More Racism - the subtler, gentler, kind

[Balefont]

The whole "orientals" thing is kinda jaw-dropping. The people that say it are so secure in thinking that they didn't mean anything by it, but it's usually an indication of how little they care about offending people.

My experience is that many people who use the term are ignorant of the true meaning and essence of the word. They know the "N" word is a big no-no but perhaps Asians are the minority of the minority.

< shrug >

[MinDonner]

In fact, I just don't buy that "Oriental" is accepted parlance where you are -- I'm going to just chalk this up to ignorance, and I do not believe that there is some backwards region of Britain where this musty colonialist word is still accepted.

Now that's unfair, and also untrue. It's one thing to suggest that terms considered offensive here should be avoided here, but there's no need to go imposing American English linguistic norms on countries where the words genuinely do have different connotations. "Oriental" is not in particularly common use, but not once have I heard it considered racist here.

[Paddy]

Nukelavee, str8 and co:

Here's two scenarios. I hope you can see that the difference in the response to the correction is what the "overly-offended" people have a problem with:

"there's a lot of oriental people in here"

"umm, that's a racially-loaded term that a lot of people find quite offensive. Could you stop using it?"

"Really? Wow, people where I am from use it all the time without, as far as I know, negative connotations. I am sorry. I didn't mean to offend. I'll refrain from using it in this location in the future."

"there's a lot of oriental people in here"

"umm, that's a racially-loaded term that a lot of people find quite offensive. Could you stop using it?"

"What? I am not a racist. I can't believe you could call me that. Where I am from there is nothing racist about it at all. It's just a word to describe people and things from the East. Get over yourself. I can't believe you are so sensitive. You really ought to be able to see past my words and somehow figure out that I wasn't using it in an offensive way. That's the problem with the world today, all the PC idiots who just call people racist at the drop of a hat. You know, by using the word so much, you are diminishing it. Because you are calling me a racist and I am not a racist. How could you not know I am not a racist?"

Sadly, I have been guilty of the latter kind behaviour in the past (on this board, even, but on different topics). I hope to fuck that I've grown up enough to not be such a fucking dick ever again.

[Greywolf2375]

Sorry, I think I'm being oversensitive.

Typical woman...

:D

Basically what I've seen this thread boil down to is that one group of people when communicating thinks of the other person they are speaking to (or speaking near even) and another doesn't think that is important because internally the words are acceptable.regardless of external meaning.

[Minaku]

Glad you brought up Said, I've got Orientalism sitting on a bookshelf about 4 metres from the head of me. He focuses more on the Muslim world, and his thesis of otherness and inferiority in European perceptions of other cultures is about 75% correct. I think he over supposes a unified European mindset, and underestimates the differences in how various regions existed in the European imagination, and doesn't quite nail how that evolved over time, and the influences which caused those changes. Still, a very good book.

I'd say that the argument you just made is more relevant, but when I hear the word Orient, I don't get images of opium dens or incscrutability. The British experience and understanding of East Asia is different, given our more intimate connection to it, through the modern colony at Hong Kong and the occupation of Malaya which lasted up to the '60s. Not that colonialism was a good thing, but I think that "the Orient" in America was always a much more unreal place which was imagined rather than directly experienced, whereas for us it was a real place with lots of interesting people to be exploited.

And what does your British experience have to do with the very American Jeremy Lin?

If you have no problem using Oriental on a more regular basis, I expect to see the word Occidental show up way more. "The Occidental experience...but I think that "The Orient" in the Occident was always a much more unreal place...whereas for us [in the Occident] it was a real place..."

Suddenly I am thinking of Coleridge's "Kubla Khan."