400 replies to this topic

[Lummel]

I'm not sure the word Oriental is currently used differently in the UK than it is in the USA.  Applied to a person it seems fusty and Victorian to me with the word 'inscrutable' and the phrase 'opium den' as it's handmaids.

[Greywolf2375]

str8 outta Old Town, on 26 February 2012 - 02:12 PM, said:

Or do you not think it's more likely that people who interact regularly with people of other races and feel comfortable with them are less likely to have a broomstick up their arses about the whole question?

Or maybe should be more sensitive to what can be & is considered potentially racist and insensitive?  The comments made weren't made to his wife - they were made to the public domain where whatever he may call his wife (or insert other I have a _____ of _____ and S/he says it's ok for me to say _____) do not make a damn bit of difference.

[DanteGabriel]

Manhole Eunuchsbane, on 26 February 2012 - 03:53 PM, said:

It sounded a lot like the "It's a (insert racial minority of your choice) thing, you wouldn't understand" box. Kind of dismissive.

When aforementioned person is telling me I'm being oversensitive or knee-jerking (and as in Nukelavee's case has shown terrible reading comprehension) I'm going to dismiss their opinion, yes.

[TerraPrime]

Greywolf2375, on 26 February 2012 - 03:58 PM, said:

Or maybe should be more sensitive to what can be & is considered potentially racist and insensitive?  The comments made weren't made to his wife - they were made to the public domain where whatever he may call his wife (or insert other I have a _____ of _____ and S/he says it's ok for me to say _____) do not make a damn bit of difference.

And for the record, I don't think the person who made the comment (the "chink in the armor") was using it in a racist way. It seems like a true case of not being aware. The writer who picked up the line and used it, on the other hand, was clearly trying to be clever and deliberately disregarding the problematic wording.

What I was responding to is the aftermath of that - that somehow, this original commenter having an Asian wife makes him more believable. No, it really doesn't.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Greywolf2375, on 26 February 2012 - 03:58 PM, said:

  The comments made weren't made to his wife - they were made to the public domain

Agreed. That's a distinction that str8 outta Old Town failed to make.

[Aoife]

Manhole Eunuchsbane, on 26 February 2012 - 03:53 PM, said:

It sounded a lot like the "It's a (insert racial minority of your choice) thing, you wouldn't understand" box. Kind of dismissive.

Oh well in that case it's "it's a <> thing, we wouldn't understand, so we'd better listen to those who do" box. Telling people they're oversensitive, looking to be offended, or reaching != listening.

[TerraPrime]

I'd also like to say that I am not aware that those who think the portrayals of Lin skirt around racism have said that "you're disagreeing with us because you're white - you just won't understand." We have been arguing that some of the people commenting just don't seem to see the offense, but I am not aware that we're making that assessment based on their skin color.

[DanteGabriel]

Typical Woman, on 26 February 2012 - 04:19 PM, said:

I'd also like to say that I am not aware that those who think the portrayals of Lin skirt around racism have said that "you're disagreeing with us because you're white - you just won't understand." We have been arguing that some of the people commenting just don't seem to see the offense, but I am not aware that we're making that assessment based on their skin color.

It's probably my fault because I speculated that some commenters were white.  I wasn't trying to say white people couldn't have valid opinions, but I suppose some people just saw me saying something about white people and... ah, what's the word?  Oh right, their knees jerked.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Typical Woman, on 26 February 2012 - 04:19 PM, said:

I'd also like to say that I am not aware that those who think the portrayals of Lin skirt around racism have said that "you're disagreeing with us because you're white - you just won't understand." We have been arguing that some of the people commenting just don't seem to see the offense, but I am not aware that we're making that assessment based on their skin color.

I think Luisa's post kind of flirted with that line, but yeah, I more or less agree.

I understand the offense in some of it. Some of it I find to be a bit of a stretch. That being said, I'm not presumptuous enough to say that I believe you or anyone else here is being oversensitive.

Edited by Manhole Eunuchsbane, 26 February 2012 - 04:37 PM.

[Nukelavee]

Which is odd, Luisa - because, hey, find where I've claimed otherwise?  That is exactly what I've said, over and over.  My sin is I've dared to not 100% agree with each and every point made.

Dante - give it up.  The yahoo thing?  go back, read it all again, what hasn't been deleted.  Check, again, the part of Yahoo's conditions, the ones that say "Yahoo does NOT check everything".  And then, try and grasp the difference between me saying "Y'know, without some solid proof on the guy's motivations, I'm not going to go ahead and say it absolutely is", and you seeming to claim that I'm writing it off.  There's a difference between me saying "find me some info, so i can make an educated decision" and you treating this like I said "I dare you to prove it!"

