Stannis Baratheon becoming a Northman

[JLE]

I think Stannis already has the acceptance and respect of the northmen. He was already halfway in that direction, and Jon Snow showed him the rest of the way by showing him how to win the support of even the Northern Mountain Clans - the most temperamentally independent and bloody-minded of all the northmen. After a shaky start, he has the Glovers for certain: he has the Manderlys, though he does not know he has them (Wyman and Wylis have sworn to support him if he will put a Stark back in Winterfell, and I believe he intends to do just that). He has half the Umbers, and I believe in fact he has all of them (and that Hother is cooperating with his brother from inside Winterfell). The Karstarks, who would have turned traitor to him, have been discovered.

I think he will succeed in taking Winterfell by subterfuge which will involve temporarily faking his own death - using an impostor sitting in the chair, wielding the red sword, to smoke out whatever disguise Ramsay is using among the defecting / surrendering Manderly forces (since Stannis does not know Ramsay), when Ramsay, who equally does not know Stannis, tries to assassinate the impostor: if he fails with the assassination he gets caught, and if he succeeds, he believes himself successful and gets back to Winterfell - having assassinated the wrong man, and stolen the sword which has no magic, and letting in the "Karstark forces" - Stannis's own northmen wearing Karstark colours, to open the gate from the inside when the real Stannis comes calling.

But all of that will be for nothing, because the south will not have him. Cersei will try to hold on, Aegon will be the next threat there (and, whether real or fake, will have no reason to be friendly to Stannis), and there is the ever-present menace of Daenerys in the far east with her dragons should she ever return, while she lives there is the chance that she might. In any case, the Others are the greater danger to the North, and indeed to the world, than the South is.

I think Stannis's purpose will end up being not to live as a king, but to die as one. As one of the "two kings to wake the dragon" and save the realm from the Others. The other one being Theon: who, by virtue of being the only person who can challenge Euron's right to victory at the kingsmoot (by virtue of having not been there to stake his own claim), can himself claim to be King In Exile of the Iron Islands, just as Stannis is the King In Exile from King's Landing. Theon's claim would disappear the moment he actually sets foot on the Iron Islands, because in his state, he cannot possibly win a kingsmoot: he cannot live as a king, but he can die as one, so long as he never LOSES a kingsmoot (and, having died as one, pass on his own claim to Asha, giving her the right to call a second kingsmoot which she cannot justifiably call otherwise.)

Theon and Stannis, both to die - Theon spared at the heart tree for now, but there is no way he can live with his crimes against the North. He knows, and Asha knows, he must die, and let it at least be relatively painless and free from torture. So, a simple beheading, but at a later stage. Theon to die in blood... perhaps Stannis to die in fire? Fire and blood, as well as two kings, to "wake the dragon", whatever that might mean?

[Monctonvike]

I think Stannis already has the acceptance and respect of the northmen. He was already halfway in that direction, and Jon Snow showed him the rest of the way by showing him how to win the support of even the Northern Mountain Clans - the most temperamentally independent and bloody-minded of all the northmen. After a shaky start, he has the Glovers for certain: he has the Manderlys, though he does not know he has them (Wyman and Wylis have sworn to support him if he will put a Stark back in Winterfell, and I believe he intends to do just that). He has half the Umbers, and I believe in fact he has all of them (and that Hother is cooperating with his brother from inside Winterfell). The Karstarks, who would have turned traitor to him, have been discovered.

I think he will succeed in taking Winterfell by subterfuge which will involve temporarily faking his own death - using an impostor sitting in the chair, wielding the red sword, to smoke out whatever disguise Ramsay is using among the defecting / surrendering Manderly forces (since Stannis does not know Ramsay), when Ramsay, who equally does not know Stannis, tries to assassinate the impostor: if he fails with the assassination he gets caught, and if he succeeds, he believes himself successful and gets back to Winterfell - having assassinated the wrong man, and stolen the sword which has no magic, and letting in the "Karstark forces" - Stannis's own northmen wearing Karstark colours, to open the gate from the inside when the real Stannis comes calling.

