108 replies to this topic

[brashcandy]

childofsummer, on 23 February 2012 - 10:50 AM, said:

Computer is throwing a tantrum.  Grr.



Starbird, you're right, it must frustrate him that she doesn't confide in him, but why would he reasonably expect her to?  His official loyalty is to Joffrey.  I don't think he's annoyed by the lies, so much, because he himself has said she's a rotten liar.  He understands that she has to lie in order to survive, though.  Her lies about loving Joffrey with all her heart and about her brother's and father's treasons are absolutely necessary if she doesn't want to end up with her head on a spike.

Yeah, for some reason Sandor doesn't strike you as the person you would want to bring your troubles to, now does he But it's interesting that this is the way their relationship started out, with him confiding the deep dark secret of his burns, and then telling her he'd kill her if she told anyone. It's like, jeez Sandor, if you didn't want anyone to know, why tell? Was Sandor simply telling Sansa the story as a cautionary tale because he saw a young girl about to be eaten alive, or was he also reaching out for some kind of comfort and relief from keeping the truth hidden for so long?

Quote

@ Marya, re the crick in the neck - how tall is Sansa?  I've always pictured her as sort of average female height, and when her growth is mentioned, it says she has shot up at least a couple of inches while in KL.

Yes, Sansa is tall, so I don't expect it would be too much of a problem. But Sandor has already shown he has no problem kneeling to her level, although I expect now that he has this thigh injury it might be difficult. In either case, I've always pictured him lifting her up somehow..

[childofsummer]

brashcandy, on 23 February 2012 - 11:59 AM, said:

Yeah, for some reason Sandor doesn't strike you as the person you would want to bring your troubles to, now does he But it's interesting that this is the way their relationship started out, with him confiding the deep dark secret of his burns, and then telling her he'd kill her if she told anyone. It's like, jeez Sandor, if you didn't want anyone to know, why tell? Was Sandor simply telling Sansa the story as a cautionary tale because he saw a young girl about to be eaten alive, or was he also reaching out for some kind of comfort and relief from keeping the truth hidden for so long?



Yes, Sansa is tall, so I don't expect it would be too much of a problem. But Sandor has already shown he has no problem kneeling to her level, although I expect now that he has this thigh injury it might be difficult. In either case, I've always pictured him lifting her up somehow..

Well, he was drunk, and we all know that there's truth at the bottom of the wine bottle, right?     I also think it was absolutely unbearable for him to listen to her idealistic descriptions of true knights and to know that (in his mind) those dreams would be shattered sooner rather than later (Joff, Gregor).  He felt like he had to say something, something that would be powerful enough to shake her out of the fairy-tale land of knights and songs and bring home the message that there are bad people in the world, no matter how nice their armor or how beguiling their smiles.

[brashcandy]

childofsummer, on 23 February 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

Well, he was drunk, and we all know that there's truth at the bottom of the wine bottle, right?     I also think it was absolutely unbearable for him to listen to her idealistic descriptions of true knights and to know that (in his mind) those dreams would be shattered sooner rather than later (Joff, Gregor).  He felt like he had to say something, something that would be powerful enough to shake her out of the fairy-tale land of knights and songs and bring home the message that there are bad people in the world, no matter how nice their armor or how beguiling their smiles.

I agree, but he didn't have to tell her his story. He put his own personal history on the line there, something that clearly matters to him, since he threatens to kill her if she tells anyone. I think subconsciously he was looking to release that burden, and somehow sensed that he could trust Sansa.

[childofsummer]

brashcandy, on 23 February 2012 - 12:23 PM, said:

I agree, but he didn't have to tell her his story. He put his own personal history on the line there, something that clearly matters to him, since he threatens to kill her if she tells anyone. I think subconsciously he was looking to release that burden, and somehow sensed that he could trust Sansa.

True, but she only touched his shoulder, showing compassion and maybe a symbolic connection, after he told the story.  I think there was an element of wanting to tell someone and sensing that she might be the right person to tell.  I also think he was casting around for the one thing that might shake her out of her dream, and the burn story was the only thing he thought would accomplish that.  Moreover, I think he wanted her to know that he had been like her, once, and had gotten terribly hurt for it.

[brashcandy]

childofsummer, on 23 February 2012 - 12:30 PM, said:

True, but she only touched his shoulder, showing compassion and maybe a symbolic connection, after he told the story.  I think there was an element of wanting to tell someone and sensing that she might be the right person to tell.  I also think he was casting around for the one thing that might shake her out of her dream, and the burn story was the only thing he thought would accomplish that.  Moreover, I think he wanted her to know that he had been like her, once, and had gotten terribly hurt for it.

Yes, I agree. There were two elements in play: his desire to tell someone and his recognition that she needed to hear this. Of course, it doesn't go the way he was expecting Sansa doesn't freak out, but reaches out to offer her sympathy and tell him his brother was no true knight. The Hound probably figured he would have to take her sobbing and traumatised back to her room (imagine if Jeyne Poole had heard this story), but Sansa is only worried about his trauma and forgets her fear.

[adreamer]

I wonder why this scene was changed in s1 so that LF was telling Sansa the story?

