108 replies to this topic

[Villemo]

brashcandy, on 23 February 2012 - 07:54 PM, said:

To come back to your point about Sandor and hearts, what do you think is the relevance then of him saying he should have fucked Sansa bloody and ripped her heart out?

IIRC, there are only two person, of whom he says 'ripped his/her heart out': Gregor and Sansa.
I see here strong emotions and they both must are very important to Sandor.

Gregor- it is known (as someone perfectly says "Gregor the knight, Gregor the monster, Gregor my brother.
He has been the one to define my life, he was the one to create the Hound, the fearsome fighter that nothing could stop, except fire. He was the one to give me my face, and for all my life I let him be in charge, fueling the hatred, the anger that burned so hot inside me" - here's the link, and I loved it: http://towerofthehan...p30affc/05.html ) ans Sansa, which formed his too.

[MaryaStone]

R&R, I don't think Sandor is a vicious killer, vicious means evil , marked by deep ill will, malignant; deliberately harmful. Sandor is neither of these, he's just a very efficient killer but his blows are clean, he may cut down a person in two, but he doesn't torture or enjoy inflicting pain. He says killing is the sweetest thing there is but he doesn't refer to the pleasure he gets from causing physical pain but to the feeling of power, the high of battle and adrenaline. For someone who has been victimised to the level Sandor was at Gregor's hands, and who probably was scorned and bullied later because of his gruesome burns (imagine a pre-teen boy, alone in Lannister camps or training yards, ghastly disfigured as he was, I'm sure he wasn't treated kindly), feeling powerful must have become a necessity. If there's something he hates is weakness, being powerless and victimised. He hates victimisers two, first in the person of Gregor and then, as we see, in that of Joff torturing and humiliating Sansa.

The Elder Brother says to Brienne that Sandor fought but took no joy in victory, he even makes a very clear parallelism between him and his destrier, saying that war horses and warriors like the Hound are weapons, trained to fight and that's what Sandor does: fighting. Battles aren't like a Pressing Catch show, fighting in Westeros means killing or being killed, there's no middle ground.

Quote

"I know a little of this man, Sandor Clegane. He was Prince Joffrey's sworn shield for many a year, and even here we would hear tell of his deeds, both good and ill. If even half of what we heard was true, this was a bitter, tormented soul, a sinner who mocked both gods and men. He served, but found no pride in service. He fought, but took no joy in victory. He drank, to drown his pain in a sea of wine. He did not love, nor was he loved himself. It was hate that drove him. Though he committed many sins, he never sought forgiveness. Where other men dream of love, or wealth, or glory, this man Sandor Clegane dreamed of slaying his own brother, a sin so terrible it makes me shudder just to speak of it. Yet that was the bread that nourished him, the fuel that kept his fires burning. Ignoble as it was, the hope of seeing his brother's blood upon his blade was all this sad and angry creature lived for . . . and even that was taken from him, when Prince Oberyn of Dorne stabbed Ser Gregor with a poisoned spear."
"You sound as if you pity him," said Brienne.
"I did. You would have pitied him as well, if you had seen him at the end. I came upon him by the Trident, drawn by his cries of pain. He begged me for the gift of mercy, but I am sworn not to kill again. Instead, I bathed his fevered brow with river water, and gave him wine to drink and a poultice for his wound, but my efforts were too little and too late. The Hound died there, in my arms. You may have seen a big black stallion in our stables. That was his warhorse, Stranger. A blasphemous name. We prefer to call him Driftwood, as he was found beside the river. I fear he has his former master's nature."
The horse. She had seen the stallion, had heard it kicking, but she had not understood. Destriers were trained to kick and bite. In war they were a weapon, like the men who rode them. Like the Hound. "It is true, then," she said dully. "Sandor Clegane is dead."
"He is at rest."

