Dawn, Jon's parents and Aegon.

[Pliskin]

Hello.

This thread could be considered as another crackpot theory, but a theory I'm not even convinced of. It's just that I was wondering...

What would be the consequences of Dawn being Lightbringer ?

Many believe this (I'm one of them), so if we take it as a postulate... (the thread is not about Dawn = Lightbringer theory so I will not try to convince you of that, just consider it true while reading this post if you're interested).

We know Jon has dreams of wielding a flaming sword we could interpret it to be Lightbringer, there's a lot of foreshadowing of him being Azor Ahai. If we believe this, he would be wielding Dawn sooner or later as the Sword of the Morning.

But to wield Dawn, don't you need to be a Dayne or at least related to them ?

I'm gonna go against R+L=J theory then (even if I'm more convinced of it than of what will follow) and say he's really Ashara's son.

The father would be either Ned or Brandon, doesn't matter (well it does in fact if we understand the vision of Ned in front of the weirwood saying "let them grow up as brothers" as a proof of "Jon isn't Ned's son", but whatever).

At this point, we could ask ourselves about the R+L mystery. I think that the possibility of Lyanna not dying at childbirth is very unlikely, so what about her child ? And also, what about Ashara disappearance ? Why did she kill herself ?

If Lyanna had a child with Rhaegar, Ned needed to protect the baby, and isn't sending him outside Westeros the best way of doing that ? What if he had a secret arrangement with Ashara : you disappear with R+L's child and I'll raise your son (Jon) and make him as honourable as possible.

Then, they would make up Ashara's death and she would leave with R+L's son (Aegon tadam... I told you it was crackpot...). Then, she would meet Illyrio or something... and you know what follows, she becomes Septa Lemore.

I found it very satisfying towards Jon being Azor Ahai Reborn. But it would mean that the song of Ice and Fire is Aegon's... and that's disappointing. Aegon would be the Prince That Was Promised. But he does have more Targ features than Jon...

Of course, we could consider that there is no need to be a Dayne to wield Dawn... and then this thread is useless. Don't mind saying it :D

[Rose of Winterfell]

I've toyed with the same sort of idea, but I don't understand why Illyrio/Varys/Ashara would have to say Aegon was Elia's son to the people around them, surely they could tell JonCon at least that he was Lyanna's? I also think there's lots of foreshadowing that Jon is Lyanna and Rhaegar's like the blue rose on the wall of ice which becomes inexplicable if this is the case.

Dawn could have been the first Lightbringer, but it could be a different sword this time? The thing that made it special was that AA killed his wife with it, so if whoever is AA does something similar (I really hope not) with a different sword then a new Lightbringer could be forged?

[Pliskin]

I've toyed with the same sort of idea, but I don't understand why Illyrio/Varys/Ashara would have to say Aegon was Elia's son to the people around them, surely they could tell JonCon at least that he was Lyanna's?

Well, they couldn't prove that he was legitimate, they couldn't even prove that R&L had actually a son...

And JonCon is a honourable sort of guy. He wouldn't have agreed to lie to people about Aegon.

[Blue Rose Direwolf]

What if Septa Lemore is actually Lyanna?

*gasp*

[Free Northman]

Well, then Martin should have written about 4 preceding 1000 page books detailing Aegon's story as the main hero.

Which he hasn't. So he isn't.

[Bear Grylls of Skagos]

But the pince that was promised must be born from Aerys's AND Rhaella's line.So if Jon isn't Rhaegar's son,there is no way he can be Azhor Azhai.

[Pliskin]

Which he hasn't. So he isn't.

Thank you.

(You would notice though that the main hero who saves the day against the Others and stuff is still Jon in this theory)

But the pince that was promised must be born from Aerys's AND Rhaella's line.So if Jon isn't Rhaegar's son,there is no way he can be Azhor Azhai.

I found it very satisfying towards Jon being Azor Ahai Reborn. But it would mean that the song of Ice and Fire is Aegon's... and that's disappointing. Aegon would be the Prince That Was Promised. But he does have more Targ features than Jon...

We don't know yet for sure if AAR = TPTWP.

In this theory, it's not the case.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

If you're not arguing in favor of Dawn as Lightbringer, where are you getting the idea that if he's AA, he will wield Dawn? I don't understand the Point A to Point B here. It seems like you're contradicting yourself.

I'm also leery of saying that "the song of ice and fire" is Person A's over Person B's because of Person A's ... hair and eye color? :dunno:

If Ned's weirwood prayer is evidence that Jon isn't his son -- and I think it is -- that leaves Brandon and Lyanna as possible parents (I'm discounting Benjen because of his age and the fact that he spent the war in Winterfell). Based on Jon's age (provided by Martin), Brandon would have been dead by the time Jon was conceived. That leaves Lyanna as his mother, which means his mother can't be Ashara.

[Pliskin]

The main flaw of this crackpot theory is that Daenerys is sort of... left behind.

If Jon is AA, and Aegon is the PTWP, then she's just nothing and her story is pointless.

That's why I don't believe in my own crackpot theory.

[Monk Meth-]

do you guys even pay attention when you read? there is no way dawn can be lightbringer.

[Pliskin]

If you're not arguing in favor of Dawn as Lightbringer, where are you getting the idea that if he's AA, he will wield Dawn? I don't understand the Point A to Point B here. It seems like you're contradicting yourself.

?

Don't understand.

I took Dawn = Lightbringer as a postulate. And then "constructed" the rest from there.

[Pliskin]

do you guys even pay attention when you read? there is no way dawn can be lightbringer.

