400 replies to this topic

[Biesiuss Sabaoth]

littlespider, on 19 February 2012 - 12:34 PM, said:

These aren't plot holes. These appear to be things that you don't personally like about the books or the characters. A plot hole is a blatant break in logic or lack of consistency in a storyline. It's a major structural defect in a narrative.

Sansa? Sociopath? I do not think that word means what you think it means.

Well, a lack on Rickon POV are one, to me.

I read Sansa chapters in pain, I reckon that, maybe her lack of direwolf and mutilated warg skills limit her; but putting her education as a court maiden and young lady dont justify her behavior,

Ok wrong thread to discuss that.

[David Selig]

Mance sending Jon with the Magnar's raiding party even after he lied to him about Watch being at the Fist. It makes no sense to send him if there's a good reason to suspect he's still a man of the Watch at heart and could betray the wildlings given that the success of the mission totally depended on it being a surprise for the Watch.It was a really unnecessary risk. The Magnar's party couldn't use his info on the Watch either because of the same doubt that Jon might be lying.

[The Swaggering Bravo]

8,000 Unsullied, the best infantry in the world, make a huge impact for Dany's campaign in Slaver's Bay during ASOS, yet they may as well not exist by the time of ADWD. Why didn't she attack the Yunkai'i? Why didn't a single commander take into account how the Unsullied could goddamn destroy any force sent against them if fought infantry vs infantry? Is the fact that they are deployed for a very ineffective city watch (Since they fight best rank on rank and not single fighting in the dark.) an actual plot hole or is it just a result from Dany's incompetence? The Yunkai'i couldn't have amassed that many soldiers at first though, and even taking her incompetence into account, she still has Barristan and other commanders to advise her.

EDIT: I have gotten many replies to this one, however none of them address this properly: My problem with this (Or how this is even a plothole in general.) Isn't that Dany didn't use the Unsullied for this or for that, but how they are not even a factor mentioned in ADWD....at all. 8,000 of the best infantry in the world could not go under everyone's radar, even if they could not (Arguably) take on the forces amassed by Yunkai.

Edited by Rand Sand, 20 February 2012 - 03:42 PM.

[littlespider]

Biesiuss Sabaoth, on 19 February 2012 - 12:43 PM, said:

Well, a lack on Rickon POV are one, to me.

I'm on a different page. I think the omission of this POV is very deliberate, in the same way that the lack of a Robb POV was.

Rickons's fate remains completely shrouded in mystery, even as the audience is aware that he's hanging out in Skagos, a locked and loaded Chekhov's gun.

[PatrickStormborn]

Rand Sand, on 19 February 2012 - 12:49 PM, said:

8,000 Unsullied, the best infantry in the world, make a huge impact for Dany's campaign in Slaver's Bay during ASOS, yet they may as well not exist by the time of ADWD. Why didn't she attack the Yunkai'i? Why didn't a single commander take into account how the Unsullied could goddamn destroy any force sent against them if fought infantry vs infantry? Is the fact that they are deployed for a very ineffective city watch (Since they fight best rank on rank and not single fighting in the dark.) an actual plot hole or is it just a result from Dany's incompetence? The Yunkai'i couldn't have amassed that many soldiers at first though, and even taking her incompetence into account, she still has Barristan and other commanders to advise her.

The point is that Dany didn't want to fight -- or basically GRRM needed her to stay in Meereen.

[Buckwheat]

LadyBlackfyre, on 19 February 2012 - 12:00 PM, said:

As much as I like women empowerment, the fact that the Ironborn accept women captains still strikes me as contradictory. The seem to be very gender-biased otherwise and, notably, they seem to place much importance in raping as a means to show power. Do their female captains practice rape as well? Do they allow their crew to kidnap women to keep as bedslaves? To me, it just sounds odd.

It was only Asha, right? As LadyKraken already said, she was the lord's daughter and apparently had some special rights. I would not believe if there were more such female captains in the Ironborn society, though.

Another illogical thing: Jon getting Lonwclaw instead of its staying at Bear Island and passing to Maege's daughters. It is cool that Jon got it, sure, but kind of illogical seeing how most noble houses keep their valyrian blades and take care of them staying in the family.