Luisa, again - One - I'm an openly bisexual male.  Soooo....I don't get it?  I can't see the difference?  Alas, that doesn't seem to count because I've dared to say that, hey, teh gay community isn't exactly universally tolerant of its own, in my experience.

I'm curious - you seem to think that, to a given person (correct me if I'm wrong.  Really.  I mean that.  Because I do want and need to know what you think, I don't want to assume) institutionalized discrimination is worse than individualized.  I ask because I've experienced both, and I really don't think I could say being treated badly for being bi was worse than being harassed simply for being me.  Actually, I think the individual attention was worse, but I was much younger, so... I don't know.

And, I don't think I accused you, personally, of anything.  I don't recall ever having communicated with you.

My point, and my issue, is that how can anybody think spouting shit like "privileged white frat boy, etc" is doing anything, whatsoever, to help?
Dismissing a somewhat different view, because somebody isn't black, or asian, or anything, with "you don't know, you can't know", or "you haven't the right to comment" seems like a good way to increase tolerance?

When a topic lists, what, a dozen ways teh media has been displaying racism in it's handling of Lin, and somebody agrees that it's happening, but simply says "I don't know if this example is racist, or just stupidity", they have Dante spouting off insults about every aspect of them, and that's justified?

Hey - I get that racism exists, and I get that, here, in Canada, teh odds of being discriminated against for being "white" seem pretty slim to you, but..

Trying finding a job as a teen in a town that is pretty much either Dutch Reformed, or Portuguese, and you aren't either.  Try being in high school and dealing with that.  True, it might not mirror the extant of your experiences, but, really, you call that invalid?

And this is a topic where, I've been told, the posters WANT tolerance to spread, and discrimination stopped.  The whole point is to stop turning a blind eye to this stuff.

Insensitivity?  When all some of us want is to be part of the discussion, and, yes, teh solution, but instead, we are made to feel the opposite.  And when we say "hey, doesn't that seem a bit foolish to alienate the very people who do agree with most of your feelings", we get told "all or nothing".

I can only imagine what has been posted since my last post, but I can well imagine Dante is ranting, and Terra is saying "don't be derailed, sister", or some other snide shot about how we, or I, don't get it.  But... I'll point out, the Rotenberg topic shows people's reactions to comments made about mental illness, and I have yet to see those who made them even admit they may be out of line, or explain themselves.

Am I accusing some people here of being racist?  No, I'm not.  Am I accusing them of being insensitive or mean spirited and smug?  Yeah, I really am, because that's what they've showed me.

Am I sincerely angry with some, or filled with contempt for others?  You bet your ass I am, and most of that is I know for a fact most of you wouldn't dream of acting like this face to face, not because of what I could or might do, but because then, then you would be dealing with a person, and not some cardboard standup  you've labeled and dehumanized.  I'm angry because I'm pretty sure most of you are far better people than you project, and likely could teach teh rest of us something of worse, if you could be bothered.

[DanteGabriel]

Nukelavee, on 26 February 2012 - 05:41 PM, said:

Dante - give it up.  The yahoo thing?  go back, read it all again, what hasn't been deleted.  Check, again, the part of Yahoo's conditions, the ones that say "Yahoo does NOT check everything".  And then, try and grasp the difference between me saying "Y'know, without some solid proof on the guy's motivations, I'm not going to go ahead and say it absolutely is", and you seeming to claim that I'm writing it off.  There's a difference between me saying "find me some info, so i can make an educated decision" and you treating this like I said "I dare you to prove it!"

Read back where I said I blame Yahoo for the picture of Yao in a story about Lin.  My whole point hinged on the fact that Yahoo is responsible for anything appearing under its banner, and that the post had to have been seen by editorial staff -- which the submission guidelines were pretty explicit about.  I gave up on giving a shit about the individual writer himself, and you don't have any evidence to suggest that he's even the one who attached the photo.  For all we know Yahoo staff put that inappropriate picture there, but you wouldn't go so far as to read what I was writing because you worked yourself into a blind tizzy about your oppressed whitehood.  The fact is that Yahoo published an article with a photo that suggested they couldn't tell that Jeremy Lin was not a member of the Chinese national team, or they didn't care what the photo said, they've had plenty of time to realize it was inappropriate (and there have been plenty of comments to help them) and they haven't done anything with it.  I blame Yahoo.  This has been my argument for a while, but you, who are all over me about what I have or haven't read, keeps bringing it back to the individual writer, when I discarded that notion long ago.

And yes, when you tell me I'm knee-jerking, I'm going to get pissed.  Watch your own fucking discourse if you want some respect back.  Because your own posts, your patronizing attitude about what I may or may not find offensive, your ridiculous notion that Yahoo doesn't screen what goes up on its website when you don't even know if it was Yahoo or the contributor that chose that photo, fills me with contempt.

