lannister men and afraid. Joffrey was her accuser. Sansa lied not in Joffrey's defence, she helped him accuse falsely.

She did not defend the thruth or her family or a weaker person (Mycah). I understand that she had a crush on Joffrey. But it is the choices characters make in difficult situations that show who they are for the reader.

[FanTasy]

Hi :)

I do not think she could not know that Mycah was in danger. And Arya at the same time was standing in front of a trial, brought in by Lannister men and afraid. Joffrey was her accuser. Sansa lied not in Joffrey's defence, she helped him accuse falsely.

She did not defend the thruth or her family or a weaker person (Mycah). I understand that she had a crush on Joffrey. But it is the choices characters make in difficult situations that show who they are for the reader. As in the real life, you can always find an excuse or you can be a person.

Yes, you are right. Sansa did not choose to be neutral, in my opinion. Ned says Sansa told him Arya's version was how it happened. When Ned asked her to tell what she told him Sansa says that she doesn't remember. This was a lie, unless she had a sudden stroke of amnesia.

One can argue if she took Joff's side. She certainly didn't chose to take Arya's side, or the side of truth.

I think whatever Sansa said would have not prevented that the Hound killed Mycah. Didn't Mycah ran away immediately after the incident?

[Solaris]

Yes, you are right. Sansa did not choose to be neutral, in my opinion. Ned says Sansa told him Arya's version was how it happened. When Ned asked her to tell what she told him Sansa says that she doesn't remember. This was a lie, unless she had a sudden stroke of amnesia.

One can argue if she took Joff's side. She certainly didn't chose to take Arya's side, or the side of truth.

I think whatever Sansa said would have not prevented that the Hound killed Mycah. Didn't Mycah ran away immediately after the incident?

Mycha was dead no matter what I agree. Yes, ran for his life.

[a free shadow]

Yes, you are right. Sansa did not choose to be neutral, in my opinion. Ned says Sansa told him Arya's version was how it happened. When Ned asked her to tell what she told him Sansa says that she doesn't remember. This was a lie, unless she had a sudden stroke of amnesia.

One can argue if she took Joff's side. She certainly didn't chose to take Arya's side, or the side of truth.

I think whatever Sansa said would have not prevented that the Hound killed Mycah. Didn't Mycah ran away immediately after the incident?

Yes, Cersei would kill him, because she is Cersei. I want to kick her. But Sansa could not have had this in mind. Because it is not a law to inflict such punishments on not quilty children.

What qualities of Sansa do you think this situation brought up if not bad ones?

[FanTasy]

Yes, Cersei would kill him, because she is Cersei. I want to kick her. But Sansa could not have had this in mind. Because it is not a law to inflict such punishments on not quilty children.

What qualities of Sansa do you think this situation brought up if not bad ones?

Hard to think of good qualities here ... interestingly Sansa's character in AGOT was not the most sympathetic to me. But this was mainly because I liked Arya (which changed a bit, to be honest, I still like her as a character but don't like her killing innocent people) and found Sansa a bit snotty, With her p.o.v.'s in Kings Landing I started to like Sansa more - but we'll stick with the Mycah incident.

[a free shadow]

but we'll stick with the Mycah incident.

Yes :) Would you still say that her excuse of having a crush on Joffrey is sufficient for her character to stay intact at this point? And that there is more reason to excuse her than dislike her?

[Alexia]

Baitac,

Femininity and passivity in the face of obstacles should be lauded or seen as a good thing? Oh dear, you just set us back a few centuries. Thank goodness for all of the fierce women before us who did not remain passive when they were not allowed to vote, or own land, or marry men of a different race. That was about the most mysoginistic post I have ever seen.

I'm not going to do a full rebuttal of your post because others have already done so (thank you brashcandy for a beautiful post). I will say that condemning femininity is misogyny and your high horse about interracial relationships (which interestingly misses the point that men were not allowed to marry people of other races either) amuses me because my parents were in an interracial relationship and I have a nice little cocktail of ethnicities going on.

Your post is a fascinating representation of everything that I was talking about in fandom.

David Selig,

Congratulations - you just won the award for "most completely missing the point" in the current thread. Quite an achievement, given how many examples of that we've had so far.

Oh, she didn't miss the point. She got the point just fine and took personal offense because she believes that femininity is something that should be rightfully condemned.

[FanTasy]

Yes :) You would still say that her excuse of having a crush on Joffrey is sufficient for her character to stay intact at this point? And that there is more reason to excuse her when dislike her?

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean here (English is not my native tongue, sorry).

I'll give it a try, if I misread you, my apologies beforehand.

I said <Not nice, and one could blame her for that. But I can understand why she did it. Who doesn't make mistakes, certainly when young ETA and in love?>

Understanding why someone does a bad thing does not turn it into good. Nor does liking the one who did it.

