400 replies to this topic

[Ormond]

str8 outta Old Town, on 11 March 2012 - 03:52 PM, said:

This might be a cultural thing, I've lived in lots of societies where you aren't expected to apologise for things that aren't your fault, and are thought less of if you do. But I agree anglo-saxon cultures work that way.

And where might that be?

As I understand it both Japanese and Latin American culture are MORE into apology than Anglo-Saxon culture, and I haven't heard any Americans complain that any western European culture (except maybe the French) was less apologetic than Anglo-Saxon culture. So just where are you talking about?

Edited by Ormond, 11 March 2012 - 04:12 PM.

[TrueMetis]

str8 outta Old Town, on 11 March 2012 - 04:07 PM, said:

The point I'm making is that in the dialect of English I use, oriental is not generally considered racist, merely a slightly old fashioned adjective refering to East Asian things. It's not used as noun, so "Oriental people "or "oriental cultures" would be ok, but we don't say "orientals". Now if anybody can tell my WHY they should be offended by a word that means to me "coming from the East" I might consider not using it.

Well in my experience Oriental refers to things, so it'd be a lot like me referring to you as an it.

Edited by TrueMetis, 11 March 2012 - 04:15 PM.

[ericxihn]

I'm not particularly offended by "Oriental" though I haven't really heard that word spoken in a while, so I'll let other people argue that one, but remember that you got into this thread arguing that "Chink in the armor" isn't racist.

[Lord O' Bones]

str8 outta Old Town, on 11 March 2012 - 04:07 PM, said:

Now if anybody can tell my WHY they should be offended by a word that means to me "coming from the East" I might consider not using it.

This is seriously your standard?

Would it make sense for me to only maybe consider not calling you a cunt if you explain to me in advance why you should be offended by that?

[str8 outta Old Town]

Lord O, on 11 March 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

This is seriously your standard?

Would it make sense for me to only maybe consider not calling you a cunt if you explain to me in advance why you should be offended by that?

Well, in the dialect of English I speak, and the one you speak (American I believe) it is an insult, clearly intended to wound. In the dialect I speak (Northern English) oriental isn't.

[str8 outta Old Town]

Ormond, on 11 March 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:

And where might that be?

As I understand it both Japanese and Latin American culture are MORE into apology than Anglo-Saxon culture, and I haven't heard any Americans complain that any western European culture (except maybe the French) was less apologetic than Anglo-Saxon culture. So just where are you talking about?

Spain, Italy, Libya, Romania, Bolivia, France (well only Paris really), Russia.

Edited by str8 outta Old Town, 11 March 2012 - 04:31 PM.

[str8 outta Old Town]

TrueMetis, on 11 March 2012 - 04:12 PM, said:

Well in my experience Oriental refers to things, so it'd be a lot like me referring to you as an it.

But again, we don't speak the same dialect.

[TrueMetis]

str8 outta Old Town, on 11 March 2012 - 04:34 PM, said:

But again, we don't speak the same dialect.

In which case I would defer to the person(s) being offended, not the offender.

[DanteGabriel]

TrueMetis, on 11 March 2012 - 04:35 PM, said:

In which case I would defer to the person(s) being offended, not the offender.

Nah, we're just being oversensitive.

[MinDonner]

str8 outta Old Town, on 11 March 2012 - 04:34 PM, said:

But again, we don't speak the same dialect.

FFS.

This is an international board. In fact, this is a thread talking specifically about racism in American culture. So whatever the fuck you find it OK to say at home, you're not at home now. People have told you repeatedly that, in this place, that word is found offensive. Why do you need to keep arguing the point?

[Nukelavee]

No, str8t does have a point - some of you just feel like ignoring it.

Somebody being offended doesn't mean you were in the wrong.  Plenty of people claim offense over things that are utter and complete bullshit.  Like drunks, and young children.  It's sad.

Sure, there are times when you can actually be offensive, and not mean it, and likely should apologize, but assuming just because somebody claims offense, you were wrong?

Whatever.

And, Dante, sorry, but it's likely a good thing you don't worry what others think when you lose your shit in a post, again.  Because it's pretty fucking sad, and, dude, it turns you into a joke.  It has to be strictly an internet thing for you, because reacting like that, this often, to people would pretty much destroy any chance you have to be taken seriously.

It's like you can't, or won't, filter out comments that are just about you, with no bearing on whatever ethnic group you belong to, from actual racist comments.

Seriously, I really can't see you screaming fuck you over and over in public because somebody called you a dick, or disagreed with you.

Quote

What is ok with you and your Asian wife, or you and your black friend...may not be socially acceptable to a stranger of the same ethnic background. Your Asian wife or your black friend is not the be all, end all authority on the subject of what is or is not offensive to their particular race. Nor are their thoughts on what is or is not acceptable give you a free pass to make blanket statements that can be offensive to others of the same race.

That's true.  But does that mean it works the other way - just because one person finds it insulting, everybody must act like they find it insulting too?  I mean, should our baseline be the most sensitive person in a group?  It's a real question, not rhetorical, folks.

LoB

Quote

No matter how many times I try, "I didn't mean it so it's ok" never seems to be an adequate defense. It is however lazy as all hell, so it's got that going for it.

Except that, actually, we all know it often does pass, because mature people generally can understand that shit happens.  The other side of it, tho, is when somebody is determined to take offense, whether or not it even occurred.  Or connects one statement or action to another one, in order to justify their offense.

