400 replies to this topic

[Cap Ou Pas Cap]

This is less for complaining (though you can definitely do that ) and more for understanding the whole structure of the books. The characters have to be moved around to come into their places, but sometimes they get there leaving holes in their motivations or thanks to a little contrieved circumstances. This is a good source of wild theories and arguments too.

The books are great and having in mind their scope, the job is done very nicely. But are there no things that bother you as contrieved, overlooked or not logical?

Edited by Cap Ou Pas Cap, 19 February 2012 - 09:57 AM.

[Dracarya]

This is more of a grumble, but when Sansa "remembers" that the Hound kissed her. I understand the impact of using the unreliable narrator, but I was not impressed with that. When was she unreliable, when it happened or when she remembered? Has she always been unreliable? How do we know what really happened? THE QUESTIONS ARE ENDLESS. Same with any other POV who's been unreliable at any one time.

That is all

[seeyouintee]

I can't think of anything that doesn't seem well thought out and believable when considering character motivation. That's one of the reasons I love this series. It's not flawless, but the gripes I have aren't as big a deal as plot holes.

[Ser Lepus]

Hey, I´m alive!

Inconsistencies I don´t like:

-Teleporting ships.
-Illyrio and Varys being so well-informed of Aegon and Dany movements despite the enormous distances, particularly Illyrio learning so fast that Dany was in Qarth, and later NOT learning that she was staying in Meereen.
-Sansa poisonous amethists...why to take the risk, when somebody else could carry the poison to the feast?.
-Doran´s stupid plan.
-How quickly the Ironborn managed to rebuild their fleet.
-The Targayren not facing a great rebellion the day after they lost their last dragon (how come they managed to stay on top having so few troops of their own?).

Edited by Ser Lepus, 19 February 2012 - 12:34 PM.

[Lady Blackfyre]

As much as I like women empowerment, the fact that the Ironborn accept women captains still strikes me as contradictory. The seem to be very gender-biased otherwise and, notably, they seem to place much importance in raping as a means to show power. Do their female captains practice rape as well? Do they allow their crew to kidnap women to keep as bedslaves? To me, it just sounds odd.

[alienarea]

- Robb sending Theon home while leaving Winterfell undefended
- Arya being trained as an assassin being nine years old
- Eddard having faced the slaughter of his guard by Jaime telling Cersei he knows about the incest
- Bran surviving the push
- Danaerys becomin Khaleesi (sp?) after Drogo's death - the dragons aren't bigger than small dogs at this point
- nobody praises Ned for killing Arthur Dayne
- Sansa being a medieval "Hello Kitty"

[brashcandy]

Fire&Blood, on 19 February 2012 - 10:50 AM, said:

This is more of a grumble, but when Sansa "remembers" that the Hound kissed her. I understand the impact of using the unreliable narrator, but I was not impressed with that. When was she unreliable, when it happened or when she remembered? Has she always been unreliable? How do we know what really happened? THE QUESTIONS ARE ENDLESS. Same with any other POV who's been unreliable at any one time.

That is all

It's fairly realistic to me considering Sansa's character. She's always been given to indulging in fantasies and likes to read about the great romances and legendary heroes of songs. It's not surprising that she would be trying to recreate something of this with the Hound based on how their last meeting went.

Edited by brashcandy, 19 February 2012 - 12:08 PM.

[Lady Kraken]

LadyBlackfyre, on 19 February 2012 - 12:00 PM, said:

As much as I like women empowerment, the fact that the Ironborn accept women captains still strikes me as contradictory. The seem to be very gender-biased otherwise and, notably, they seem to place much importance in raping as a means to show power. Do their female captains practice rape as well? Do they allow their crew to kidnap women to keep as bedslaves? To me, it just sounds odd.

Do we see any other female captains other than Asha though? Asha would certainly be an exception because she is their liege lord's daughter, so they would know better than to touch her or defy her, as they'd face Balon's wrath. I'm sure the atmosphere on Asha's ship was tremendously different than Victarion's. Plus, a captain picks his/her crew, so she's not going to pick creepy mofos like Vic and Euron do.

After Euron takes control, Asha is certainly in more danger from her crew being a woman, but while Balon was running the show I don't find it odd at all that she was a ship's captain.

[littlespider]

Fire&Blood, on 19 February 2012 - 10:50 AM, said:

This is more of a grumble, but when Sansa "remembers" that the Hound kissed her. I understand the impact of using the unreliable narrator, but I was not impressed with that. When was she unreliable, when it happened or when she remembered? Has she always been unreliable? How do we know what really happened? THE QUESTIONS ARE ENDLESS. Same with any other POV who's been unreliable at any one time.