But all of that will be for nothing, because the south will not have him. Cersei will try to hold on, Aegon will be the next threat there (and, whether real or fake, will have no reason to be friendly to Stannis), and there is the ever-present menace of Daenerys in the far east with her dragons should she ever return, while she lives there is the chance that she might. In any case, the Others are the greater danger to the North, and indeed to the world, than the South is.

I think Stannis's purpose will end up being not to live as a king, but to die as one. As one of the "two kings to wake the dragon" and save the realm from the Others. The other one being Theon: who, by virtue of being the only person who can challenge Euron's right to victory at the kingsmoot (by virtue of having not been there to stake his own claim), can himself claim to be King In Exile of the Iron Islands, just as Stannis is the King In Exile from King's Landing. Theon's claim would disappear the moment he actually sets foot on the Iron Islands, because in his state, he cannot possibly win a kingsmoot: he cannot live as a king, but he can die as one, so long as he never LOSES a kingsmoot (and, having died as one, pass on his own claim to Asha, giving her the right to call a second kingsmoot which she cannot justifiably call otherwise.)

Theon and Stannis, both to die - Theon spared at the heart tree for now, but there is no way he can live with his crimes against the North. He knows, and Asha knows, he must die, and let it at least be relatively painless and free from torture. So, a simple beheading, but at a later stage. Theon to die in blood... perhaps Stannis to die in fire? Fire and blood, as well as two kings, to "wake the dragon", whatever that might mean?

Wondeful post, and seems very plausible. Stannis sees himself burning alive. If he really believed his duty called for this especially if Shireen was lost I could even see him doing this for the realm. However it does seem more likely that he will be killed

Might be a little Hollywood but I could see Theon somehow bringing down Ramsay before he dies. As some have suggested maybe sneaking Stannis's group into the crypts of WF

[OmnomnomPomelo]

I think Stannis will either die or join the Night's Watch at the end. I wouldn't be okay with an other end for him.

But I can imagine that part of his men stay in the North, and for example a Rickon-Shireen marriage and Davos gets Hornwood instead of Rainwood.

[Lord Ross]

Perhaps he marries Rickon to Shireen and becomes King Regent in the North?

[Aaronomus]

Am I the only person who still suspects that Stannis might sit the Iron Throne at the end? It's a tribute to Martin's writing that despite the barrage of foreshadowing and having the best claim, it never even occurs to anyone that Stannis might actually win.

[Monctonvike]

Am I the only person who still suspects that Stannis might sit the Iron Throne at the end? It's a tribute to Martin's writing that despite the barrage of foreshadowing and having the best claim, it never even occurs to anyone that Stannis might actually win.

I would not be saddend by this :)

I would like to see him continue to grow a little more tolerant ....perhaps if he applies the lessons he learns through out the story....I really do feel he is utterly doomed though

[JLE]

I think Stannis will burn, in the end. And possibly, to save Shireen.

It ties into the whole Azor Ahai myth. Which I think, insofar as it ever existed (and of course, legends, even if close to the truth, are likely to be at best a distorted version), strikes me as heroism gone *wrong*. The person Azor Ahai should have sacrificed was *himself*, not the one he held most dear.

I believe the result will be that Shireen will be Stannis's modern-day equivalent to Nissa Nissa - a daughter rather than a wife, but the important thing, "the one he holds most dear" - and that, eventually, for lack of other royal blood to burn in her ritual, Melisandre will turn to Shireen: and the occasion for the burning will be a funeral pyre for Jon Snow after he loses the fight for life, after hovering between life and death for some time. Either at the Wall, or at Winterfell after the Wall falls and the refugees flee there (I do believe Stannis will beat the Boltons.) Either way, Stannis will have some reason to be present, and end up striking Melisandre down, but she will get to say some last words - something to do with two kings to wake the dragon, possibly? Or that a sacrifice of fire and blood is needed - the Lightbringer sword is not real YET, and needs this to become the real thing?

Azor Ahai made the choice one way. He killed what was most dear to him, to become the hero himself. And the dawn came again... *for a time*. But, ultimately, it failed, the Others are back. Whoever is faced with his choice must make a DIFFERENT choice - the one that leads to the permanent victory, not the temporary one.

