96 replies to this topic

[Apple Martini]

While arguing a point in another thread, I realized that GRRM has an interesting habit, within the story, of spreading lies in a straightforward matter, while leaving the truth somewhat ambiguous and/or having characters (and readers) discover the truth for themselves/ourselves. My purpose with this thread is to "crowdsource" some of these examples and try to determine if my hypothesis can be supported.

Take Jon's parentage. Saying that Wylla is his mother would fall into the "outright lie," category, while his "real" parentage is conveyed through dropped hints here and there.

Truths (Or Presumed Truths) That Are Never Spoken Outright, Or Are Discovered Organically
Lyanna and Rhaegar are Jon's parents.
Jaqen killed Pate and assumed his identity.
Roose Bolton killed Robb Stark.
Ned discovering Cersei's children's parentage (we learn it eventually but no one straight-up tells Ned)
Sandor Clegane is alive.
Manderly cooked the three Freys in the pie.
The Green Grace is the Harpy or is an ally of the Harpy.
Rickon Stark is on Skagos.
Euron Greyjoy hired a Faceless Man to murder his brother.
Robert Strong is Gregor Clegane.
Sarella Sand is Alleras the acolyte.
The black cat in the Red Keep is Balerion.
Renly and Loras ... crossed swords.
Ser Shadrich has unwittingly(?) found Sansa.
Arya overheard Varys and Illyrio in the dungeon in the Red Keep.
Bloodraven is the Three-Eyed Crow.

The lies are a little trickier because it's harder to prove a negative, but hopefully you can get the idea. I'm including things in this that are still up in the air but that have drawn a lot of skepticism.

Lies (Or Presumed Lies) That Are Spoken Outright
Manderly executed Davos.
Wylla, Ashara and/or a fisherman's daughter in the Sisters are all Jon's mother.
Ramsay Bolton has killed Stannis.
Stannis is Azor Ahai.
Lora Tyrell is dying on Dragonstone.
Skagos is ground zero for hardcore cannibalism.
Marillion murdered Lysa Tully.
Ned's after the throne.
The Others and the Children of the Forest are all extinct.
Baelish made for the Vale before the Purple Wedding.

See where I'm going with this? I'm not talking about crackpot theories; I'm talking about factual events or 95%+ truths where the truth can be determined but is never said explicitly, and things that are said explicitly but which either didn't turn out to be true or around which a high level of skepticism exists.

Please contribute others if you can think of them, in either category.

Edited by Apple Martini, 22 February 2012 - 12:05 PM.

[PatrickStormborn]

I don't understand the point of this thread. All theories have to be confirmed at some point, apart from the ones that have no real relevance to the plot. Sandor Clegane, if he's relevant to the plot, will be revealed to be alive. If the Green Grace is the Harpy, it will be confirmed in the text. If Rickon is on Skagos, we'll find out when Davos travels there. All theories are given what I call "speculation time" by Martin. But they all have to be revealed eventually.

Take YG being an Aegon pretender. The evidence was all presented, and then Tyrion revealed it. If he's a fake Targaryen, then that will be revealed too as soon as it becomes necessary.

I guess you're probably trying to prove that Aemon declaring Dany as TPWWP means she must be false. But I don't think that's true. ALL theories have to be confirmed at some point, and not all of them need to be left until the last book. If Dany had been told she was the prince who was promised as soon as she hatched the dragons, I'd believe she was fake because that is in line with Martin's current method of revelations (which is why I believe Stannis isn't AAR, and why I believe YG is not TPWWP -- because as soon as we found out about those prophecies we were told that they fulfilled them). However, the reader had two books to piece the puzzle together regarding Daenerys. That's more than long enough, unless you want everything to be revealed in the last chapter of the last book.

Edited by PatrickStormborn, 20 February 2012 - 05:42 PM.

[jarl the climber]

Balons death at the hands of the Faceless Men. Falls in the the truth column
Marrilion killed Lysa Arynn. Nobody has accused LF of that.
That Gregor is Ser Robert Strong and reanimated through necromancy, most people consider this to be true but Qyburn could be a total fraud.

[Apple Martini]

But their manner of "reveal" matters. No one walked up to Ned and said, "Joffrey was born of incest." Ned had to piece it together and discover it on his own. Martin didn't say, "Roose Bolton stabbed Robb Stark." He still hasn't outright said that.

If you don't want to contribute anything, don't. As you might imagine, it's no skin off my nose.

[PatrickStormborn]

Apple Martini, on 20 February 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

But their manner of "reveal" matters. No one walked up to Ned and said, "Joffrey was born of incest." Ned had to piece it together and discover it on his own. Martin didn't say, "Roose Bolton stabbed Robb Stark." He still hasn't outright said that.

If you don't want to contribute anything, don't. As you might imagine, it's no skin off my nose.

But everything gets confirmed at some point... It was clear to many that Reek (ACOK) was Ramsay, and then he outright told Theon. Aemon outright told Jon that he was a Targaryen. Roose stabbing Robb will come back and will eventually be outright revealed.

If something is relevant to the plot, it will be revealed. Jon's parentage will eventually be revealed, too. If Bloodraven tells Bran that Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents at the beginning of the next book, will you decide that it's false?

[Apple Martini]

I think Jon will discover his parentage on his own.

Like I said, if you don't want to participate or you think it's stupid, go read something else.