[Buckwheat]

Stupid double post.

Edited by Buckwheat, 19 February 2012 - 01:07 PM.

[Apple Martini]

Rand Sand, on 19 February 2012 - 12:49 PM, said:

8,000 Unsullied, the best infantry in the world, make a huge impact for Dany's campaign in Slaver's Bay during ASOS, yet they may as well not exist by the time of ADWD. Why didn't she attack the Yunkai'i? Why didn't a single commander take into account how the Unsullied could goddamn destroy any force sent against them if fought infantry vs infantry? Is the fact that they are deployed for a very ineffective city watch (Since they fight best rank on rank and not single fighting in the dark.) an actual plot hole or is it just a result from Dany's incompetence? The Yunkai'i couldn't have amassed that many soldiers at first though, and even taking her incompetence into account, she still has Barristan and other commanders to advise her.

Yeah, this is a good point. Maybe not a plot hole but I'd call it a definite weakness in the myth of the Unsullied. For as awesome as they're supposed to be, they're piss-poor at meeting a guerilla attack.

[Buckwheat]

Ok, triple post.

Edited by Buckwheat, 19 February 2012 - 01:08 PM.

[The Swaggering Bravo]

Also, I read somewhere that George went down the road of cliche fantasy moments when Robb separated from his infantry to attack Jaime's army. They said that a cavalry force would get a head start and would cover good ground at first, but that after a day or two the position's would be switched, since horses aren't very enduring and Tywin set an unrelenting pace for his army.

[Guynemer]

One thing that has bothered me is Littlefinger's motivation for lying about the dagger.

I can get his motivation for every other thing he does: masterminding Arryn's death, participating in the assassination of Joffrey, betraying Ned, etc.  All of these things either preserves or advances his status and power.

But attributing the dagger to Tyrion, instead of Robert?  I have a hard time seeing how the lie serves him better than the truth in this instance.  He obviously knows that Robert wouldn't have tried to kill Bran, so it is not like he's worried he'd lose his status here; plus, he makes a dangerous enemy in the Imp.

[PatrickStormborn]

Guynemer, on 19 February 2012 - 01:07 PM, said:

But attributing the dagger to Tyrion, instead of Robert?  I have a hard time seeing how the lie serves him better than the truth in this instance.  He obviously knows that Robert wouldn't have tried to kill Bran, so it is not like he's worried he'd lose his status here; plus, he makes a dangerous enemy in the Imp.

Not really. Tyrion was hardly a threat to Littlefinger whilst he was in King's Landing. In fact, that itself is quite a plothole. Why would Tyrion not have Littlefinger arrested and question him about the dagger, when he was happy to arrest Pycelle for reporting to Cersei?

[Biesiuss Sabaoth]

littlespider, on 19 February 2012 - 12:50 PM, said:

Rickons's fate remains completely shrouded in mystery, even as the audience is aware that he's hanging out in Skagos, a locked and loaded Chekhov's gun.

I was to say that xD

Other plot hole or maybe I misread: how is Theon take over Winterfell with 30 pirates?.

Ok, for the descriptions GRRM portrays it like a castle with a small town; with very old towers surrounding it and good walls.

I just cant belive they take all the guards and fighters leaving the Castle alone with kids and old people knowing there are outlaws.

The attack of Ramsey  makes more sense, he comes  back with more warriors and he knows the terrain, but the initial taking over is not logic IF House Stark of Winterfell are that big has they say.
Even with most of the army in campaign; Ser Rodrik must know more than that.

[seeyouintee]

Offhand, Tyrion is much more believable than Robert. You gonna believe "your best friend killed your son" or "the evil, cursed, LANNISTER dwarf killed your son?"

[Buckwheat]

Guynemer, on 19 February 2012 - 01:07 PM, said:

One thing that has bothered me is Littlefinger's motivation for lying about the dagger.

I can get his motivation for every other thing he does: masterminding Arryn's death, participating in the assassination of Joffrey, betraying Ned, etc.  All of these things either preserves or advances his status and power.

But attributing the dagger to Tyrion, instead of Robert?  I have a hard time seeing how the lie serves him better than the truth in this instance.  He obviously knows that Robert wouldn't have tried to kill Bran, so it is not like he's worried he'd lose his status here; plus, he makes a dangerous enemy in the Imp.