I think these words are not casual and much less when said by a former warrior now turned religious. Sandor fought and served, he was somebody else's (the Lannisters') weapon and did their dirty work. He was just one of many men who had dirty hands so that their lords could keep pretences and seem dignified. This reminds me of Vary's riddle,the one he says in the show's trailer where he says sell-swords are used by their masters to kill whomever they choose, that their masters play at being gods, all mighty and powerful , while they have others do their killing for them.

Joff, Ramsay and Gregor enjoy torture and death, Tywin and Littlefinger benefit from death, thousands of people's deaths don't deter Stannis, Robert or Dany when they are determined to fulfill their dreams of power. Even tragically disowned Theon has innocent children killed for his own gain and all the Greyjoys are unrepentant reavers and killers and so are the dothraki, while Tyrion, supposedly a good guy , commits the ultimate crime in Westeros view: kinslaying, a crime which is so vile, according to the EB, that it makes him shudder. Kinslaying is a crime Sandor hasn't brought himself to commit yet (although he dreams of it), as we could see when he didn't aim at Gregor's unprotected head during their fight at the Hand's tourney. Tyrion took his revenge on Tywin while Sandor didn't take his on Gregor.

I really can't understand so much fuss about the Hound's kills in such a context. He's neither a saint nor a monster, just a sinner so disillusioned with life and the concepts of goodness, justice and honour in general that he refuses to respect gods or men who don't even flinch when they witness so much misery or even take advantage of it.

Quote

According to The Disappearance of Childhood by Neil Postman, the Christian Church of the Middle Ages considered the age of accountability, when a person could be tried and even executed as an adult, to be age 7.

The quote above  may give us some light on how to judge Mycah's death according to moral codes more similar to the ones applied in the context of the novels than our 21st century ones. The queen, whom Sandor owed obedience, ordered Mycah's death for attacking a crown prince. I think the Hound was no more guilty than sir Ilyn whenever he's ordered to execute anyone. They are just weapons.

In the extract quoting the elder brother, we see how Sandor asks for mercy, that mercy that he demanded from Arya and didn't get . Now he gets it from a former killer and sinner, like himself, who gives him water, like the water he gave to the other dying soldier. Maybe it takes a sinner to know the value of mercy and to find mercy in their heart, not a self-righteous person who judges themselves fair and just when they aren't free of sin either. Sandor only gets comfort from the EB and from Sansa, that unfairly underrated character who shows such admirable qualities as forgiveness, compassion and mercy.

I have thought about Arya's refusal to give Sandor the gift of mercy and I don' think she refused because she thought he didn't deserve it, but because she had travelled with him and she had realised, though grudgingly, and possibly only at a nearly subconscious level ( he disappeared from her list) that he was not an intrinsically bad man, but just a product of a cruel world and no more a monster than many others. Perhaps she saw in him what she could become in the future. She had conflicting opinions and feelings about him, so she couldn't bring herself to kill him, not even for mercy.

Villemo, on 24 February 2012 - 02:32 AM, said:

IIRC, there are only two person, of whom he says 'ripped his/her heart out': Gregor and Sansa.
I see here strong emotions and they both must are very important to Sandor.

Gregor- it is known (as someone perfectly says "Gregor the knight, Gregor the monster, Gregor my brother.
He has been the one to define my life, he was the one to create the Hound, the fearsome fighter that nothing could stop, except fire. He was the one to give me my face, and for all my life I let him be in charge, fueling the hatred, the anger that burned so hot inside me" - here's the link, and I loved it: http://towerofthehan...p30affc/05.html ) ans Sansa, which formed his too.

It seems that the goodness that Sansa represents and the love he's started to feel for her is as strong as the only motivation that has kept him alive and given him his will to survive : his hatred of Gregor.

Sansa and Gregor: love and hate, the two highlights in Sandor's life; the two forces that define him and his fate, or rather the path he'll take to forge his destiny. Sandor is at rest, but for how long?

Edited by MaryaStone, 24 February 2012 - 06:39 AM.

