64 replies to this topic

[turdle]

The Shadow Fox, on 06 April 2012 - 10:45 PM, said:

Is it? The Hound just wanted to live to see the death of Gregor, and hoped it would be by his own hand. We also do not know just how bad his wound was. Arya is no good judge, and Sandor was probably dazed from his wound and couldn't think clearly. There is enough to make sure we can have hope without certainty. That is why there is no answer yet. Both sides are equally supportable.

sure, they're both possible. it's entirely possible the hound is alive, but in my opinion, that would be a shame.  the point is not whether or not sandor could have survived, it's that we have been specifically led to believe that he is dead. i had hoped that the hound had survived all the way up until we were specifically told he was dead.  but if this gets turned back around and he's still somehow alive, to me, that would be like spitting in the face of sandor clegane.  sandor himself would piss on that "twist."

[Fabrice Robin]

Gryz, on 21 February 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:

Spoiler

Do we know that for sure ?
or is it just the general assumption amongst readers ?
I would assume that the Hound has a very recognizable face.
And that anyone in the 7 kingdoms that has ever met him, would recognize him immediately.
When the gravedigger is described, there is no mention of any burnscars or marks or anything.
I hope Sandor is still alive. But I'm not so sure.

Spoiler

No he is just dead, he died ill and painfully, there is no chance he shows up again in the next books, anyway, each time the author has no more use of a character, he just kill him, there is no redemption for anyone in this story

[Ser Dermett Corbray]

Oh wow, never even crossed my mind about the whole Quiet Isle theory. There's some very smart readers amongst us. That would be a nice, subtle finish to the Hound's story that would go with the character I reckon.

Spoiler

A life of penance with holy men. Very fitting for a man who feels he has no place in the world. I can see the Elder Septon giving a whole "I was once like you, come live with us" etc speech and somehow swaying the Hound.

...however, I think he has some unfinished business and he still lives. Who's to say that the man under the Hound's helm found by the Elder Septon was actually the Hound? My first guess what that the Hound had thrown his helmet (and his old life) away, half expecting him to turn up in another story somewhere down the line (the Wall maybe?). Although the above mentioned theory does seem much more plausible.

[7V3N]

turdle, on 07 April 2012 - 08:59 AM, said:

sure, they're both possible. it's entirely possible the hound is alive, but in my opinion, that would be a shame.  the point is not whether or not sandor could have survived, it's that we have been specifically led to believe that he is dead. i had hoped that the hound had survived all the way up until we were specifically told he was dead.  but if this gets turned back around and he's still somehow alive, to me, that would be like spitting in the face of sandor clegane.  sandor himself would piss on that "twist."

I get the events mixed up and do not know what is in Dance and what is in Feast, so it all goes in spoiler

Spoiler

Were we? After Arya left him, we continually heard stories of the Hound joining the Brotherhood. Then we are told that he died but was able to give the Elder Septon (or whoever) enough info about himself before his wounds took him? It seems likely that the septon would have had time to heal Sandor if he was able to get a shit ton of info out of him. More likely, I think, is that the Hound becomes a man of the Faith and begins a transformation into a man that can find inner peace.

Having said that, I am ohsohopeful that he gets to duee UnGregor and kill his brother once and for all pending resurrection

I know this debate is pointless, but I have to keep making these points to keep myself convinced that he is still alive.

Edited by The Shadow Fox, 08 April 2012 - 06:49 PM.

[Fabrice Robin]

Lord Ashford, on 07 April 2012 - 06:02 PM, said:

Oh wow, never even crossed my mind about the whole Quiet Isle theory. There's some very smart readers amongst us. That would be a nice, subtle finish to the Hound's story that would go with the character I reckon.

Spoiler

A life of penance with holy men. Very fitting for a man who feels he has no place in the world. I can see the Elder Septon giving a whole "I was once like you, come live with us" etc speech and somehow swaying the Hound.

...however, I think he has some unfinished business and he still lives. Who's to say that the man under the Hound's helm found by the Elder Septon was actually the Hound? My first guess what that the Hound had thrown his helmet (and his old life) away, half expecting him to turn up in another story somewhere down the line (the Wall maybe?). Although the above mentioned theory does seem much more plausible.

Spoiler

So why would have those monks say that they have seen him die? I guessed pretty quickly that the Hound was not the one who did all the butchery in the city, I don't see why they would have lied about his death since Arya left him dying alone

[7V3N]

Fabrice Robin, on 09 April 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

Spoiler

So why would have those monks say that they have seen him die? I guessed pretty quickly that the Hound was not the one who did all the butchery in the city, I don't see why they would have lied about his death since Arya left him dying alone

Arya left seeing him wounded, doomed to die. He was not necessarily at death's door. The septon says the Hound died. He refers to the Hound and Sandor as different people. The Hound is what Gregor created. A brutal, hateful man with no hope for good in the world. Sandor is the boy Gregor destroyed. One who looked up to knights and chivalry. All young boys looks up to knights and since their father was a knight himself (IIRC), I doubt Sandor originally had the views that knighthood is a disgusting hypocrisy.