That is all

F&B, I like to think that this mismemory (the most loud of the few that GRRM has included in Sansa's story) is basically setting readers up for a major development later in the Sansa storyline. You know what I'm talkin bout....

Sansa will in fact be revealed as a MAJOR NINJA ASSASSIN who is able to suppress memories of the assassinations she carries out and swap them for other memories instead. There's all kinds of terrible shit she's already done, but it just hasn't been revealed yet.

Just wait...

Seriously, though, I don't think Martin has many plotholes, or if they are, they're pretty subtle. Annoying, overused cliches? Yes. Way too much Varys ex machina? Yes. He's a pretty consistent writer, with good attention to logic.

Though I want to second LadyBlackfyre's point above: why, in the particular kind of patriarchal society of the Ironborn, would Asha ever, in a million, billion years, rise to power? Makes no sense to me, and contradicts some of the central gender-based structures of Ironborn society. Yet here, I am not sure it's so much Martin writing illogically, as it is him falling into the trap of writing way too many cliched "feisty chicks" (rather than fully fleshed out multi-dimensional characters).

Oh, and he also has to add moar powerful wymmyns to his roster since he's clearly heading towards a 5-6 queens type of showdown (Cersei, Marg, Dany, Sansa eventually, Asha, Arianne, Myrcella).

Edited by littlespider, 19 February 2012 - 12:22 PM.

[Biesiuss Sabaoth]

Ser Lepus, on 19 February 2012 - 11:41 AM, said:

-Illyrio and Varys being so well-informed of Aegon and Dany movements despite the enormous distances, particularly Illyrio learning so fast that Dany was in Qarth, and later NOT learning that she was staying in Meereen.
-Doran´s stupid plan.

I really think that was a stupid plan too; maybe realying in a bard and trying to convince people with heroic songs rather than gather scum from the dungeons not sound bad; sounds NAAIVE; Jon must know better his NW man are half with criminal records, and seems no one are willingly to join the guard; tue, GRRM needs a neck for Arya leveling up in Psycho aaand I think I just have filled that hole, lol.

But:

THISTHISTHIS

Quote

-The Targayren not facing a great rebellion the day after they lost their last dragon (how come they managed to stay on top having so little troops of their own?).

The whole Royal Blood=Holy Blood=Targaryen the Conqueror Blood sound to me quite shallow now, in the timeline of the story, why? Because for the time Targaryen´s fall they are weakened enough for a take over being succesfull. As in the Dunk tales 80´s years before the GOT Story beguins they have a strong house with troops and domains to support them....even reduced to "standard army" only.

But in that point yes, the plot hole are in there since they have nothing more than "blood prestige and the loyalty" of their  supporters.

And why is I think Dany gonna STAY on Essos and rebuild Valyrya maybe.

[brashcandy]

alienarea, on 19 February 2012 - 12:06 PM, said:

- Eddard having faced the slaughter of his guard by Jaime telling Cersei he knows about the incest

Yeah, even taking into consideration Ned's honour, this makes no sense.

Quote

- Bran surviving the push

Yup, a fall from that height would have killed a grown man.

Quote

- Danaerys becomin Khaleesi (sp?) after Drogo's death - the dragons aren't bigger than small dogs at this point

Not surprising. She was deserted by the other Khals and the majority of the Khalasar. Only a few old men and women remained plus those sworn to her IIRC.

Quote

- nobody praises Ned for killing Arthur Dayne

Probably because what really went down there at the Tower of Joy is shrouded in mystery and controversy. I don't imagine Ned went about bragging about it given the circumstances of Lyanna's death and whatever promise she made him swear.

Quote

- Sansa being a medieval "Hello Kitty"

Considering she's a high born maiden with gentle sensibilities, her characterisation actually fits. It's Arya as some medieval power puff girl that really bugs me.

Edited by brashcandy, 19 February 2012 - 12:27 PM.

[seeyouintee]

The fact that the Targaryens didn't immediately face a rebellion when the last dragon died isn't all that surprising. The people were complacent and they had a lot of loyalists. Hell, Illyrio blows it out of proportion but even Viserys has Targ loyalist supporters years later. It took some major fiance theft to start a full-fledged rebellion that they couldn't quell.

