400 replies to this topic

[Nev yn]

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And let's please not get into another debate on the issue. There are whole threads about it.

For what it's worth, the reason there are whole threads and the debate doesn't go away is because of posts like yours.  People remember things being in the books that aren't actually there, like scalding water and piping hot dragon eggs.

[Blue Rose Direwolf]

In the very first chapter in Game of Thrones, Dany gets into the bath even though her maid says the water is too hot. Dany thinks to herself that "it made her feel clean". Did you read the book?

It's one thing to say that you don't remember what I'm talking about but telling me that there's no scalding water in the book when there definitely is, is silly.

I don't have my copy of Game of Thrones on me (loaned it to a friend) but when I do get it back I'll find the quote on Dany and the dragon eggs on the coal fire.

[seeyouintee]

... getting into a bath that's too hot does not = immune to fire.

[The Red Wake]

seeyouintee, on 23 February 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

... getting into a bath that's too hot does not = immune to fire.

It potentially means she has a higher tolerance to heat.

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The girl pulled the rough cotton tunic over Dany's head and helped her into the tub. The water was scalding hot, but Daenerys did not flinch or cry out. She liked the heat. It made her feel clean.

[Nev yn]

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In the very first chapter in Game of Thrones, Dany gets into the bath even though her maid says the water is too hot. Dany thinks to herself that "it made her feel clean". Did you read the book?

Uh, did you?  Tip:  The first episode of the show is not analogous to the first chapter of the book.  The first chapter was the prologue, following an expedition of the Night's Watch that comes to an untimely end.  The second is a Bran POV.  Third is Catelyn.  The fourth is the first Dany point of view.  In which nobody tells her the water is too hot.  She herself describes it as "scalding hot" (how would she know if she's immune to scalding?).  Fun trivia, strictly speaking a hot tub can easily be set to be "scalding hot", which starts at around 105 degrees F.  Some people turn them up to 110 or slightly more.  Guess we're all Dragons.

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I don't have my copy of Game of Thrones on me (loaned it to a friend) but when I do get it back I'll find the quote on Dany and the dragon eggs on the coal fire.

I'll save you the trouble.   Again, you're quoting the show.

Edited by Nev yn, 23 February 2012 - 06:37 PM.

[Aeryes Stark]

Mine is how they are able to make a journey spanning all of Westeros, which in real life would take weeks or months, in up to a week. I know it is to speed up story and all, but it has just always been on my nerves

[The King in the South]

Aeryes Stark, on 23 February 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

Mine is how they are able to make a journey spanning all of Westeros, which in real life would take weeks or months, in up to a week. I know it is to speed up story and all, but it has just always been on my nerves

And then people have the nerve to criticize GRRM for actually making traveling times realistic in the later books

[KhaleesiDany]

I agree in the first book it is heavily implied that Dany has some special immunity to fire. It comes up again and again. The scalding bath is just the first time. The main instance is at the end when she gets into the fire as the eggs are being born. ALL HER HAIR WAS BURNED OFF. She could not be in such close proximity to fire and have all her hair burned off without her skin taking some damage, but unlike some other characters who have no immunity to fire (like John and Sandor) she is NOT injured from it. The girl literally jumped in a fire what more proof do you need? Do you want her to roast herself for a few hours just to be sure?

Winter taking so long in coming is not a plot hole, either. Seasons in the book last for years. Who knows how long Autumn is going to last? 2 years or 10?

That said, I am really curious about how they are going to survive the winter.

Sansa remembering the Hound kissed her bothered me, because I was sure it was a mistake since that never happened. Now I heard somewhere he put that in on purpose, makes Sansa kind of super idealistic doesn't it? To the point that her MEMORIES are altered? I won't be able to forgive this unless it comes up between them in the books again, even if GRRM has stated he did it on purpose, it is just too weird of an alteration for me to accept it being there purely to show character. I almost believe he realized the mistake after publishing and just shrugged it off with that explanation.

The biggest plot hole/inconsistency for me was when Dany was in Quarth, the slavemasters being unable to get Drogon off the platform. He's just a baby dragon! PULL HIM. Flying animals don't weigh very much.