[Lyanna Stark]

You guys should go back and check page one of this thread, here. It's a nice post explaining the particulars of the Quite Isle.

[Ser Dermett Corbray]

Gah I'm just annoyed that all these little hints keep slipping past me. First R+L=J, now this

[KhaleesiDany]

I didn't read all the adwd spoilers in this thread, because I am not there yet. (Isn't this the AFFC forum? >_>)

turdle at first I thought, you are being too harsh, but in a way I think you are right. I think even if Sandor is alive he will not really be the same character. He is not the Hound anymore and his ambition to kill gregor cannot be fulfilled since Oberyn killed Gregor. My vote is yea if he is going to be awesome as usual but no if he is going to be lame.

It's too bad because that part at the end of a chapter ASOS where he told Arya "I have a brother, too" gave me chills. I thought for sure that was a hint of things to come but these books always go in surprising directions so we shall see.

[Lyanna Stark]

KhaleesiDany, on 11 April 2012 - 02:02 AM, said:

I didn't read all the adwd spoilers in this thread, because I am not there yet. (Isn't this the AFFC forum? >_>)

Spoilers linked are for complete AFFC, not ADWD. Some people post here without having got to the end of AFFC, I guess.

[Roboginger]

Nay - Dead,

Although I would like to be proven wrong, there is a lot of compelling arguments here, you guys must take notes or something when reading.

[Insane DanniJay]

The Elder brother knows to much just like others said, and I'm starting to believe he might be alive but his persona of being The Hound seems like it is truly dead. Thank you all for clearing this up; I was a bit worried that every single character had no hope but this changes things a little.

[DarkSnow]

Nice spot. i missed this as i read AFFC but now i've read the quotes and referred to the book, it could be true GRRM is like that and this isnt really a Resurrection as he never died. he was just injuried.
Thanks for the incite.

Edited by DarkSnow, 13 April 2012 - 07:20 PM.

[Josephxoxo]

I don't think I saw one post about what Brienne saids in the fifth book about the Hound.

[turdle]

The Shadow Fox, on 09 April 2012 - 11:53 AM, said:

The septon says the Hound died. He refers to the Hound and Sandor as different people. The Hound is what Gregor created. A brutal, hateful man with no hope for good in the world. Sandor is the boy Gregor destroyed. One who looked up to knights and chivalry. All young boys looks up to knights and since their father was a knight himself (IIRC), I doubt Sandor originally had the views that knighthood is a disgusting hypocrisy.

ok, i'm confused. why would anyone want that? do you like the hound as a character or not?  because i like the hound, and i like his attitude about knights and the harsh reality of the world. are you saying that it would be a character improvement for him to, for example, drop his disdain for knights?  don't we have ample examples within the books to see that the hounds views are correct? and despite (or perhaps, because of) his "negative" attitude, he's often more moral than the majority of the other characters.

the hound is one of the few characters who is willing to call a spade a spade.  now you want GRRM to tell us dead isn't dead, and through sandor of all characters? no thanks, i like my hound brutal and honest.

Edited by turdle, 14 April 2012 - 04:14 PM.

[adreamer]

turdle, on 14 April 2012 - 04:12 PM, said:

ok, i'm confused. why would anyone want that? do you like the hound as a character or not? because i like the hound, and i like his attitude about knights and the harsh reality of the world. are you saying that it would be a character improvement for him to, for example, drop his disdain for knights? don't we have ample examples within the books to see that the hounds views are correct? and despite (or perhaps, because of) his "negative" attitude, he's often more moral than the majority of the other characters. the hound is one of the few characters who is willing to call a spade a spade. now you want GRRM to tell us dead isn't dead, and through sandor of all characters? no thanks, i like my hound brutal and honest.

But you know gelding Stranger, hasn't change much it seems......... The only thing that changes is Sandor's allegiance.

[7V3N]

turdle, on 14 April 2012 - 04:12 PM, said:

ok, i'm confused. why would anyone want that? do you like the hound as a character or not? because i like the hound, and i like his attitude about knights and the harsh reality of the world. are you saying that it would be a character improvement for him to, for example, drop his disdain for knights? don't we have ample examples within the books to see that the hounds views are correct? and despite (or perhaps, because of) his "negative" attitude, he's often more moral than the majority of the other characters. the hound is one of the few characters who is willing to call a spade a spade. now you want GRRM to tell us dead isn't dead, and through sandor of all characters? no thanks, i like my hound brutal and honest.

