400 replies to this topic

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Regarding Arya's plotline:  If you think of Faceless Manliness as a martial art, like ninjitsu, then it's not so surprising that a young person would be practicing the art because it takes years to learn that stuff.  There were also kunoichi, female ninjas, who, I imagine, had to start training as early as the boys.  Also, in Westeros, age is no bar when it comes to combat: didn't Barristan enter the lists at age 10?  Wasn't Sandor 12 when he first killed a man?  Didn't Podrick Payne join the charge at the Battle of the Blackwater, and take on an sword swinging member of the Kingsguard at age 11?  Or is Arya's story a problem just because she's a girl?  

I think that Catelyn's story has a few whopping wtf moments, although I don't know whether they can be called plotholes.  There's Catelyn's unconditional trust of Littlefinger, her kidnap of Tyrion (whaaaa??? He's heading back to Kingslanding, leave him to the King's justice), and her release of Jaime (whaaa, whaaaaat??  He was their insurance policy).

[The King in the South]

Sand Snake No. 9, on 19 February 2012 - 02:47 PM, said:

Regarding Arya's plotline:  If you think of Faceless Manliness as a martial art, like ninjitsu, then it's not so surprising that a young person would be practicing the art because it takes years to learn that stuff.  There were also kunoichi, female ninjas, who, I imagine, had to start training as early as the boys.  Also, in Westeros, age is no bar when it comes to combat: didn't Barristan enter the lists at age 10?  Wasn't Sandor 12 when he first killed a man?  Didn't Podrick Payne join the charge at the Battle of the Blackwater, and take on an sword swinging member of the Kingsguard at age 11?  Or is Arya's story a problem just because she's a girl?  

I think that Catelyn's story has a few whopping wtf moments, although I don't know whether they can be called plotholes.  There's Catelyn's unconditional trust of Littlefinger, her kidnap of Tyrion (whaaaa??? He's heading back to Kingslanding, leave him to the King's justice), and her release of Jaime (whaaa, whaaaaat??  He was their insurance policy).

Well personally I thought all of those things were pretty ridiculous too.

[Talleyrand]

Rand Sand, on 19 February 2012 - 12:49 PM, said:

8,000 Unsullied, the best infantry in the world, make a huge impact for Dany's campaign in Slaver's Bay during ASOS, yet they may as well not exist by the time of ADWD. Why didn't she attack the Yunkai'i? Why didn't a single commander take into account how the Unsullied could goddamn destroy any force sent against them if fought infantry vs infantry? Is the fact that they are deployed for a very ineffective city watch (Since they fight best rank on rank and not single fighting in the dark.) an actual plot hole or is it just a result from Dany's incompetence? The Yunkai'i couldn't have amassed that many soldiers at first though, and even taking her incompetence into account, she still has Barristan and other commanders to advise her.

I agree completely with you but it could be that she was afraid of losing the city to the Son's of the Harpy if her only trained and loyal troops left the city.

King_Roose_I, on 19 February 2012 - 01:48 PM, said:

Not really a plothole or inconsistency, but an utterly unbareable plot point: Danys "gambit" to "win" the Unsullied. At that point, I instantly lost any respect for Martin as a "plot architect", which is okay, but I also lost any interest in Dany (as a character) that I still had, sad to say. I still cannot figure out wether that was supposed to be a joke or citation or what ...

What do you see wrong with the situation? The Unsullied are taught to have their complete loyalty with whomever holds their contract. Dany makes clear that she owns them now then turns on the Slavers, who at best have a few sellswords and nobles to protect them.

[Lady Blackfyre]

Lady Kraken, on 19 February 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

Do we see any other female captains other than Asha though?

Well, there's this passage from ACoK (Theon, 24):

“Is it that way, then?” she said, eyeing him boldly. There were women on the iron Islands-not many, but a few-who crewed the longships along with their men, and it was said that salt and sea changed them, gave them a man’s appetites.

Fair enough it says there are women crewing the ships, not captaining them - I guess I extrapolated. But, either way, I still find the isolated case of Asha somewhat contractitory, even considering she had Balon's full support.

Now, please note that I have nothing against Asha, quite the opposite! I actually buy her as a captain because... well, because she's to cool to dismiss. But, even so, I cannot help but feel that her story is pushing it a little bit...

Edited by LadyBlackfyre, 19 February 2012 - 03:00 PM.