Er, he deliberately wanted to cause hot blood between the Starks and the Lannisters, so he incriminated a Lannister to a Stark. He did that because he wanted a higher position for himself in the coming war.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Guynemer, on 19 February 2012 - 01:07 PM, said:

One thing that has bothered me is Littlefinger's motivation for lying about the dagger.

I can get his motivation for every other thing he does: masterminding Arryn's death, participating in the assassination of Joffrey, betraying Ned, etc.  All of these things either preserves or advances his status and power.

But attributing the dagger to Tyrion, instead of Robert?  I have a hard time seeing how the lie serves him better than the truth in this instance.  He obviously knows that Robert wouldn't have tried to kill Bran, so it is not like he's worried he'd lose his status here; plus, he makes a dangerous enemy in the Imp.

I think the idea behind is that Tyrion is the most believable Lannister it can be pinned on. Because he is a dwarf people in Westeros are ready to believe the worst about him. Jaime is not known as the type of guy who would send someone else to do his killing, but even if he were it's less likely that LF can pass of a story about Jaime betting on the the outcome of the joust that he was a part of. I don't think people would buy that Cersei was placing a bet on a joust either. I was more bothered by the fact that Tyrion didn't do a whole lot to get to the bottom of Littlefinger blaming him for the dagger once he got to King's Landing.

Edit:
Oops, other people beat me to it.

Edited by OnionAhaiReborn, 19 February 2012 - 01:14 PM.

[Morte]

Rand Sand, on 19 February 2012 - 12:49 PM, said:

8,000 Unsullied, the best infantry in the world, make a huge impact for Dany's campaign in Slaver's Bay during ASOS, yet they may as well not exist by the time of ADWD. Why didn't she attack the Yunkai'i? Why didn't a single commander take into account how the Unsullied could goddamn destroy any force sent against them if fought infantry vs infantry? Is the fact that they are deployed for a very ineffective city watch (Since they fight best rank on rank and not single fighting in the dark.) an actual plot hole or is it just a result from Dany's incompetence? The Yunkai'i couldn't have amassed that many soldiers at first though, and even taking her incompetence into account, she still has Barristan and other commanders to advise her.

We could expand the rant to the whole Meereenes knot: Characters being struck in a location, suddenly losing all their abilities portrayed in the earlier books, not being able to solve even the smallest problem just because they have to wait for other to arrive.

Martin! Just let them arrive faster, goddammit!

[Guynemer]

seeyouintee, on 19 February 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

Offhand, Tyrion is much more believable than Robert. You gonna believe "your best friend killed your son" or "the evil, cursed, LANNISTER dwarf killed your son?"

Neither LF nor Ned would ever believe Robert had something to do with it, that's my point.  But still, reporting that the dagger belonged the Robert would lead to the conclusion that the culprit was someone close to the King, ie, the Lannisters.

LF is smart enough to know that Tyrion is the most dangerous Lannister (outside of Tywin); implicating him personally, instead of someone unknown entity close to the King in general, does not benefit him.  The Starks will still suspect the Lannisters, things will still come to blood.

[King_Roose_I]

Not really a plothole or inconsistency, but an utterly unbareable plot point: Danys "gambit" to "win" the Unsullied. At that point, I instantly lost any respect for Martin as a "plot architect", which is okay, but I also lost any interest in Dany (as a character) that I still had, sad to say. I still cannot figure out wether that was supposed to be a joke or citation or what ...

Edited by King_Roose_I, 19 February 2012 - 01:48 PM.

[Fire_Kiss]

Guynemer, on 19 February 2012 - 01:29 PM, said:

LF is smart enough to know that Tyrion is the most dangerous Lannister (outside of Tywin); implicating him personally, instead of someone unknown entity close to the King in general, does not benefit him.  The Starks will still suspect the Lannisters, things will still come to blood.

(bolding for my own emphasis)

Not really. Tyrion wouldn't have spent too much time in KL or at court scheeming, as he was largely at Casterly Rock before AGOT begins. AIUI, Tyrion makes his way North when all his family does, but I don't really see that he was at KIng's Landing all that much beforehand.