[Dragon greyscale]

Jem, on 21 February 2012 - 06:38 PM, said:

But then how do the animals survive? Preserved/frozen meat will only last so long and living animals - both wild and domesticated - would be starving and dying as well.

Yeah, see that's the danger of this topic... Looking for logical stuff in fantasy... The prolonged seasons is a cool addition but when you think about it, it makes no sense. You could probably find a ton of inconsistencies in warging, dragons, and faceless men as well.

[seeyouintee]

The Red Wake, on 23 February 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

It potentially means she has a higher tolerance to heat.

A higher tolerance to heat is not an immunity to fire either. The quote is from Dany's POV, so "scalding" is hyperbole.

[Northern]

Dementia, on 23 February 2012 - 01:52 PM, said:

Are you certain the Tullys did not attend?  I don't recall it being mentioned that they weren't there.  Just because it they weren't mentioned, doesn't mean they weren't there.  I don't recall Catelyn ever really thinking of Lyanna, so they may never have met...indirect evidence?  I'm just not sure that there's proof either way.

I always sort of assumed Catelyn was at Harrenhall Tourney until recently, on a relisten of just the Catelyn chapters with the audio version, Catelyn says she never saw/laid eyes on Ned before her wedding day. Seems if she had been at the Tourney, she would have seen him. It was enough of an ahaa moment that I made note of the chapeter & book, but proceded to misplace the post-it


Found it~ ACOK, Catelyn chapter 45:

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And when Brandon was murdered and Father told me I must wed his brother, I did so gladly, though I never saw Ned’s face until our wedding day.

Edited by Northern, 24 February 2012 - 05:04 AM.

[The Red Wake]

seeyouintee, on 23 February 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

A higher tolerance to heat is not an immunity to fire either.

I'm aware. Just as well I never claimed anything of sort then, isn't it?

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The quote is from Dany's POV, so "scalding" is hyperbole.

Correction: it could be hyperbole.

Edited by The Red Wake, 23 February 2012 - 07:14 PM.

[the Remarkable Other]

Not exactly a plothole, but the Targaryen rules of succesion are at least weird for a family that places such high emphasis on the "blood of old Valyria". In case a king has no direct male heirs, they might end up with a guy whose great grandmother was a Targaryen on the throne, instead of a queen with full Targaryen blood.

Edited by the small other, 24 February 2012 - 10:17 AM.

[PatrickStormborn]

the small other, on 24 February 2012 - 10:03 AM, said:

Not exactly a plothole, but the Targaryen rules of succesion are at least weird for a family that places such high emphasis on the "blood of old Valyria". In case a king has no direct male heirs, they might end up with a guy whose great grandmother was a Targaryen on the throne, instead of a queen with full Targaryen blood.

It's weird, but not really a plothole. It actually makes sense following the dance of dragons, and I imagine that it's something which will end up being somewhat corrected in one of the next novels.

[Arland]

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The girl literally jumped in a fire what more proof do you need? Do you want her to roast herself for a few hours just to be sure?

Actually shouldn't she have died of suffocation with no regard to any fire immunity, she might have?

[Independent George]

I'm not sure if this qualifies, but there are two things that never quite clicked for me:

1. When Littlefinger claims that it's Tyrion's dagger, why does Varys silently accede to this? Why does Littlefinger trust Varys not to dispute it? Even though they both want to throw the kingdom into chaos to make their moves, I can't believe for a minute that they would trust each other enough to collude. Heck, the second either one realizes that the other has the same short-term goal, they should be immediately suspicious.

2. Why does Olenna depend on Sansa wearing the amethysts to smuggle poison into the wedding party? You'd think she would want to keep her circle as small as possible; the only other person who needs to know the plot is Margaery (so that she doesn't drink the poisoned wine). Instead, it's the drunk and unreliable fool Dontos who ensures Sansa wears the poisoned amethysts. Did she use Dontos(!) to give to Sansa? Did she collude with Littlefinger(!!), who spoke nothing but praise for Joffrey? Poisoning Joffrey makes perfect sense. Littlefinger manipulating her from the shadows makes perfect sense. Olenna creating a plot with that many moving parts makes no sense.