[Apple Martini]

I also think it's kind of illogical that the Targaryens lasted so long after their dragons died out. If they didn't have dragons, they wouldn't have conquered Westeros to begin with. As it turns out, when just half of the noble houses banded together, it was enough to boot the Targs out of power. Surprised that no one tried it after the Dance of the Dragons, or at least that it didn't occur to anyone. I can see if it had been several hundreds or thousands of years since the Conquest, but 150? That's nothing.

Edited by Apple Martini, 19 February 2012 - 12:31 PM.

[Biesiuss Sabaoth]

Also, Sansa´s self deception is a major plot hole; I was really thinking she gonna throw herself off the mountain but she stills the same little mouse, breaked down.

Allowing LF do his power games using her as a piece, not taking her distance for his molesting; let him lie the lords of the Vale, its like she arent a Stark at all, she is used and if the are plotting something all this time she dont give any signal of it in her POV´s.

She is a Closet sociopath?

Another plot hole is the lack of Rickon POV, I like to think he gonna be a hidden wildcard of GRRM, but so far all we know is he wargs a lot in his rage and he is a angry boy, more angrier than Arya maybe.

[littlespider]

brashcandy, on 19 February 2012 - 12:26 PM, said:

Yeah, even taking into consideration Ned's honour, this makes no sense.

See, I do think this is believable, if we consider it from the perspective of Ned's central problem: Ned thinks other people are like him. He thinks that Cersei will do what he tells her to to save her kids. I also don't think that, at the time that he tells her, that he expects it will end in bloodshed.

(This is Ned's thinking -- from my perspective it's unbelievably blind thinking, but consistent with Ned's character.)

Quote

Yup, a fall from the height would have killed a grown man.

I am not sure about this. This came up on the morbid medical thread a while back; it would be unlikely that he would live but not impossible.

Quote

Considering she's a high born maiden with gentle sensibilities, her characterisation actually fits. It's Arya as some medieval power puff girl that really bugs me.

Check plus. Arya's ability to not only transgress, but nuke Westerosi gender constructions are starting to push the envelope.

Sorry for the shit-tastic mixed metaphor.

[littlespider]

Biesiuss Sabaoth, on 19 February 2012 - 12:30 PM, said:

Also, Sansa´s self deception is a major plot hole; I was really thinking she gonna throw herself off the mountain but she stills the same little mouse, breaked down.

Allowing LF do his power games using her as a piece, not taking her distance for his molesting; let him lie the lords of the Vale, its like she arent a Stark at all, she is used and if the are plotting something all this time she dont give any signal of it in her POV´s.

She is a Closet sociopath?

Another plot hole is the lack of Rickon POV, I like to think he gonna be a hidden wildcard of GRRM, but so far all we know is he wargs a lot in his rage and he is a angry boy, more angrier than Arya maybe.

These aren't plot holes. These appear to be things that you don't personally like about the books or the characters. A plot hole is a blatant break in logic or lack of consistency in a storyline. It's a major structural defect in a narrative.

Sansa? Sociopath? I do not think that word means what you think it means.

[PatrickStormborn]

The Targaryens keeping power isn't very surprising, considering it took a huge catalyst for Robert et al. to usurp the throne. Despite four of the Great Houses uniting against the Targaryens, they probably would have stayed in power if Tywin had remained loyal.

In addition, it seems to suggest that the houses were somewhat content to remain under Targaryen rule.

[seeyouintee]

Bran's fall is perfectly possible too. There are true accounts of people falling out of planes and surviving after their parachutes didn't open. Fiction is a breeding ground for unlikelihood.

Now, Arya's 9-year-old Batman moves are definitely the least realistic thing mentioned here, but it's so freaking cool I just can't seem to care.

[brashcandy]

littlespider, on 19 February 2012 - 12:32 PM, said:

Check plus. Arya's ability to not only transgress, but nuke Westerosi gender constructions are starting to push the envelope.

Sorry for the shit-tastic mixed metaphor.

  Mixed, but makes sense.

[brashcandy]

PatrickStormborn, on 19 February 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:

The Targaryens keeping power isn't very surprising, considering it took a huge catalyst for Robert et al. to usurp the throne. Despite four of the Great Houses uniting against the Targaryens, they probably would have stayed in power if Tywin had remained loyal.

In addition, it seems to suggest that the houses were somewhat content to remain under Targaryen rule.

Yeah, I don't get why this is so surprising. They ruled for 300 years and people naturally accepted their dominance. Over time, even with the death of the dragons, their rule became almost natural and normal, and it would have taken a real catalyst - such as the crazy king calling for the heads of Robert and Ned, to spur on a rebellion.