Many believe this (I'm one of them), so if we take it as a postulate... (the thread is not about Dawn = Lightbringer theory so I will not try to convince you of that, just consider it true while reading this post if you're interested).

That means that if you don't believe it AND don't want to consider it true just for the time you're reading the post, then no need to read this thread.

[FanTasy]

Interesting thread Pliskin! :cheers:

If one forgets R+L=J and assumes N+A=J it is very interesting to associate it with what we know of Dawn. It seems to linger in some cupboard in Starfall, waiting for the Sword of the Morning, worthy to carry it.

Jon promised in his oath he would be 'the sword in the darkness' and the 'light that brings the dawn'.

Very interesting :cool4:

I am a fan of the parallels GRRM uses. The baby swap Jon orders at the Wall. A 'prince' is raised as a bastard by his fake father. This cries out: like Jon, like Jon! The swap of Myrcella should tell us something, the swap of Bran and Rickon with the miller boys. Davos' head and hands. The pisswater boy at Kings Landing and Aegon. Or ... Jon being 'the stolen child' of Ashara that Cersei hinted at in AGOT? And Aegon the produce of Lyanna and Rhaegar? Ashara as confidante of Elia and being sister to Rhaegars best friend Arthur taking care of this child, knowing that she would not be allowed to raise her own child without shaming her family? Trusting Ned to raise it as his son?

The problems for this are numerous. Timelinewise, maybe. Although I suspect some timelines that are at the wiki are not always rock solid.

And of course for this theory to hold it is necessary that Ned was involved in it, up to his neck. He must have known about the Aegon swap.

There must have been a meeting somewhere, Ned meeting Rhaegar and coming to terms with him.

His price for not punishing Lyanna for what she did to House Stark? That sounds not too unbelievable: when a child would be at risk Ned would have cooperated.

A coming of terms between Rhaegar and Ned could be an explanation for that Ned never, ever thinks bad about Rhaegar.

[FanTasy]

do you guys even pay attention when you read? there is no way dawn can be lightbringer.

Care to elaborate?

[FanTasy]

The main flaw of this crackpot theory is that Daenerys is sort of... left behind.

If Jon is AA, and Aegon is the PTWP, then she's just nothing and her story is pointless.

That's why I don't believe in my own crackpot theory.

I am sorry but disagree. Dany still has a wonderful storyline: she wakes dragons out of stone. She may conquer Westeros with her Dragon Air Force.

I think we are led sniffling on a red herring by the prophecy of the prince that was promised and Azor Ahai.

There may be more than one person the prophecy applies to.

And Lightbringer may be a different prophecy or legend than the PTWP or AA.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

?

Don't understand.

I took Dawn = Lightbringer as a postulate. And then "constructed" the rest from there.

Sorry, I misread. I saw that this was not a Dawn = Lightbringer thread and thought you were saying it wasn't and then saying it was ... I see what you meant now. But for the other reasons I said, even if Dawn is Lightbringer, I don't think that Jon can be Ashara's son. Either he really is Ned's -- and there's too much to suggest he isn't -- or Martin was lying about his birth time line, which is the only way he could be Brandon's. Which leaves Lyanna. He can't be, say, Ashara's with Rhaegar because there's a Stark in him somewhere. The other possibility is that he's Lyanna's with Arthur, but that's just ... really ridiculous.

ETA: Also, as FanTasy pointed out and you implied, this theory kind of relies on Ned knowing about the Aegon switch, yes? Ned recalls dead baby Aegon in his POV and never hints that he knew or suspected that the child was fake.

[Pliskin]

The problems for this are numerous. Timelinewise, maybe. Although I suspect some timelines that are at the wiki are not always rock solid.

And of course for this theory to hold it is necessary that Ned was involved in it, up to his neck. He must have known about the Aegon swap.

There must have been a meeting somewhere, Ned meeting Rhaegar and coming to terms with him.

His price for not punishing Lyanna for what she did to House Stark? That sounds not too unbelievable: when a child would be at risk Ned would have cooperated.

A coming of terms between Rhaegar and Ned could be an explanation for that Ned never, ever thinks bad about Rhaegar.

Ned can't be involved with Varys/Illyrio. He wanted to put Stannis on the throne, and his encounters with Varys don't seem like he would be involved with him.

Ashara would have gone to Illyrio on her own, without Ned knowing.

Maybe she was Serra and not Septa Lemore ?

[Pliskin]

Sorry, I misread. I saw that this was not a Dawn = Lightbringer thread and thought you were saying it wasn't and then saying it was ... I see what you meant now. But for the other reasons I said, even if Dawn is Lightbringer, I don't think that Jon can be Ashara's son. Either he really is Ned's -- and there's too much to suggest he isn't -- or Martin was lying about his birth time line, which is the only way he could be Brandon's. Which leaves Lyanna. He can't be, say, Ashara's with Rhaegar because there's a Stark in him somewhere. The other possibility is that he's Lyanna's with Arthur, but that's just ... really ridiculous.

Martin could have just given the "official" age of Jon. His age if we follow Ned's official version. The age Jon thinks he is.

[Monk Meth-]

Care to elaborate?

Dawn doesn't emit it's own heat, dawn doesn't even have the characteristics of a flaming sword. Dawn is a milkglass coloured bastard sword. how would lightbringer end up all the way in dorne? Lightbringer has it's own lore.. and dawn has it's own lore.. how could anyone think they are the same?

[The Duke]

I don't see this as happening, but Jon wouldn't neccessarily have to be a Dayne to somehow receive Dawn. He isn't a Mormont, yet was given Longclaw. He could return Longclaw to Jorah Mormont should he end up taking the Black and then in whatever sort of twist receive Dawn from Ashara.