Nukelavee, on 26 February 2012 - 05:41 PM, said:

And this is a topic where, I've been told, the posters WANT tolerance to spread, and discrimination stopped.  The whole point is to stop turning a blind eye to this stuff.

Insensitivity?  When all some of us want is to be part of the discussion, and, yes, teh solution, but instead, we are made to feel the opposite.  And when we say "hey, doesn't that seem a bit foolish to alienate the very people who do agree with most of your feelings", we get told "all or nothing".

I can only imagine what has been posted since my last post, but I can well imagine Dante is ranting, and Terra is saying "don't be derailed, sister", or some other snide shot about how we, or I, don't get it.  But... I'll point out, the Rotenberg topic shows people's reactions to comments made about mental illness, and I have yet to see those who made them even admit they may be out of line, or explain themselves.

Am I accusing some people here of being racist?  No, I'm not.  Am I accusing them of being insensitive or mean spirited and smug?  Yeah, I really am, because that's what they've showed me.

Really?  This high-minded idealism is hard to square with the jackass who told me I was knee-jerking and the whole ridiculous outpouring of puerile drivel put forth in Post 252.  I'm also pretty sure you used your deadly effective sarcasm in that post to imply that we were being racist against white people.  Don't piss on my head and tell me it's raining, and don't post that kind of whiny entitled horseshit and then try and pretend you're the person on the moral high road who wants to achieve greater understanding when you spent 500 words whining about how the minorities oppress you in discussions of racism.

Edited by DanteGabriel, 26 February 2012 - 06:30 PM.

[Aoife]

Nuk, claimed otherwise which? You mean you weren't telling the Asian people in this thread what is or is not offensive?

Your examples are still instances of discrimination, not systemic racism. Yes, it is terrible to be discriminated against as a white person, but in general people don't have the power of law and broader society behind them when they do it. It's a complicated system, entwined with colonialism (so it's not as simple as "no white majority in power -> no impact"), and it's - once again - not saying that shitty things never happen to people with privilege.

And no, just because you're an openly bisexual male does not automatically mean you understand the oppression of racism. I'm disadvantaged for the simple fact that I am a woman. However, I'm still far better off than a woman who is also visibly queer, or trans, or a WoC, or disabled, or.... I can extrapolate from my experiences to try to empathise with the anger, fear, and frustration someone else might feel, but I'll never fully grok it. That doesn't mean I can't try to recognise when it's happening and at least attempt to be an ally in the fight against it.

Also, I don't think I ever said that every individual is going to find systemic oppression worse than individual discrimination, especially right when it's happening. However, I do think that on the whole, the systemic version is the one to fight, and it has a much wider effect than something that can be brushed aside as "some asshole doing something terrible".

Also also, I think the main problem is when more-privileged/less-affected people come into these discussions and are upset when their voices are not valued as highly as others, or their solution is rejected, precisely because they're (we're) so used to being catered to. I am extrapolating from feminist/women's rights discussions, but in general I think that it's like an enthusiastic beginner or an overeager puppy. All lthe best intentions in the world, but as liable to get in the way / be a distraction as to actually help. Still, usually a help eventually, but sometimes you still just need to tell them to shut up. And frankly, if someone's willing to give up the fight just because they're told they have more learning to do, or someone was mean to them once, they probably weren't that good an ally to begin with.

(Also also also, we've been interacting for months. I just changed my name. It's Aoife Trevgaryen.)

[Minaku]

Eef and Terra, was it name change day?  When I figured out Terra was TypicalWoman I just started cackling and didn't stop for several minutes.

Dante's going to have to get a daikon-related custom title to show solidarity now.  I just changed my avatar to Wang Lee Hom (my new boyfriend! Sorry Takeshi) but I'll keep my daikon title for a while.

As for Nuke, wow.  Not to belittle your experiences, but maybe that giant post up there is best suited to a different thread.  Maybe what you need to do is take those feelings and extrapolate to those of us who are feeling the same way, but for different reasons.

Some days it's really hard not to throw my hands up in the air and shout, "White people will never understand!"  Then I defer to Terra because he's so much better at this than I am.  I just grind my teeth and smash my forehead on the table repeatedly.

[Aoife]

Min - yeah, basically. There's a thread petitioning Trisk to change his name back, and the rest of us are approximately 5, so we all changed in response.

[TerraPrime]

Luisa Aoiftrazzini, on 26 February 2012 - 06:25 PM, said:

the rest of us are approximately 5

I'm 5 and a half!!