[aluin]

Very touching post again! I read this "He is at rest." in English for the first time, its more meaningful like this.. I generally like the translation in my language, its really good, but there are few things like this one that surprise me

Someone mention age of Sandor is about 30 or something, maybe it was you Marya.. I don't remember.. But I think this is not correct..I think its about 22-25 not more.. He cant be the same age as Catelin or Cersei.. He is younger for sure.. Beric Dondarion in AGOT is 22 IIRC.. (Please correct me if I am wrong) I think the age difference between Sandor and Sansa is about 12 years, and actually its very good difference even in nowadays.. Someone said that he is too old and she is too young for a romance.. Yes, but she was too young to marry Tyrion, and they still married them,.Its medieval, there are no universities to go, no hanging out with friends and boyfriends to the clubs, changing jobs, traveling, pleasure-seeking .. Its about a times where girl getting her period is already ready to be taken, and if she is not at least betrothed than its even more inappropriate and she is in danger..

Edited by aluin, 24 February 2012 - 05:14 AM.

[Villemo]

aluin, on 24 February 2012 - 05:10 AM, said:

Someone mention age of Sandor is about 30 or something, maybe it was you Marya.. I don't remember.. But I think this is not correct..I think its about 22-25 not more..

IMO he is about 30 - we know only that:
- Greg is 5 years older than Sandor
- Gregor was knight when he was 17. Gregor was knighted by Rhaegar, and Rhaegar died in 283, so probably he was knight in 283
- during Sack of KL Gregor was 17 and it was 283, and Greg was 17 years old, IRRC
- and wiki said about "a Game of Thrones" The novel begins in the year 298 AL (After Landing) and continues for many months, probably into the early months of 299 AL.
aCoK: The novel spans most of the year 299 After the Landing
aSoS: The novel begins in the final months of 299 After the Landing and carries on into the year 300 AL

So, if Gregor in 283 was 17 years old, he was born in 266, then Sandor was born in 271. And in GoT he was 27, in aCoK he was 28 ans in aSoS he was 29 years old.

But math isn't my strong site, so maybe i'm wrong

[Rapsie]

Villemo, on 24 February 2012 - 05:52 AM, said:

So, if Gregor in 283 was 17 years old, he was born in 266, then Sandor was born in 271. And in GoT he was 27, in aCoK he was 28 ans in aSoS he was 29 years old.

But math isn't my strong site, so maybe i'm wrong

ACOK goes from January to roughly September, but ASOS only goes from September to about February (perhaps a bit further like March or April in Sansa's chapters). I think the end of ADWD is around September.

[MaryaStone]

aluin   , I also think he's about 27 in the first book, 5 years younger than Gregor, who is probably about Jaime's age or perhaps a couple of years younger. Sandor was 12 during the sacking of KL and Gregor 17, as people have said in their posts. Now that I think of it, it gives me the chills that he raped Elia and killed her children when he was so young. Well, he maimed Sandor's face and didn't kill him because he was stopped by 3 men, so it shouldn't surprise us what he did some years later.

I thought Littlefinger was about Jaime's age, in his early thirties, but someone mentioned he was younger, thirtyish then, but I can't remember that. He was a bit younger than Cat but not much, that's all I can remember, not his exact age. Maybe someone else can help us here.

Anyway, Sandor is about 12, or 13 years older than Sansa, not older than that. That's not a shocking age difference and hardly unusal in the context of the story. Well, it may be just me, but if we did away with all the obstacles that make their relationship 'impossible' (in theory), where would the drama be? Sandor being 12 years older is not the main obstacle, it would bother me if he had leered at her and groped her like Joff and Littlefinger. His feelings for her are clean and beautiful. If he starts to feel attracted to her physically when he notices she has started to look like a woman grown, that's something he can't help, no more than Sansa can control her fantasies about him. He doesn't make sexual advances on her, he never leers at her or she would say so ( she says so about other characters).

It's just unfortunate that two people who can connect in such a significant way (despite all the circumstances which should have prevented it) should have met in the wrong place, at the wrong time and on the wrong side (Stark/Lannister). Against all odds they connected, they cared for each other and they are always on each other's mind. This can hardly be ignored and it seems very much the stuff of love songs. If it isn't love, it resembles it very much!