Dante gives great examples here.  Call him oversensitive, bam, you're a racist motherfucker, with a dead dog dick in your mouth.  Except, he's not really reacting to being called oversensitive, he's reacting, I guess, to somebody telling him he isn't actually always right when he reacts to some things.   I guess.


Or maybe he's reacting to the gall of being called wrong in a thread, technically, that relates to his own experiences.

But it's pretty hard to care what he says, when he posts what he does.  And, sadly, no matter how little you care, dude, what people like str8t (and I) think about you actually should matter.  Because, well, if you are right, it's us that need to change, but turning into a raging honey badger isn't going to win us over.  It just gets any contribution you might have made ignored, or missed, in the venom.

I've already said I agree that personal experience, and relationships, don't mean that those standards are shared by everybody.

eta -I'm so not even concerned with "Oriental" in the context of this, just on things like "oversensitive", and apologies.

Edited by Nukelavee, 11 March 2012 - 05:03 PM.

[DanteGabriel]

Nope, Nuke, you've got me, I wouldn't be this foul mouthed in public, though I sure as shit wouldn't have any polite responses for some jackass who barged into a real life discussion of racism against Jeremy Lin by saying that Asian people are racists too and that white people are oppressed by minorities in discussions of race.  I definitely wouldn't be nice to someone who, when asked repeatedly to stop referring to people as Orientals, keeps on saying it because it's okay where he's from.

What I'm not going to do, though, is say that I'm a dick on the Internet because of some real life sob story.  Why don't I worry about my shit and you worry about yours?

Edited by DanteGabriel, 11 March 2012 - 05:06 PM.

[Lord O' Bones]

Nukelavee, on 11 March 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

mature people generally can understand that shit happens.  

Likewise, mature people generally refrain from saying things that are known to be offensive without having to have someone write a dissertation on why it's offensive. And apologize when they slip up.

Edited by Lord O' Bones, 11 March 2012 - 05:15 PM.

[str8 outta Old Town]

MinDonner, on 11 March 2012 - 04:37 PM, said:

FFS.

This is an international board. In fact, this is a thread talking specifically about racism in American culture. So whatever the fuck you find it OK to say at home, you're not at home now. People have told you repeatedly that, in this place, that word is found offensive. Why do you need to keep arguing the point?

If it's an international board, then all international versions of the language are equally valid here.

Anyway, I used the term oriental once, 15 pages back and haven't used it since except in terms of discussion of its validity. I did leave this argument alone, but it was brought up by Typical Woman. Dropping a topic goes both ways. If you don't like a word YOU could ignore it. Anyway, I've said my piece, and others have said (or in some cases, petulantly shrieked in a way that should preclude them from ever owning a gun) theirs.

Shall we leave the word oriental alone now?

Edited by str8 outta Old Town, 11 March 2012 - 05:13 PM.

[Nukelavee]

No, you're going to excuse being a dick on the internet for some other real life issue you have.  I mean, you coulda just left the last line off, and let me think, meh, Dante isn't so bad, but, no, you had to try for one more insult.

See?  We can bond over things like being a dick.  Soon we can all be one big happy species!  We shall be a shining example to all!

It makes me tingle to know we've connected like this.

[Galactus]

Lord O, on 11 March 2012 - 05:11 PM, said:

Likewise, mature people generally refrain from saying things that are known to be offensive without having to have someone write a dissertation on why it's offensive. And apologize when they slip up.

Exactly. Whether or not a word is offensive in its roots, or even offensive in the mainstream of language of wherever you're talking is really besides the point: It's just fucking common courtesy to refrain from calling someone something they consider offensive.

[TerraPrime]

str8 outta Old Town, on 11 March 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

Shall we leave the word oriental alone now?

Sure, since you are apparently unable to defend adequately your word choice in this thread, it would be rude of us to continue to rub that in your face.

Let's move on to a different word.

Do you call black people "niggers"? It's a fundamentally American word, after all, popularized in its offensiveness in American culture. Do you reject that linguistic imperialism, as well? When you see your dark-skinned friends in Northern England, do you call them that word? When you run across a black-skinned stranger, do you address them using that word? When you talk to internet people who self-identify as black or African-American or African, do you refer to them using that word? If not, why not? Why accept one form of linguistic imperialism, and reject another? Or do you demand that they justify why they find that word offensive to you first, before you think about whether curb your language to subject yourself to American linguistic imperialism?

[Minaku]

I'm trying to make sense of this here.  Sorry if I'm not following the line of logic.  Okay, Str8 says that in his dialect of English the usage of Oriental is inoffensive (so you are an Occidental).  This thread is however about an American incident involving an Asian-American.  Str8 continues to defend his usage of Oriental despite MinDonner explicitly pointing out that it's an American issue so his particular subset of English doesn't belong here.  Str8 counters by saying but oh, because it's not offensive to me it can't be offensive to anyone else.

Am I getting this right?  Did Str8 just tell us his argument is irrelevant and then use said irrelevant argument as a defense for his irrelevant argument?

[Sci-2]

Quote

Am I getting this right? Did Str8 just tell us his argument is irrelevant and then use said irrelevant argument as a defense for his irrelevant argument?

In his defense I do believe he mentioned having a second cousin whose girlfriend's brother has a roommate who is half-Asian.

[Minaku]

Sorry, I think I'm being oversensitive.