And I think, that for Shireen, Stannis would walk into the fire himself if he believed it would save her, or would give even the chance for another person to be the hero that he himself never actually asked to be.

Two kings to wake the dragon. Theon, king-in-exile of the Iron Isles, to die by the sword (blood): Stannis, king-in-exile of King's Landing, by the flame (fire). Fire and Blood... the dragon awakes... the "dragon" being Rhaegar's bastard son, Jon Snow, from his funeral pyre. And either Stannis's sword Lightbringer will *become* the real thing by this sacrifice, or Jon Snow's own Longclaw will become the true Lightbringer, and in either case he will be the one who drives back the Others and brings a permanent balance to the world and to the seasons so that summer and winter once again alternate once a year, as they should do. Whether he loses his life (again, and this time there is no comeback) or actually lives to see that there is truly no longer a need for a Watch, or becomes the new Stark of Winterfell and possibly more, is not certain. However I do not think Jon Snow will marry Daenerys, because by then he will know his heritage but has been brought up with all the taboos against incest, and knows that it is cursed by gods and men - and, given the history of madness in the Targaryen family, it really should not be perpetuated.

I could imagine Shireen surviving the whole thing. And possibly being truly cured of greyscale - as in, her face returning to normal. You don't set up an "incurable disease for which the best hope is for it to stop progressing and stabilise" as a major plot point in a story if you don't intend for someone, at some point, to actually be truly cured of it, and I think Shireen is the one. (Tyrion will simply turn out to be lucky enough not to have ever got it.)

[Aaronomus]

All I'm saying is if I were writing the books, I'd have Stannis win. Why? Because it's been set up so perfectly: he has the best claim, a ton of foreshadowing, he's a compelling anti-hero, and judging by this thread, it's the last thing readers would expect.

Regardless, I'm certain that he'll literally sit on the Iron Throne at some point, because Mel is just too damn confident about that; he may be deposed moments later, or he may simply be the Hand, but sooner or later, his ass will sit on that chair.

[David C. Hunter]

All I'm saying is if I were writing the books, I'd have Stannis win. Why? Because it's been set up so perfectly: he has the best claim, a ton of foreshadowing, he's a compelling anti-hero, and judging by this thread, it's the last thing readers would expect.

Regardless, I'm certain that he'll literally sit on the Iron Throne at some point, because Mel is just too damn confident about that; he may be deposed moments later, or he may simply be the Hand, but sooner or later, his ass will sit on that chair.

Look, I love Stannis. I would love for him to sit on the Iron Throne. He is probably going to be the main reason why the Northmen take back Winterfell from the Boltons and Freys. If it wasnt for him the Wall would be overrun with Widlings. I love his dry humor and his sense of duty, but he also has made mistakes too. The entire ordeal with Renly, burning of his own men. Sure, he was influenced by Mel, but mistakes usually get punished in ASOIAF, even if Stannis ends grows more empathic i.e. Jaime.

I do not see Stannis surviving. I hope he does and is at least Hand of the King to Jon or something. But the moment Rickon Stark and Jon Snow appear and Stannis tells them to bend the knee, chaos will insue. Now, if Stannis were wise, he would make an alliance with the Northmen in exchange for lands, titles and position (i.e. Hand of the King - probably marriages as well). But Stannnis would be in any position to negotiate. I just hope he doesnt become stubborn and tries to challenge their claim. if he does, then he will die and they will offer his entrails to the heartree, along with his Fire God Men.

I pretty much expect the Northmen to lose a lot of fans as Book six progresses.

[The Reckoner]

The talk of Stannis, Mel and the Lightbringer forging makes me wonder if Jon's going to get a sentient sword that contains Stannis's soul in an Arioch/Stormbringer sort of relationship.

[Monctonvike]

The talk of Stannis, Mel and the Lightbringer forging makes me wonder if Jon's going to get a sentient sword that contains Stannis's soul in an Arioch/Stormbringer sort of relationship.

...Maybe- Stannis has a vision of himself burning alive and Shireen has dreams of being eaten by a dragon. There are many theories out there that Dawn may be lighbringer that seems the most likely

[Darkbringer]

I think you are a little harsh on the Southrons. There have been plenty of tough southern soldiers, think of Courtney Penrose, Randyll Tarly, King Bob, all the Royces, lots. They aren't all whiny softies.