[childofsummer]

brashcandy, on 23 February 2012 - 12:40 PM, said:

Yes, I agree. There were two elements in play: his desire to tell someone and his recognition that she needed to hear this. Of course, it doesn't go the way he was expecting Sansa doesn't freak out, but reaches out to offer her sympathy and tell him his brother was no true knight. The Hound probably figured he would have to take her sobbing and traumatised back to her room (imagine if Jeyne Poole had heard this story), but Sansa is only worried about his trauma and forgets her fear.

I just thought of another angle.  Is he specifically trying to open her eyes to the truth about Joffrey here?  His comment about her not expecting Joff to escort her, paired with the Gregor story, seems aimed at telling her that Joff is not a true knight.  Or maybe that Gregor shouldn't have been knighted, and neither should Joff.  Gregor had younger siblings and abused them, and we see more of what Joffrey is like later on with the way he treats Tommen and the way he likes seeing death-matches.  The parallel is startling, even down to the detail that Joff is very tall for his age.  (In AGoT, Robb is peeved because Joff, though substantially younger, is taller than he is.)

[brashcandy]

childofsummer, on 23 February 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

I just thought of another angle.  Is he specifically trying to open her eyes to the truth about Joffrey here?  His comment about her not expecting Joff to escort her, paired with the Gregor story, seems aimed at telling her that Joff is not a true knight.  Or maybe that Gregor shouldn't have been knighted, and neither should Joff.  Gregor had younger siblings and abused them, and we see more of what Joffrey is like later on with the way he treats Tommen and the way he likes seeing death-matches.  The parallel is startling, even down to the detail that Joff is very tall for his age.  (In AGoT, Robb is peeved because Joff, though substantially younger, is taller than he is.)

Hmmm, interesting. The entire lesson could be applied to knights and princes in general. He does hint to her that Joff isn't the gallant type who would put himself out to escort a girl back, and then when she tries to find some small talk to make with him, he derides her empty words over Gregor. It's all about getting her to see what is in front of her, and to remove her rose coloured specs. She needed to see that Gregor's lance didn't just happen to find Hugh of the Vale's weak spot etc etc. And also there was the whole irony of Prince Rhaegar being the one to knight Gregor. So even traditionally heroic, dashing princes can make serious errors in judgement.

adreamer, on 23 February 2012 - 12:43 PM, said:

I wonder why this scene was changed in s1 so that LF was telling Sansa the story?

Probably to bring LF directly into their storyline, and set up what looks to be a very tense and dangerous love triangle.

[Gala]

Childofsummer and Brashcandy, I agree with both. That's what I felt: he was both trying to help her to see the truth and trying to lessen his burden, intuitively sensing that Sansa is the kind of person, who can be trusted. And she immediately showed sympathy and understanding. I imagined that the threat to kill was made because he was confused about what he has done - he basically open his heart to some little girl, a stranger, which was out of his normal behavior.

I was glad to read the next day tournament, when Sandor helped Loras (IIRC it is Ned's chapter) and how Ned noticed that Sansa was anxious about the Hound, not Loras, but specifically about Sandor. Or am I imagine this?

Adreamer, I support your question and actually I was furious that they've changed that. It is not fair, it is important that it was he, who told her.

Edited by Gala, 23 February 2012 - 01:20 PM.

[childofsummer]

brashcandy, on 23 February 2012 - 01:11 PM, said:

Hmmm, interesting. The entire lesson could be applied to knights and princes in general. He does hint to her that Joff isn't the gallant type who would put himself out to escort a girl back, and then when she tries to find some small talk to make with him, he derides her empty words over Gregor. It's all about getting her to see what is in front of her, and to remove her rose coloured specs. She needed to see that Gregor's lance didn't just happen to find Hugh of the Vale's weak spot etc etc. And also there was the whole irony of Prince Rhaegar being the one to knight Gregor. So even traditionally heroic, dashing princes can make serious errors in judgement.

Just like Joffrey didn't "accidentally" cut open the pregnant cat?

[childofsummer]

Gala, on 23 February 2012 - 01:19 PM, said:

Childofsummer and Brashcandy, I agree with both. That's what I felt: he was both trying to help her to see the truth and trying to lessen his burden, intuitively sensing that Sansa is the kind of person, who can be trusted. And she immediately showed sympathy and understanding. I imagined that the threat to kill was made because he was confused about what he has done - he basically open his heart to some little girl, a stranger, which was out of his normal behavior.

Good point about the "what the *&^! have I told her" damage control.  

[Starbird]

childofsummer, on 23 February 2012 - 10:50 AM, said:

Starbird, you're right, it must frustrate him that she doesn't confide in him, but why would he reasonably expect her to?  His official loyalty is to Joffrey.  I don't think he's annoyed by the lies, so much, because he himself has said she's a rotten liar. He understands that she has to lie in order to survive, though.  Her lies about loving Joffrey with all her heart and about her brother's and father's treasons are absolutely necessary if she doesn't want to end up with her head on a spike.

