32 replies to this topic

[The Bastard of Bolton]

Major Daenerys end of book 1 spoilers.
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Was Mirri really the culprit of Drogo and Rhaego's deaths?
If Drogo had followed instructions he would still be alive, if Daeny had not entered the tent would Rhaego not have died?

[Loose seal]

Mirri definitely "killed" Drogo, or more like she really didn't even try to save him.

What exactly happened to Rhaego though ? It's almost impossible to tell, given what little we know.
The way Mirri describes the baby makes it sound as though Dany gave birth to an actual dragon.

Dany entering the tent might have caused the baby's death but there are many other possibilities :
-the baby had been dead for a long time, because of some genetic disorder
-Dany's frequent proximity to the dragon eggs turned the baby into a monster (considering Mirri's description of the baby, this would make some sort of sense)
-Mirri effectively "traded" the baby's life for Drogo's (that would also make sense but it doesn't explain the baby's appearance)
-the baby was going to be a monstrosity, regardless of the eggs and/or Mirri's spells but Mirri, or Jorah, did in fact kill him to end his suffering
-the baby was perfectly normal but Mirri killed it
-the baby was perfectly normal but Jorah killed it
And that's all I can come up with right now. We don't know enough to make anything other than a slightly educated guess.

The only two people who witnessed Dany giving birth were Mirri and Jorah. Mirri had no reason to tell Dany the truth, so her words about what happened should be taken with a few grains of salt and Jorah's reaction is cryptic at best.

[KhaleesiDany]

I don't have answers but what I think is: Mirri killed Drogo, to get revenge on the Khalasar for sacking her town. She was being intentionally misleading about the horse paying for Drogo's life when she really wanted to kill Rhaego. I don't think Rhaego would have died if Dany hadn't went in the tent. I think her vision of her son is what he would have looked like, and I don't think Mirri Maz Durr was being honest about how he looked.

Can anyone confirm if Dany ever saw the baby?

I also think Jorah is partially to blame for Rhaego's death, though not intentionally.

For me this was a very difficult scene to read, but it had to happen because Drogo, Rhaego and Mirri Maz Durr's are the lives that paid for Drogon, Rhaeger and Viserys.

[Loose seal]

KhaleesiDany, on 21 February 2012 - 10:07 PM, said:

Can anyone confirm if Dany ever saw the baby?

Dany never saw the baby, if I recall correctly.

Clash of kings spoilers :
She does, however

Spoiler

have a vision of a warrior most people assume is a grown up war-lord Rhaego, in the house of the Undying... but it was just that, a vision

[Xtopher]

Yep, Dany never saw her baby.

@ KhaleesiDany
What do you mean by "

Drogo, Rhaego and Mirri Maz Durr's are the lives that paid for Drogon, Rhaeger and Viserys. "

at first i thought you meant the 3 dragons but those names are troubling. You mean Rhaegar the baby Robert killed?? i hope not.

[TheTarrasque]

What I found very disturbing about the description of Rhaego was the extreme similarities to a rare birth disease called "Harlequin Icthyosis". I don't know if that is what GRRM intended but the chapter instantly reminded me of a very graphic youtube video which I will not post here.

Spoiler

Even though Ser Jorrah confessed to betraying Danny to Varys I don't think he would have lied about Rhaegos stillbirth and condidtion. Because that would mean that Mirri And Jorrah conspired to tell the same lie. Remember, Mormont did not trust Mirri.

[Loose seal]

TheTarrasque, on 22 February 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:

What I found very disturbing about the description of Rhaego was the extreme similarities to a rare birth disease called "Harlequin Icthyosis". I don't know if that is what GRRM intended but the chapter instantly reminded me of a very graphic youtube video which I will not post here.  

I saw babies with ichtyosis at some anatomny museaum once... and yeah that's pretty much what I pictured Rhaego like. Mirri did say he had bat wings and a tail though, didn't she ? But yeah...can't trust Mirri on that one

Spoiler

and indeed, Jorah as well had reasons not to tell Dany the truth

[The Bastard of Bolton]

Oh, I just thought that maybe if Drogo had kept the original itchy dressings on and not drunk as Mirri had instructed then his wound would not have festered.

[KhaleesiDany]

Xtopher, on 22 February 2012 - 12:20 PM, said:

Yep, Dany never saw her baby.

@ KhaleesiDany
What do you mean by "

Drogo, Rhaego and Mirri Maz Durr's are the lives that paid for Drogon, Rhaeger and Viserys. "

at first i thought you meant the 3 dragons but those names are troubling. You mean Rhaegar the baby Robert killed?? i hope not.

Yeah, I meant the three dragons. Sorry if I didn't get their names right.

[Drowsey Dragon]

The Lost Direwolf, on 21 February 2012 - 07:11 PM, said:

Mirri definitely "killed" Drogo, or more like she really didn't even try to save him.

What exactly happened to Rhaego though ? It's almost impossible to tell, given what little we know.
The way Mirri describes the baby makes it sound as though Dany gave birth to an actual dragon.