[Ice Turtle]

I like the thread I would add Sarella/Alleras, Tyrion killing the Nurse, Arya the killing insurance man, Tyrells poisoning Joffrey and Joffrey trying to kill Bran.

Edited by lazy turtle, 20 February 2012 - 06:00 PM.

[Dragon greyscale]

PatrickStormborn, on 20 February 2012 - 05:42 PM, said:

IAll theories have to be confirmed at some point, apart from the ones that have no real relevance to the plot. Sandor Clegane, if he's relevant to the plot, will be revealed to be alive.

I think you hit the nail on the head here. The trouble is we don't know how the plot will develop. I would personally enjoy it more if almost no theories are relevant to the plot. I just like the ambiguity of grrm's style. Closure is overrated sometimes. Off the top of my head, the only theory I would like to see elaborated is salleras/alleras. Just because I feel that events at oldtown are going to have a bigger impact on the plot. R+L=J, faegon, sandor, Euron hiring FM, frey pies, prophecies... I don't feel like i want grrm to make those explicit. There's enough going on plotwise to let these theories remain ambiguous.
Sidenote: i actually have never bought into faegon anyway... I consider it crackpot so probably not belonging in this thread. It's the little hints and nods that we're talking about right?

[Rapsie]

Ned Stark declared he was trying to steal the throne.
The truth was he thought Stannis was the rightful heir, because of the twincest. Stannis tells Cat and the realm about this, but it seems like a lie, when in fact it's the truth.

[Lady Blackfyre]

Mance Rayder claiming he had the Horn of Winter.

[Doran II]

I don't know, Martin has his way of acting, that seems to me like littlefinger's, trying to keep the readers as most confuesed and unsafe about the truth as possible, and sometimes tell the true straight to your face and make it seem like a lie or vice-versa.

I think one that we should keep attention is the one that the Elder Brother told Brienne about the Black iron dragon that washed up on the isle, red with rust

Edited by Doran II, 21 February 2012 - 05:55 AM.

[A Shadow]

I think a lot of authors do that. Piecing together the true is a journey a character (like Jon, Gendry and more) makes. And readers just tag along without knowing anything beforehand. But that is true that you have to be much sharper with George Martin than reading a regular book. Or you might never know about some lesser things.

I chip in with another R+L, Renly and Loras.

[Solaris]

jarl the climber, on 20 February 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

Balons death at the hands of the Faceless Men. Falls in the the truth column
Marrilion killed Lysa Arynn. Nobody has accused LF of that.
That Gregor is Ser Robert Strong and reanimated through necromancy, most people consider this to be true but Qyburn could be a total fraud.

I don't understand?
LF did kill the Lady Arynn that is the truth
Marilion being found guilty of murder and confessing is the lie....

[Buckwheat]

Does the identity of the two lords who were Ramsay's guests in the first Theon's chapter in ADWD fall into the "implied" category? (I think one of them was Mors Umber, not sure about the other one).

[Winter's Knight]

Quote

Balon Greyjoy hired a Faceless Man to murder his brother.

Huh?

[Solaris]

Winterbreath, on 21 February 2012 - 06:53 AM, said:

Huh?

I am with Winterbreath on this one, clearly we weren't paying close enough attention

[Doran II]

Yeah Apple Martini need to correct that, i believe she meant, Euron Greyjoy hired a FM to kill his brother, Balon
wich is based on the prophecy by the woodswitch "a man without a face, crow at his shoulder with seaweeds, etc, etc..."

[Apple Martini]

Doran II, on 21 February 2012 - 09:42 AM, said:

Yeah Apple Martini need to correct that, i believe she meant, Euron Greyjoy hired a FM to kill his brother, Balon
wich is based on the prophecy by the woodswitch "a man without a face, crow at his shoulder with seaweeds, etc, etc..."

Fixed. I was typing too fast.

Solaris, on 21 February 2012 - 06:55 AM, said:

I am with Winterbreath on this one, clearly we weren't paying close enough attention

The idea is that a lot of factual developments -- however small -- are left ambiguous or for the reader to figure out. The Frey pies being an example, or Roose personally killing Robb. Whereas a lot of lies -- like Wylla is Jon's mother -- are spoken outright. I just want to see how many of these we can curate. Some of the truths -- again, like the Frey pie, Euron's FM hire or even the Harpy -- may never be confirmed, just left hanging with clues.

[Solaris]

Apple Martini, on 21 February 2012 - 09:57 AM, said:

The idea is that a lot of factual developments -- however small -- are left ambiguous or for the reader to figure out. The Frey pies being an example, or Roose personally killing Robb. Whereas a lot of lies -- like Wylla is Jon's mother -- are spoken outright. I just want to see how many of these we can curate. Some of the truths -- again, like the Frey pie, Euron's FM hire or even the Harpy -- may never be confirmed, just left hanging with clues.

No I understand your aim I mean the whole Balon sending FM to kill his brother bit.....

[Apple Martini]

Solaris, on 21 February 2012 - 10:00 AM, said:

No I understand your aim I mean the whole Balon sending FM to kill his brother bit.....

Oh sorry. Yeah I fat-fingered it, my mistake.

I think fake!Aegon will be another truth that never really comes out, but we can deduce it thematically (the black dragon that washed back ashore red) and with other clues.