44 replies to this topic

[protar]

This has been a question that's been bothering me for some time now and though I don't have any crackpots lined up for you I just thought I'd ask your opinions.

So, why did Illyrio send Strong Belwas as one of Dany's guardians?

The reason he sent Barristan is obvious: He's one of the best knights in Westeros, a targ loyalist, and adds prestige to her cause. Belwas on the other hand is seemingly just some random pit fighter. He's skilled in combat, but not particularly amazing, he's a bit of a brute, and in DWD it's shown how poor guardians pitfighters make when Hizdahr asigns them as his guards.

So why send him to defend the person you're trying to make Queen? Was he really the best person they could find aside from Barristan? Why does Illyrio trust Belwas when he's from a proffesion hardly renowned for their trustworthiness, or for that matter prowess in actual combat situations? I was thinking perhaps it's just a hint that Dany is merely plan B and that Aegon is the real plan (whether he's real or not.). But then why send Barristan to her either? It's not like she would have missed him.

[David Selig]

Not particularly amazing? He's the biggest badass in the books. He's not a "random pit fighter", he had been dominant there for many years, even though he intentionally allowed every opponent to cut his belly and leave a mark there during the fight.

Edited by David Selig, 20 February 2012 - 11:30 AM.

[Lykos]

Well the thoery is that Varys and Illyrio are supportig Young Griff "Aegon", and they lost the last spy Jorah Mormont for he became loyal to Dany, so I think they were send to replace him.  I´m wondering about Ser Barristan Selmy´s role for quite a while now, but haven´t come to a conclusion yet.

[The Duke]

Strong Belwas is seemingly one of the best one on one fighters in the world.  He toyed with Mereen's champion, before quickly en  ding him.  He also looks to be exceedingly loyal to this point.  Why wouldn't you want him on your side?  I'd get as many BAMF's as possible.

As for Illyrio, he seems to know how to divide his assets.  Barristan sought out Dany, whom he knows and accepts as a Targ.  Just telling him Aegon's alive will likely not convince him.  On the flip side, Jon Connington was Rheagar's loyal friend and more apt to believe that Young Griff is the real Aegon.  Both Connington and Selmy are huge assets, and Illyrio has more than one plan to work his way into power in Westeros.  If Dany gets cooked by a dragon or Aegon gets spanked by the Lannister's, all is not lost.

[Maester Hodor]

"Fighting girls is not so brave. Fighting Strong Belwas would be brave."

[protar]

I'm not really disputing that he's not a good fighter, but pitfighting is different to fighting in formation or guarding a monarch, a point stated quite clearly in ADWD. The only time we've seen Belwas fight is against the Meereenese champion and the situation was all rather showy. Not unlike what Belwas would have faced before. I'm just wondering why Illyrio seems to trust Belwas so much, and why he was chosen as one of Dany's protectors over other people that are probably more suited to the job of actually guarding someone.

[JBC91]

Maester Hodor, on 20 February 2012 - 11:40 AM, said:

"Fighting girls is not so brave. Fighting Strong Belwas would be brave."

My personal favourites

"Strong Belwas needs no tinkly bells." "Strong Belwas needs liver and onions."

"Liver and onions makes you strong"

David Selig, on 20 February 2012 - 11:27 AM, said:

Not particularly amazing? He's the biggest badass in the books. He's not a "random pit fighter", he had been dominant there for many years, even though he intentionally allowed every opponent to cut his belly and leave a mark there during the fight.

Yes, indeed, one of the biggest badass. I always laugh with his quotes, it's quite refreshing, a little humour in the book

[Mr. E]

I think the transition would be easier than you think. It just be going from "kill anyone attacking you" (pitfighter) to "kill anyone attacking her" (bodyguard).

[protar]

Mr. E, on 20 February 2012 - 12:18 PM, said:

I think the transition would be easier than you think. It just be going from "kill anyone attacking you" (pitfighter) to "kill anyone attacking her" (bodyguard).

Actually it'd be quite different, as the Barristan chapters explain in some detail. In the pits your enemy is announced, most of the moves are really flashy and for show and after you've won you can rest easy. As a guard you have to constantly be on the alert and not just of physical attacks but of poison as well. And most of the time you'd just be spent standing there, which the pitfighters don't have the patience for.

Belwas sure is awesome but I don't see he stands out too much from all the other awesome people out there. The most awesome thing he's done is surviving those locusts which is more luck and his obesity than skill. I'm just wondering what made Illyrio choose him over targ loyalists in Westeros or exiled knights or whatever. And why is Belwas so loyal for no reason?

[The Duke]

From pit fighter to body guard would have some issues translating, but that's why teaming Strong Belwas with Barristan the Bold, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard is a great pairing.  You put Strong Belwas out in front to give people with any malice towards Dany some serious doubt about trying anything, and leave subtleties to Selmy.  Barristan the Badass can then just as easily yell out "Strong Belwas, kill those men".  Few people not in the know would realize that Barristan is the more dangerous of the two.  I can't wait until Daario betray's Dany and tries to go through "Ser Grandfather".