[The Red Wake]

KhaleesiDany, on 23 February 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

I agree in the first book it is heavily implied that Dany has some special immunity to fire. It comes up again and again. The scalding bath is just the first time. The main instance is at the end when she gets into the fire as the eggs are being born. ALL HER HAIR WAS BURNED OFF. She could not be in such close proximity to fire and have all her hair burned off without her skin taking some damage, but unlike some other characters who have no immunity to fire (like John and Sandor) she is NOT injured from it. The girl literally jumped in a fire what more proof do you need? Do you want her to roast herself for a few hours just to be sure?

After being asked about his GRRM stated it was a one time event, that she'd most likely not be able to do it again. He even went as far as to say the Targaryens aren't immune to fire. More resistant to heat is a possibility however.

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Sansa remembering the Hound kissed her bothered me, because I was sure it was a mistake since that never happened. Now I heard somewhere he put that in on purpose, makes Sansa kind of super idealistic doesn't it? To the point that her MEMORIES are altered? I won't be able to forgive this unless it comes up between them in the books again, even if GRRM has stated he did it on purpose, it is just too weird of an alteration for me to accept it being there purely to show character. I almost believe he realized the mistake after publishing and just shrugged it off with that explanation.

Yes, it was deliberate. I can't remember the exact reasoning for it but it has something to do with displaying Sansa's idealistic and naive outlook on everything.

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The biggest plot hole/inconsistency for me was when Dany was in Quarth, the slavemasters being unable to get Drogon off the platform. He's just a baby dragon! PULL HIM. Flying animals don't weigh very much.

A single slave master fails to pull a dragon the size a large dog off of a platform. Light he may be, but the scales, massive wing-muscles and heavy iron rich bones mean a Dragon isn't a bird. He also wasn't exactly trying very hard, and Drogon was particularly unwilling to move. This guy only had a couple of seconds to try before Dany hit him across the face with a whip.

[Apple Martini]

KhaleesiDany, on 23 February 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

I agree in the first book it is heavily implied that Dany has some special immunity to fire. It comes up again and again. The scalding bath is just the first time. The main instance is at the end when she gets into the fire as the eggs are being born. ALL HER HAIR WAS BURNED OFF. She could not be in such close proximity to fire and have all her hair burned off without her skin taking some damage, but unlike some other characters who have no immunity to fire (like John and Sandor) she is NOT injured from it. The girl literally jumped in a fire what more proof do you need? Do you want her to roast herself for a few hours just to be sure?

I'm freaking sick of arguing over this, but Martin has said that the funeral pyre thing was a one-time instance and should not be construed to mean that Dany or any other Targ is immune to fire.

Now she's more than welcome to walk into another fire. But it won't have the same effect as it did the first time.

[Fire_Kiss]

Has the cook fire melting the gold medalions been mentioned? I know gold has a low melting point, but c'mon!

The fact that Cersie doesnt flat out deny that her kids are Jamie's to Ned.

That Ned doesn't let Lady go free-instead he kills his daughter's pet.

That Robert didn't Rayne down some pane upon those who stood with the Targaryens, though he KNEW there were still Targaryen heirs roaming around the world.

The fact that the dead are coming back to life, mad an attempt on the life of the Lord Commander, and Jeor decides it's a GOOD idea to take the majority of his host North! And he doesn't leave anyone to do the research that Sam later takes up...

Those things bother me.

And as far as long winters go, food can be preserved with very primitive methods (canning, drying, root cellars) for years. The fact that we aren't eating 15 year old corn in America is astoundingly myopic in my mind. (but I'm one of the "crazies" who actually preserves food just in case the world ends)

Edited for spelling

Edited by Fire_Kiss, 24 February 2012 - 01:22 PM.

[Arland]

Fire_Kiss, on 24 February 2012 - 01:21 PM, said:

And as far as long winters go, food can be preserved with very primitive methods (canning, drying, root cellars) for years. The fact that we aren't eating 15 year old corn in America is astoundingly myopic in my mind. (but I'm one of the "crazies" who actually preserves food just in case the world ends)

Ye... but what all those bears do in these long winters? do they get extra big? Or extra hairy???

Edited by Arland, 24 February 2012 - 01:34 PM.