[The King in the South]

Lothbrok, on 19 February 2012 - 02:56 PM, said:

I agree completely with you but it could be that she was afraid of losing the city to the Son's of the Harpy if her only trained and loyal troops left the city.

What do you see wrong with the situation? The Unsullied are taught to have their complete loyalty with whomever holds their contract. Dany makes clear that she owns them now then turns on the Slavers, who at best have a few sellswords and nobles to protect them.

I think his point is that the stupidity of the Slave Owners in that situation is completely unrealistic and the fact that no one has ever tried anything like it since the inception of the insullied is equally face-palmable.
We get it, Dany needed to get an army cheap and quick, but it's still a ridiculous plot hole.

[str8 outta Old Town]

3 pages in, still no genuine plotholes.

Let me be the first: The only genuine plothole I've seen is the ecology of the Iron Islands. They seem to have a climate similar to Ireland or even the Hebrides, yet they seemingly support a population density high enough to be a constant factor in the politics of a continent about 500 times their area.

Are they shipping all their food in in exchange for iron? Do they have the only iron deposits in Westeros? In a pre-industrial society, a place like that would suffer periodic famines and attendant social collapse (see Iceland). And if there are so many of them, where are they getting all their wood from? That's not a daft question, you'd have to assume the whole archipelligo was deforested long ago and is now totally settled. The place should be an economic basket case, populated by not very many fishermen.

[str8 outta Old Town]

The King in the South, on 19 February 2012 - 03:06 PM, said:

I think his point is that the stupidity of the Slave Owners in that situation is completely unrealistic and the fact that no one has ever tried anything like it since the inception of the insullied is equally face-palmable.
We get it, Dany needed to get an army cheap and quick, but it's still a ridiculous plot hole.

She bought a whole army, which was unusual, and it was delivered in the city, which suspect is unusual. Also, the society of the region finds the idea of turning laves against masters as ridiculous, they may simply have not considered it possible that anyone would corrupt the pure pursuit of capitalism in such an offensive way. It goes under the heading "Dum is not a plothole" (along with Catelyn trusting LF)

[The King in the South]

str8 outta Old Town, on 19 February 2012 - 03:14 PM, said:

She bought a whole army, which was unusual, and it was delivered in the city, which suspect is unusual. Also, the society of the region finds the idea of turning laves against masters as ridiculous, they may simply have not considered it possible that anyone would corrupt the pure pursuit of capitalism in such an offensive way. It goes under the heading "Dum is not a plothole" (along with Catelyn trusting LF)

LF was Catelyn's best friend for the majority of her childhood, so I'm inclined to give her a little sympathy.. The Slave Owners were willing to turn over 90%+ of their armed forces in the middle of their city to a woman they had just met (and they knew said woman had just spent the last year of her life living in a violent/barbaric society. Even idiots should know that is not a smart move.

[seeyouintee]

str8 outta Old Town, on 19 February 2012 - 03:08 PM, said:

3 pages in, still no genuine plotholes.

Let me be the first: The only genuine plothole I've seen is the ecology of the Iron Islands. They seem to have a climate similar to Ireland or even the Hebrides, yet they seemingly support a population density high enough to be a constant factor in the politics of a continent about 500 times their area.

Are they shipping all their food in in exchange for iron? Do they have the only iron deposits in Westeros? In a pre-industrial society, a place like that would suffer periodic famines and attendant social collapse (see Iceland). And if there are so many of them, where are they getting all their wood from? That's not a daft question, you'd have to assume the whole archipelligo was deforested long ago and is now totally settled. The place should be an economic basket case, populated by not very many fishermen.

Even that isn't a PLOThole, but I think it's pretty much been decided that this thread should henceforth be called "Things you found unrealistic or just flat out didn't like."

[Grand Duke De Nobcheese]

Me.......I'm a plothole.......

[King_Roose_I]

Lothbrok, on 19 February 2012 - 02:56 PM, said:

What do you see wrong with the situation? The Unsullied are taught to have their complete loyalty with whomever holds their contract. Dany makes clear that she owns them now then turns on the Slavers, who at best have a few sellswords and nobles to protect them.

Yeah, well, I understand the concept. What I don't understand is: How can any weapon dealer fall for the oldest trick in the book: being robbed with its own weapons? That was cool when I first met that trope, when I was 9. Somehow it doesn't give me the same kick of awesomeness anymore after the hundredth time.