[scurvy]

Belwas, being a eunuch does not create a mixed motive in Dany's eyes.  So he is someone who can be placed with her without risk of changing his motiviations.  Someone that she can trust.  Jorah and all of the sell swords commanders and other intact males seem to want her as a wife/conquest.  Belwas doesn't.  That's a good thing from several respects.

He could be a spy, but I think Barristan would figure that out.  He could have just been a way to get Barristan close to Dany without drawing too much attention to the old squire.  Sometimes you need a beard to add to your disguise.  Belwas provided that.

Edited by scurvy, 20 February 2012 - 02:09 PM.

[protar]

scurvy, on 20 February 2012 - 02:08 PM, said:

Belwas, being a eunuch does not create a mixed motive in Dany's eyes.  So he is someone who can be placed with her without risk of changing his motiviations.  Someone that she can trust.  Jorah and all of the sell swords commanders and other intact males seem to want her as a wife/conquest.  Belwas doesn't.  That's a good thing from several respects.

He could be a spy, but I think Barristan would figure that out.  He could have just been a way to get Barristan close to Dany without drawing too much attention to the old squire.  Sometimes you need a beard to add to your disguise.  Belwas provided that.

Why does being a eunuch make him trustworthy? Have you perchance heard of Varys?

I'm not saying that Belwas is a spy, I'd just like a bit of background on how Illyrio found him, why he's trusted etc.

[The Duke]

We think Dany can trust Strong Belwas, but really we don't know for sure seeing as we don't get to see his motivatioons.  As a reader, I trust him because I think Illyrio isn't just trying to keep her away, but is playing the odds on one of his plans taking power in Westeros, potentially merging the two if at all compatible.

Watch his full name really be Strong Belwas Varys, ha!

[Talleyrand]

The only time Belwas will betray Dany and attempt to kill her is if someone convinces him she's a pinata filled with liver and onions

[Mumatil]

Whenever I think of Strong Belwas, he reminds me of one of those cartoonish stereotypes of an arab gaurd or something in Aladdin.

[The Duke]

This series will not be complete if we don't get a Strong Belwas/Areo Hotah fight at some point.

[Lykos]

Now I reached some kind of conclusion.  I think Illyrio regards "Aegon" as his son (wether this is true or not is another topic), that is why he was supporting him with the help of Varys. It´s also the reason why "Aegon" was introduced to us so late in the series, for GRRM wanted to keep Varys´true motivation a secret and let the Daenerys characterarc develop unchallenged.  Illyrios´aim, in aiding Viserys, was to prepare Westeros for Aegon´s takeover.  Viserys was to attack with the dothraki screamers and fail to ultimately take Westeros, because, as Jorah Mormont points out, the Dothraki are supperior to knights in open field battle but don´t know how to besiege holdfasts.  For the offchance that Viserys and the Dothraki succeed in taking Westeros, he gave Daenerys the dragon eggs, hoping Viserys would kill himself in the attempt to hatch them.  That is why he urged Viserys to stay in Penthos, because he was afraid he could sell the eggs to hire a sellsword company for example and he send Jorah Mormont with them to report to Varys.
When Dany hatched the eggs Illyrio changed plans.  He now hoped that Dany would take "Aegon" as true an legitimise, probably even marry, him.
As The Duke pointed out in post#4, Illyrio couldn´t be shure that Barristan Selmy would accept "Aegon" as true, so he send Strong Belwas along as insurance.  With order to kill Selmy when he raised doubts or Dany when she was unwilling to accept Aegon.

Edited by Lykos, 20 February 2012 - 02:53 PM.

[The Swaggering Bravo]

He could always be Dany's food tester, since he ate an entire bowl of poisoned insects without dying. And yes, he's a badass, I love how after he defeated Meereen's champion he shat in the direction of the city.

[Maester Hodor]

The Duke, on 20 February 2012 - 02:27 PM, said:

This series will not be complete if we don't get a Strong Belwas/Areo Hotah fight at some point.

That would be an awesome fight! It would probably end in both of them killing each other at the same time like Errik and Arryk or whatever their names were

[Mr. E]

protar, on 20 February 2012 - 01:13 PM, said:

Actually it'd be quite different, as the Barristan chapters explain in some detail. In the pits your enemy is announced, most of the moves are really flashy and for show and after you've won you can rest easy. As a guard you have to constantly be on the alert and not just of physical attacks but of poison as well. And most of the time you'd just be spent standing there, which the pitfighters don't have the patience for.

Belwas sure is awesome but I don't see he stands out too much from all the other awesome people out there. The most awesome thing he's done is surviving those locusts which is more luck and his obesity than skill. I'm just wondering what made Illyrio choose him over targ loyalists in Westeros or exiled knights or whatever. And why is Belwas so loyal for no reason?

Sigh...it's become glaringly apparent from reading this board that I need to relisten to all the books before I make a comment lol.

But now that you mention the loyalty thing, perhaps part of the reason Belwas was sent was because he would be instinctively loyal, or at least follow orders to be. Ideally you'd have a trained bodyguard who is loyal, a la Barristan. But since those are hard to come by, I would say a great fighter who is loyal would be the next best thing.