You misunderstand me. I am just saying how, I believe, Gregor's actions changed Sandor and why he is how he is. The Hound is one side, Sandor the other. There are different sides to his personality, each mainly centered around pessimism and optimism. The Hound being pessimistic in his view of the world and the good of men. Sandor being optimistic, the person he was before Gregor changed him, who saw the world like Sansa did. There is not enough evidence for me to say this is how it went for sure, but that is how I believe it.

I like the Hound too, but I pity the Hound. I like Sandor, the one who shows compassion for Sansa and risked his life in the mob to save her.

I think his "resurrection" would be a way to join the sides. He sees the world as it is, but knows that there is good and that one good man can make a difference. This is part of why I see a natural connection between him and Sansa.

Sorry if I didn't clarify very well. Let me know any more questions you have and I will do my best to be clear.

Edited by The Shadow Fox, 15 April 2012 - 07:42 PM.

[Lyanna Stark]

turdle, on 14 April 2012 - 04:12 PM, said:

ok, i'm confused. why would anyone want that? do you like the hound as a character or not?  because i like the hound, and i like his attitude about knights and the harsh reality of the world. are you saying that it would be a character improvement for him to, for example, drop his disdain for knights?  don't we have ample examples within the books to see that the hounds views are correct? and despite (or perhaps, because of) his "negative" attitude, he's often more moral than the majority of the other characters.

the hound is one of the few characters who is willing to call a spade a spade.  now you want GRRM to tell us dead isn't dead, and through sandor of all characters? no thanks, i like my hound brutal and honest.

You've missed all the other characters who seemed "dead" but actually weren't?

No, Sandor Clegane isn't dead. We were nearly beaten over the head with it in the Brienne chapter on the Quiet Isle. Besides, Arya thinks he is dying, but that is her POV and she is not omniscent. So we don't see him dying, and we see the Elder Brother basically tell Brienne straight out that Sandor Clegane is alive, plus we actually see him too through Brienne's eyes. She just doesn't realise who it is she is seeing.

I mean, compare it to the worst kept secret of ASOIAF, that Jon Snow is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar. Nowhere is it explicitly stated that he is, but the clues all add up. In the case of Sandor, we even get to see him and his horse! So he's hidden in plain sight, if you will. And he's not lying about it either, since he's not speaking.

As for "dying", the Elder Brother says this about himself:

"All in all, I was a sad man. When I was not fighting, I was drunk. My life was writ in red, in blood and wine"
"When did it change?" asked Brienne.
"When I died in the Battle of the Trident"

But as we know, the Elder Brother isn't dead. He died in a metaphorical sense and was reborn. And then he says to Brienne:

"I see." Brienne did not know why he was telling her all of this, or what else she out to say.
"Do you?" He leaned forward, his big hands on his knees. "If so, give up on this quest of yours, the Hound is dead..."

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 16 April 2012 - 07:08 AM.

[Sylvan Fox]

Lyanna Stark, on 16 April 2012 - 07:00 AM, said:

"All in all, I was a sad man. When I was not fighting, I was drunk. My life was writ in red, in blood and wine" "When did it change?" asked Brienne. "When I died in the Battle of the Trident" But as we know, the Elder Brother isn't dead. He died in a metaphorical sense and was reborn. And then he says to Brienne: "I see." Brienne did not know why he was telling her all of this, or what else she out to say. "Do you?" He leaned forward, his big hands on his knees. "If so, give up on this quest of yours, the Hound is dead..."

Yeah, I had the impression he was trying to tell her the guy was still alive in some sense. He could have just been like "Oh, he's dead" but instead he tells Brienne all kinds of crazy stuff.

[turdle]

The Shadow Fox, on 15 April 2012 - 07:40 PM, said:

You misunderstand me. I am just saying how, I believe, Gregor's actions changed Sandor and why he is how he is. The Hound is one side, Sandor the other. There are different sides to his personality, each mainly centered around pessimism and optimism. The Hound being pessimistic in his view of the world and the good of men. Sandor being optimistic, the person he was before Gregor changed him, who saw the world like Sansa did. There is not enough evidence for me to say this is how it went for sure, but that is how I believe it.

I like the Hound too, but I pity the Hound. I like Sandor, the one who shows compassion for Sansa and risked his life in the mob to save her.

I think his "resurrection" would be a way to join the sides. He sees the world as it is, but knows that there is good and that one good man can make a difference. This is part of why I see a natural connection between him and Sansa.

Sorry if I didn't clarify very well. Let me know any more questions you have and I will do my best to be clear.

i guess this is a matter of interpretation about the hound. i think you are trying to make a distinction that does not exist. sandor is not anakin skywalker.  i do not see sandor as being in a conflict between good and evil, he's a man who was given a very harsh lesson about reality when he was a boy by his brother. and in my opinion it is that lesson that has given him BOTH the anger and the ability to sympathize and protect those who can't protect themselves.  like tyrion being a dwarf, sandor's disfigurement is what gives him the ability to pity cripples, bastards and broken things, or in sandors case, a stupid little bird.