[a free shadow]

That is me who is not good at English. But I will try to phrase it differentely.

Would you agree that there are reasons to dislike her in this situation, and that these reasons are a lot more serious than the reasons to excuse her?

[FanTasy]

That is me who is not good at English. But I will try to phrase it differentely.

Would you agree that there are reasons to dislike her in this situation, and that these reasons are a lot more serious than the reasons to excuse her?

Ah ... now I understand :drunk:

Yes, I didn't like what she did. In an ideal world you always tell the truth, support your sister, don't let your father down.

If there are 'excuses' they could be: her age, her crush on Joff and fear of losing him, feeling intimidated and cornered, thinking the best thing out of it is not being involved.

Good grief ... now I know why I never became a judge :devil:

If forced to judge with a knife on my throat: Sansa should have spoken the truth here.

And by the way, even if I found Sansa in her scenes in Winterfell 'snotty' and I did not particularly liked her then, I didn't dislike her in the scene with Ned and Arya we speak of. I disliked what she did there.

[brashcandy]

Quote fromthe last thread by BaItac:

This is not a post to be dismissed by plucking at minor details. This is a summary of the basic issues in these forums here about women of today and the fictional character Sansa. That post is highly political. Why do WOMEN feel the need to defend the character Sansa with such intensity, in politically aware times of today with women as prime ministers and CEOs ( who were not born noble but had to get there all by their own effort and NONpassivity, no matter if you like their specific political party) why so much love for a noble born princess who dreams away her future? It might be interpreted as absolutely conservative image of women if a guy rooted for the fairy tale princees why do women feel the need for it, biting away everyone who disagrees. Two centuries of feminist politics have happened, where does the delight in turning the wheel backwards come from? What nerve does a fairy tale princees touch in women of today?

Is the newly won freedom to make the important decisions about our lives too much for us? Job, kids, lovelife, all those resposibilities? Do we secretly wish ourselves back to times when we were free of responsibilty and strong arms were there to catch us when life went wrong? When girls were free to dream instead of filling tax forms and fighting with divorce papers?

Do we, in all our newly won freedom, forget that the dreamy days were in fact slavery? You get nothing for free, the price for controlling your life is dear: very long days, complicated lovelife, the threat of poverty for lack of castle........ This all is the price to pay for NONpassivity. So rooting for the character that is going along with the values of her society may seem as the easy way out if you come home after a long workday, the kids didn't do their homwork and the laundry is piling up. Oh, were I a princess with a prince to save me from reality after all I have been through! He will come, certainly, one day, if I wait patiently and do not fight my fate!

Sansa is the escapist way out of a grisly story rhat may get too much for us as reall life sometimes does. The tiny spot of withdrawal into pink dreams in an otherwise cruel world. This is as legitimate as a good talk about spring fashion with your best friend or watching Desperate Housewives. Joyful escape. But do not let yourself be tempted to see this as the part of your life that really matters. Sansa in her development is truly interesting, but only if women see her for what she is: a thirteen year old little girl in puberty. We cannot project our adult women's life on her. She is not the strong erotic heroine, the object of infatuation, even of sexual fantasies, she is a rather helpless not very active little girl! This is the coming of age story of a child, always interesting but so far,far, far away from adult women of today. And erotic identification with a barely pubescent child, for adult women whose lovelife probably has a little more in store for them? Not to mention the outright reactionary and misogynist trope of "virginity" as purity, meaning that having a sex life is somewhat insulting to women, see the Cersei debate, more about that later, have to work now.

So what are adult modern women seeking here? Debate, this is not about discussing minor story details but a highly political topic.

So many gender topics here: what is the essence of "feminity" and " masculinity"? what is the role of so called feminine approaches in our world?

Ah yes, another condescending post to somehow act as though women who defend Sansa are lacking some fulfillment in their inner lives. I'm going to my response civil and short. Martin's portrayal of Sansa is a deconstruction of the archetypal damsel in distress or princess in the tower. The reason why she is appealing to so many different types of people is because of the complexity and contradictions that Martin has imbued in her character and the circumstances impacting on her and collapsing around her. The idea that identifying with Sansa makes one ignorant of or dismissive to "women in power" is something that I find incredibly insulting. Not to mention that it completely disregards the development of Sansa's character which is precisely charting that growth to power.

But perhaps your final question exposes the fundamental error behind your reasoning: "what is the essence of "feminity" and " masculinity". Femininity and masculinity are not essences. They are gendered constructs of time and place which people invest their identities into in many similar and different, conflicting ways. Failure to recognize this leads to exactly what you're trying to do here: paint all women who defend Sansa into a corner as delighting in passivity and wanting to be rescued.