Dany entering the tent might have caused the baby's death but there are many other possibilities :
-the baby had been dead for a long time, because of some genetic disorder
-Dany's frequent proximity to the dragon eggs turned the baby into a monster (considering Mirri's description of the baby, this would make some sort of sense)
-Mirri effectively "traded" the baby's life for Drogo's (that would also make sense but it doesn't explain the baby's appearance)
-the baby was going to be a monstrosity, regardless of the eggs and/or Mirri's spells but Mirri, or Jorah, did in fact kill him to end his suffering
-the baby was perfectly normal but Mirri killed it
-the baby was perfectly normal but Jorah killed it
And that's all I can come up with right now. We don't know enough to make anything other than a slightly educated guess.

The only two people who witnessed Dany giving birth were Mirri and Jorah. Mirri had no reason to tell Dany the truth, so her words about what happened should be taken with a few grains of salt and Jorah's reaction is cryptic at best.

My impression was the baby would have been normal and grown to be this legendary conquerer if Dany was not carried into the tent during the blood magic ritual.Maz made it clear not to enter the tent. Since she gave birth during the ritual inside the tent, it turned her baby into an abomination.

[Loose seal]

Drowsey Dragon, on 23 February 2012 - 09:47 AM, said:

My impression was the baby would have been normal and grown to be this legendary conquerer if Dany was not carried into the tent during the blood magic ritual.Maz made it clear not to enter the tent. Since she gave birth during the ritual inside the tent, it turned her baby into an abomination.

Could be. Could also be that the Dosh Khaleen are just crazy old crones. I'm leaning towards the latter really, as if they had any kind of foresight they would've seen the baby coming out deformed, instead of him becoming the Stallion who mounts the world.
We don't know for sure if Mirri's blood magic was what caused the baby's deformity and death but it's heavily implied yeah.

[Mr. E]

The Bastard of Bolton, on 22 February 2012 - 06:08 PM, said:

Oh, I just thought that maybe if Drogo had kept the original itchy dressings on and not drunk as Mirri had instructed then his wound would not have festered.

Yeah, that's what I thought too, to be honest.

[Phat Walda]

I can tell when I get to this part in the reread I'm going to be doing the same thing I did with Lady's chapter: "Please make it end different this time, don't let this happen this time, no no no no..."

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

Drowsey Dragon, on 23 February 2012 - 09:47 AM, said:

My impression was the baby would have been normal and grown to be this legendary conquerer if Dany was not carried into the tent during the blood magic ritual.Maz made it clear not to enter the tent. Since she gave birth during the ritual inside the tent, it turned her baby into an abomination.

This is very interesting.  I had not looked at it like this.  This would explain some of the Dany hate that I have been reading.  I could not understand why she was being blamed for Rhaego and Drogo...

Doesn't Mirri Maz Duur essentially confess that she intentionally stabbed Dany in the back?  I am relying on memory, I just started my re-read and I am not to this point yet.  Is there specific evidence that Dany was at fault?

[Xtopher]

Mirri Maz Duur ultimately says, when she is about to get burned to death, that she did what she did on revenge for Drogo´s destruction of her home and family. It wasnt at all Dany´s fault, it was all Mirri´s doing.

[Fylimar]

I thought so, too. Mirri confessed, that she killed Drogo intentionally and if  I remember correctly, she even said, that the horse wasn't meant to be the death for Drogos life - which could be interpretetd that she did count on Dany entering the tent during the ritual and get her baby killed (maybe she knew, that Dany would give birth before the ritual is done).

[protar]

TheTarrasque, on 22 February 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:

What I found very disturbing about the description of Rhaego was the extreme similarities to a rare birth disease called "Harlequin Icthyosis". I don't know if that is what GRRM intended but the chapter instantly reminded me of a very graphic youtube video which I will not post here.

Spoiler

Even though Ser Jorrah confessed to betraying Danny to Varys I don't think he would have lied about Rhaegos stillbirth and condidtion. Because that would mean that Mirri And Jorrah conspired to tell the same lie. Remember, Mormont did not trust Mirri.

Could you elaborate? I'm morbidly curious but I really don't want to look it up.

[TheTarrasque]

protar, on 23 February 2012 - 03:42 PM, said:

Could you elaborate? I'm morbidly curious but I really don't want to look it up.

Quote

Harlequin ichthyosis, a skin disease, is the most severe form of congenital ichthyosis, characterized by a thickening of the keratin layer in fetal human skin. In sufferers of the disease, the skin contains massive, diamond-shaped scales, and tends to have a reddish color. In addition, the eyes, ears, penis, and the appendages may be abnormally contracted. The scaly keratin greatly limits the child's movement. Because of resultant cracked skin in locations where normal skin would fold, it is easily pregnable by bacteria and other contaminants, resulting in serious risk of fatal infectio

Edited by TheTarrasque, 23 February 2012 - 04:01 PM.

[protar]

TheTarrasque, on 23 February 2012 - 03:58 PM, said:

thanks?

"shudder"

[The Bastard of Bolton]

Xtopher, on 23 February 2012 - 12:25 PM, said:

Mirri Maz Duur ultimately says, when she is about to get burned to death, that she did what she did on revenge for Drogo´s destruction of her home and family. It wasnt at all Dany´s fault, it was all Mirri´s doing.

This is what throws me off.
Initially I hated Mirri because I put all the blame on her, especially after she acted all snarky about it.
But when you think of it this basically boils down to Drogo's headstrong attitude.
If he had followed instructions, kept the dressing on, not drank then his wound would not have festered and Daeny would never had been so desperate as to agree to blood magic, Drogo would have survived, Rhaego would have survived, and ASOIAF would have turned out very differently.