[David C. Hunter]

I think you are a little harsh on the Southrons. There have been plenty of tough southern soldiers, think of Courtney Penrose, Randyll Tarly, King Bob, all the Royces, lots. They aren't all whiny softies.

Wait til the Long Night comes....

[StormRhage]

Stannis Baratheon doesn't become a Northman, Northman become Stannis Baratheon (or try to anyway).

hehee :cool4:

[Arkash]

Regardless, I'm certain that he'll literally sit on the Iron Throne at some point, because Mel is just too damn confident about that; he may be deposed moments later, or he may simply be the Hand, but sooner or later, his ass will sit on that chair.

That I agree. Yes Mel has made mistakes, but it was often her twisting of a truth, so that Stannis will be the "King on the Iron Throne" I think is right.

But I see him more as the general leading the remaining forces against the White Walkers. He may never get to King's Landing but for one battle at least, he'll lead whatever will remain of Westeros. That's my theory anyway. ^^

[Quentyn Kartell]

Look, I love Stannis. I would love for him to sit on the Iron Throne. He is probably going to be the main reason why the Northmen take back Winterfell from the Boltons and Freys. If it wasnt for him the Wall would be overrun with Widlings. I love his dry humor and his sense of duty, but he also has made mistakes too. The entire ordeal with Renly, burning of his own men. Sure, he was influenced by Mel, but mistakes usually get punished in ASOIAF, even if Stannis ends grows more empathic i.e. Jaime.

I do not see Stannis surviving. I hope he does and is at least Hand of the King to Jon or something. But the moment Rickon Stark and Jon Snow appear and Stannis tells them to bend the knee, chaos will insue. Now, if Stannis were wise, he would make an alliance with the Northmen in exchange for lands, titles and position (i.e. Hand of the King - probably marriages as well). But Stannnis would be in any position to negotiate. I just hope he doesnt become stubborn and tries to challenge their claim. if he does, then he will die and they will offer his entrails to the heartree, along with his Fire God Men.

I pretty much expect the Northmen to lose a lot of fans as Book six progresses.

The Northmen can not take back Winterfell without Rickon. As long as the fArya is married to Ramsay, Winterfell is in the Bolton's hands by right. That's why the Manderlys are with the Boltons. The Freys are not Northmen. They are Rivermen. They hold their power through Edmure. In the end I think, especially with Tywin dead, that bonds will start to be broken.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

The Northmen can not take back Winterfell without Rickon. As long as the fArya is married to Ramsay, Winterfell is in the Bolton's hands by right. That's why the Manderlys are with the Boltons. The Freys are not Northmen. They are Rivermen. They hold their power through Edmure. In the end I think, especially with Tywin dead, that bonds will start to be broken.

I consider the Boltons toast. Their followers have their own agenda and allegiance to the Boltons is more or less a necessity of the moment. Manderly owes the Starks and Lady Dustin's hate for the Starks is mummery. All it needs is Ramsay and Roose's deaths. fArya of ffArya may return or not.

The topic was about Stannis becoming a Northman. With the Boltons gone, he might try his luck.

[Wyman Manderly's Meat Pies]

Stannis has said his place/battle is at the Wall. When he comes back to the Wall and finds out what they did to Jon, who basically would have been bring reinforcements to Stannis. Heads will roll and Bowen Marshs' should be the first.

Stannis has already threatened to name his own LC, after what they did, he will take control of the Nights Watch. The Night King come again.

It's cute that you don't think Bowen Marsh is already dead. Wun Wun would not let such a transgression pass. Wun Wun will have vengeance. Wun Wun will bathe in Marsh blood.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Wait til the Long Night comes....

The North won't do any better.

[tseka]

New lord of Dreadfort, why not?

Stannis' problem is that he can hardly change god's for the third time, and we don't know big crime burning weirwood is. But maybe he can become all for religious tolerance.

Isn't his reason for consulting with Melissandre to utilize her power anyway?

He remains agnostic as he "converts" to her religion.

Wouldn't be out-of-character for him to convert to the Old Gods for the sake of credibility in the North.