(Mina: yes plus I've been wanting to change my icon to daikon for a while, now, so it was good timing. Plus, I'm showing my solidarity with my white people by showcasing a vegetable that's white, and yet, very palatable to Asians. White Power!)

[Minaku]

And phallic.  Terra, it's perfect.

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

Nukelavee, on 26 February 2012 - 05:41 PM, said:

Am I sincerely angry with some, or filled with contempt for others?  You bet your ass I am, and most of that is I know for a fact most of you wouldn't dream of acting like this face to face, not because of what I could or might do, but because then, then you would be dealing with a person, and not some cardboard standup  you've labeled and dehumanized.  I'm angry because I'm pretty sure most of you are far better people than you project, and likely could teach teh rest of us something of worse, if you could be bothered.

I am taking it at face value that you are being sincere, and you are not, in fact, acting like a jerk on purpose. I am also accepting, provisionally, that you are sincerely offended by the responses you have received to your contributions to this thread.

If both of those things are true, then you are astoundingly oblivious of how nasty, dumb and irrelevant some of your comments in this thread have been. This thread was started to discuss racist/racially insensitive comments made regarding Jeremy Lin, and its implications for the broader issue of racial insensitivity towards Asians in America. Maybe this is not your topic. Maybe you don't care. Maybe you don't think any of the examples provided were actually racist or racially insensitive. Fair enough. Maybe this just isn't your thread to comment in. Or maybe you could stake out your position in a pleasant, polite manner. These are options.

What you chose to do, instead, was blow into the thread with a truly obnoxious post questioning TerraPrime's motivations, and suggesting, quite smarmily, that he (and I think, by extension, other Asian commentators in this thread) wouldn't care about non-Asians being discriminated against by Asians simply because they are Asian. You also, and I'm not even sure you realized it, managed to paint yourself as the defender of the defenseless while simultaneously identifying yourself, explicitly, with the dominant, oppressive culture ("Does racism only matter if it's us grinding you[?]"). Put it all together, and it looks like someone claiming the patina of white privilege storming right on into the thread to demand that all the Asians acknowledge horrible Asian racism as a precondition for you even being willing to discuss or acknowledge the racial insensitivity against Asians (at least one in particular) that were the basis of the thread in the first place.

Judging you by your own standard, I cannot believe that if you happened to bump into TerraPrime at a bar, discussing this issue with some casual acquaintances, that you would have ever walked up to him and said "Does racism only matter if it's us grinding you?"  It was truly obnoxious.

That you decided that you had to follow it up with your "Don't bother trying. You are white" post, which essentially called everyone who disagree with you in this thread racist, well, that was just the cherry on top.

Don't get me wrong - I think it's a huge problem when people don't debate ideas, but rather personalities, and when genuine contributions are discounted because of who contributed it. But you are as guilty, if not more so, of this behavior than anyone else in the thread. If you don't understand the reception you're receiving here, well, the fault, dear Nukelavee, lies not in our stars.

[Verboten]

Minaku, on 26 February 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

Eef and Terra, was it name change day?  When I figured out Terra was TypicalWoman I just started cackling and didn't stop for several minutes.

Dante's going to have to get a daikon-related custom title to show solidarity now.  I just changed my avatar to Wang Lee Hom (my new boyfriend! Sorry Takeshi) but I'll keep my daikon title for a while.

As for Nuke, wow.  Not to belittle your experiences, but maybe that giant post up there is best suited to a different thread.  Maybe what you need to do is take those feelings and extrapolate to those of us who are feeling the same way, but for different reasons.

Some days it's really hard not to throw my hands up in the air and shout, "White people will never understand!"  Then I defer to Terra because he's so much better at this than I am.  I just grind my teeth and smash my forehead on the table repeatedly.

Personally, as a white person, I don't think it really matters if we understand or not, because racism, and consequently the battle against it, is not about us. I've been a bit of an ass in this thread and I do find it hard to keep my mouth shut sometimes but in the end I've accepted that I'll never really understand the experience of what it would be like to be the victim of racism, so I should try to shut up and listen to those who do. It's sort of like how a straight person will never understand internalized homophobia, I think. Sorry for my lecture earlier, I was a bit of an ass.

[str8 outta Old Town]

Nukelavee, on 26 February 2012 - 03:12 PM, said:

Str8 - Don't bother trying.  You are white.  You have no right to ever comment on any form of discrimination, ever.  That seems to be this Board's number one law.

Do I get a get out of jail free card for not actually being white?

[Minaku]

Au contraire, it IS about you.  You're the other side.  There have to be two sides in order to have racism in the first place.

The best result would be if you examined your actions and made positive changes to the way you think and act.  That's all we can really ask for.