Because he confided in her first. And he continues to tell her things he probably shouldn't as a Lannister man. But it's all one way. Granted, he's trying to educate her, but he's also active in deflecting blows. His official loyalty is to Joffrey, yes, but we know it shifts to Sansa over time. She never seems to realize this.

Yes, but not to him. They have enough time alone where she could tell him her real feelings on things, but she doesn't. She tells him he's awful and he's probably going to hell for what he's done, but she never says she's tired of lying about her family's treason, or that she can't stand being in KL another minute, or that she's afraid Joffrey's going to kill her. Saying that to anyone else would have been suicidally foolish, but she'd be safe telling Sandor. But she doesn't. So I conclude that there's either a lack of recognition of his feelings for her, or she doesn't fully trust him.

[Revan Baratheon]

No offense intended for any fans of this ship,but isnt Sandor around the same age as LF and tyrion(late 20s-early 30s) and therefore to old for her?Isnt it better to wait for a couple of years until sansa is say 18 or 19??Or for her to end up with someone closer to her age..

[childofsummer]

Starbird, on 23 February 2012 - 01:28 PM, said:

Because he confided in her first. And he continues to tell her things he probably shouldn't as a Lannister man. But it's all one way. Granted, he's trying to educate her, but he's also active in deflecting blows. His official loyalty is to Joffrey, yes, but we know it shifts to Sansa over time. She never seems to realize this.

Yes, but not to him. They have enough time alone where she could tell him her real feelings on things, but she doesn't. She tells him he's awful and he's probably going to hell for what he's done, but she never says she's tired of lying about her family's treason, or that she can't stand being in KL another minute, or that she's afraid Joffrey's going to kill her. Saying that to anyone else would have been suicidally foolish, but she'd be safe telling Sandor. But she doesn't. So I conclude that there's either a lack of recognition of his feelings for her, or she doesn't fully trust him.

Or she knows that telling him those things would put him in a situation where his feelings for her would directly conflict with his KG oath, and she doesn't want to do that to him.

He confided in her first, that's absolutely true.  But she hadn't sworn to defend a person or set of people against the family he "belongs to."  At first, I'm sure she doesn't trust him and isn't sure of his loyalty.  Later, when she's confident that he wouldn't let harm come to her, he's in the KG, and might feel obligated to tell if she lets him in on her escape plans.  He thinks oaths are worth something, after all.

[Starbird]

Revan Baratheon, on 23 February 2012 - 01:33 PM, said:

No offense intended for any fans of this ship,but isnt Sandor around the same age as LF and tyrion(late 20s-early 30s) and therefore to old for her?Isnt it better to wait for a couple of years until sansa is say 18 or 19??Or for her to end up with someone closer to her age..

Littlefinger is in his late 20's as of GOT. When Cat is brought to his brothel, she thinks that he's not yet 30. Granted, he seems older in the books, and the very fine Mr. Aiden Gillen's silver streaks add to that on the show.

Point being, everyone older than Joffrey is too old for her. I think Sandor's 15 years older than Sansa. Had the 5 year age gap happened, it wouldn't be so squicky but . . .   I can't help but age Sansa up to like 16 anyway so the age thing doesn't bother me.

[childofsummer]

Revan Baratheon, on 23 February 2012 - 01:33 PM, said:

No offense intended for any fans of this ship,but isnt Sandor around the same age as LF and tyrion(late 20s-early 30s) and therefore to old for her?Isnt it better to wait for a couple of years until sansa is say 18 or 19??Or for her to end up with someone closer to her age..

LF is Catelyn's age, or close to it, isn't he?  So that would put him in his late 30s/early 40s, which makes his perving after Sansa even more squicky.  I think most of us either age Sansa up in our minds, or don't want SanSan to happen until she's older, or both.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

Revan Baratheon, on 23 February 2012 - 01:33 PM, said:

No offense intended for any fans of this ship,but isnt Sandor around the same age as LF and tyrion(late 20s-early 30s) and therefore to old for her?Isnt it better to wait for a couple of years until sansa is say 18 or 19??Or for her to end up with someone closer to her age..

Yes he starts off being 26 in Game of Thrones....and her age could be why nothing is really happening right now with them other than the platonic stuff so far

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

I'm of the minority that thinks he didn't see her as an adult but as a little girl....but i am not discounting something more in the future

[Buckwheat]

Revan Baratheon, on 23 February 2012 - 01:33 PM, said:

No offense intended for any fans of this ship,but isnt Sandor around the same age as LF and tyrion(late 20s-early 30s) and therefore to old for her?Isnt it better to wait for a couple of years until sansa is say 18 or 19??Or for her to end up with someone closer to her age..

Definitely. Tyrion is younger than Littlefinger, I think, about 25, Littlefinger is about 30 or 31 in the last book.

But where is Sandor's age stated? I do not remember any mention of his age in the books. In any way he is way too old for Sansa.

[brashcandy]

At the end of the day, shipping Sansa with another person because it's more age appropriate doesn't make sense to me. GRRM has established a serious romantic connection between her and the Hound and that's where my interest is. The fact that he hasn't pushed them into a sexual relationship or anything yet is what should be important. He's sensitive to the age difference and taking time accordingly to develop the relationship.