Edited by MaryaStone, 24 February 2012 - 06:24 AM.

[voodooqueen126]

aluin, on 24 February 2012 - 05:10 AM, said:

Very touching post again! I read this "He is at rest." in English for the first time, its more meaningful like this.. I generally like the translation in my language, its really good, but there are few things like this one that surprise me

Someone mention age of Sandor is about 30 or something, maybe it was you Marya.. I don't remember.. But I think this is not correct..I think its about 22-25 not more.. He cant be the same age as Catelin or Cersei.. He is younger for sure.. Beric Dondarion in AGOT is 22 IIRC.. (Please correct me if I am wrong) I think the age difference between Sandor and Sansa is about 12 years, and actually its very good difference even in nowadays.. Someone said that he is too old and she is too young for a romance.. Yes, but she was too young to marry Tyrion, and they still married them,.Its medieval, there are no universities to go, no hanging out with friends and boyfriends to the clubs, changing jobs, traveling, pleasure-seeking .. Its about a times where girl getting her period is already ready to be taken, and if she is not at least betrothed than its even more inappropriate and she is in danger..

He was born in 271 apparently.

[Gala]

MaryaStone, on 24 February 2012 - 06:10 AM, said:

I also think he's about 27 in the first book, 5 years younger than Gregor, who is probably about Jaime's age or perhaps a couple of years younger. Sandor was 12 during the sacking of KL and Gregor 17, as people have said in their posts, now that I think of it, it gives me the chills that he raped Elia and killed her children when he was so young. Well, he maimed Sandor's face and didn't kill him because he was stopped by 3 men, so it shouldn't surprise us what he did some years later.

I though Littlefinger was about Jaime's age, in his early thierties, but someone mentioned he was younger, thirtyish then, but I can't remember that. He was a bit younger than Cat but not much, that's all I can remember, not his exact age. Maybe someone else can help us here.

Anyway, Sandor is about 12, or 13 years older than Sansa, not older than that. That's not a shocking age difference and hardly unusal in the context of the story. Well, it maybe just me, but if we did away with all the obstacles that make their relationship 'impossible' (in theory), where would the drama be? Sandor being 12 years younger is not the main obstacle, it would bother me if he had leered at har and groped her like Joff and Littlefinger. His feelings for her are clean and beautiful. If he starts to feel attracted to her physically when he notices she has started to look like a woman grown, that's something he can't help, no more than Sansa can control her fantasies about him. He doesn't make sexual advances on her, he never leers at her or she would say so ( she says about other characters).

It's just unfortunate that two people who can connect in such a significant way (despite all the circumstances which should have prevented it) should have met in the wrong place, at the wrong time and on the wrong side (Stark/Lannister). Agaist all others they connected, they cared for each other and they are always on each other's mind. This can hardly be ignored and it seems very much the stuff of love songs. If it isn't love, it resembles it so very much!

Another wonderful post. I agree with you 100%. It seems he sees her becoming a women (IIRC he said he was watching her during their trip to KL in Kingsroad, which shows that he was interested in her then, not necessarily in physical man's way), but later, when she starts to notice how male people (let's call them that way, no intention to offend here) look at her (squires for example), it seems Sandor also notices that she is becoming a woman, and an attractive one. There is nothing he could do, simply notice that as many others, but he really never, as you say, "makes sexual advances on her". It seems it's more than just sexual attraction to me. IMHO

[Xray the Enforcer]

[mod] Due to yet another incident where someone posted content (now deleted) that we have specifically and repeatedly asked this mini-community not to do, the mod/admin team has decided to close this series of threads. Any further in-depth discussion of Sandor's motivations or the Sansa/Sandor dynamic should be done at one of the internet communities dedicated to the topic. Thank you. [/mod]

Edited by Xray the Enforcer, 24 February 2012 - 07:50 AM.