@Sand Snake No.9

About Catelyn, yeah, well, this really sucks. Catelyn was such a finely written character, but her arc so full of holes it drives me insane.

Edited by King_Roose_I, 19 February 2012 - 03:38 PM.

[clover]

Robert being enamored with Lyanna most of his life still has me scratch my head, considering his attention span regarding his family, his other women, and his other children.

But then again, there might be more to the story, and then I think of the reverence he had for so many years for Ned and John Arryn, and maybe it is believeable that he could sustain feelings for people that long.

Still on the fence with the inner workings of Robert.

[str8 outta Old Town]

seeyouintee, on 19 February 2012 - 03:30 PM, said:

Even that isn't a PLOThole, but I think it's pretty much been decided that this thread should henceforth be called "Things you found unrealistic or just flat out didn't like."

Dunno, I think in fantasy, the world IS the plot, at least in part.

[Winter's Lady]

Hmmm...

Plot inconsistency...Val's eyecolor changed from grey to blue! (what? At least it IS an inconsistency )

Don't you think it's a good thing that noone managed to come up with a really convincing plot hole so far? Compliment to the writer, I'd say.

[str8 outta Old Town]

Lady of Oldcastle, on 19 February 2012 - 03:53 PM, said:

Hmmm...

Plot inconsistency...Val's eyecolor changed from grey to blue! (what? At least it IS an inconsistency )

Don't you think it's a good thing that noone managed to come up with a really convincing plot hole so far? Compliment to the writer, I'd say.

I don't know, I think that 3000 vikings emerging from a shed in book two counts as a plot hole.

[Cap Ou Pas Cap]

To throw in a few:

I think it is contrieved that Arya did not ask Jaqen to kill Tywin (Gregor/Joffrey/Cersei).

That Viserys and Daenerys were allowed to live so long (by Robert).

That Mance behaved so carelessly with Jon.

That Shae was in Tywin's bed and exactly when Tyrion came.

Edited by Cap Ou Pas Cap, 19 February 2012 - 04:08 PM.

[Wood_of_the_Morning]

What bothers me most, frankly, is Valyria.  Here you apparently have a great empire and civilization - but what did they rule exactly?  Who paid fealty to them?  They had dragons, so presumably they could have easily conquered the world several times over with relative ease.

However, we know that the 7 Kingdoms, the Dothraki, Braavos, slaver's bay, the far east - on and on and on each have long unbroken histories, with barely a mention of fealty to Valyria.   Why did the remnants of Valyria take so long to arrive and conquer Westeros?  Why was it not conquered when Valyria was at the height of its power?

The 'Doom' is a fine ambiguous device for explaining how the empire crumbled, but I don't think you can introduce them as an Atlantis-like presence - so close, so real, and so palpable (as to be the source of the Targs, the source of dragons, the source of special blades, etc. etc., but then leave all traces of them otherwise absent.

[str8 outta Old Town]

Cap Ou Pas Cap, on 19 February 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

To throw in a few:

I think it is contrieved that Arya did not ask Jaqen to kill Tywin (Gregor/Joffrey/Cersei).

That Viserys and Daenerys were allowed to live so long (by Robert).

That Mance behaved so carelessly with Jon.

That Shae was in Tywin's bed and exactly when Tyrion came.

It is contrived, but all fiction is contrived. You could look at history and find tonnes of similarly contrived seeming occurences.

[Winter's Lady]

Cap Ou Pas Cap, on 19 February 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

To throw in a few:

I think it is contrieved that Arya did not ask Jaqen to kill Tywin (Gregor/Joffrey/Cersei).

That Viserys and Daenerys were allowed to live so long (by Robert).

Agreed!

Quote

That Mance behaved so carelessly with Jon.

I think I can see where you're coming from, to some degree, but I personally was happy with the explanations given

Quote

That Shae was in Tywin's bed and exactly when Tyrion came.

That she was there at the exactly right time - yes, that's plot convenience. That Shae would be in his bed - no. He's a grown male, it's unrealistic to assume he would stay abstinent after his wife's death forever imo, and Shae...well, it was her job and her former "employer" was out of commission . That'S the short version of it.

[seeyouintee]

Eh... There's a language, metal, people/decendents, dragons, and a smoldering island, that isn't enough "traces?" Hell, there could even be more 'traces' on the smoldering island, but people are too afraid to go and check it out.

To be fair, I kind of wondered how dragons can burn up and where they all went if only the humans there burned up.