108 replies to this topic

[Starbird]

childofsummer, on 23 February 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

Or she knows that telling him those things would put him in a situation where his feelings for her would directly conflict with his KG oath, and she doesn't want to do that to him.

He confided in her first, that's absolutely true.  But she hadn't sworn to defend a person or set of people against the family he "belongs to."  At first, I'm sure she doesn't trust him and isn't sure of his loyalty.  Later, when she's confident that he wouldn't let harm come to her, he's in the KG, and might feel obligated to tell if she lets him in on her escape plans.  He thinks oaths are worth something, after all.

Ehhh. Mayyyyybe but she never thinks about his vows so I'm inclined to believe they're not a motivating factor. It's frustrating that we don't get long detailed passages on her thoughts about him. She touches on him saving her here and there but she never digs deeper for why he saves her. Yet she puts her trust in Dontos and not Sandor, and that makes me want to   .

[Rapsie]

Revan Baratheon, on 23 February 2012 - 01:33 PM, said:

No offense intended for any fans of this ship,but isnt Sandor around the same age as LF and tyrion(late 20s-early 30s) and therefore to old for her?Isnt it better to wait for a couple of years until sansa is say 18 or 19??Or for her to end up with someone closer to her age..

Yes he is too old for her at the moment.....bloody five year gap where are you when we need you!! Also I think GRRM messed up his timeline badly and more time should have passed by now. That aside, there are much better pairings for Sansa: Aegon, Pod etc.

The only reason I like the idea of them as a couple is that it has been hinted at since the first book, I like both characters and they seem from the text to like each other. Personally I always thought she and Domeric Bolton sounded like a good match!

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

I like Sandor's character, I liked his relationship with Sansa in the books but  same as Revan Baratheon do not want him to end with Sansa and for them to become a permanent couple. To be honest I don't have a particular match I would like Sansa to have just some who I would rather not like Tyrion. Still it would be interesting for Sandor Clegane to become relevant again to the Sansa storyline. I am mostly curious to see how much he has changed.

Edited by Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren, 23 February 2012 - 01:55 PM.

[childofsummer]

Starbird, on 23 February 2012 - 01:46 PM, said:

Ehhh. Mayyyyybe but she never thinks about his vows so I'm inclined to believe they're not a motivating factor. It's frustrating that we don't get long detailed passages on her thoughts about him. She touches on him saving her here and there but she never digs deeper for why he saves her. Yet she puts her trust in Dontos and not Sandor, and that makes me want to   .

Yes, the whole trusting Dontos thing is maddening.  The sloppy kisses are even worse.  However, waltzing up to Sandor and saying, "hey, I'd really like to get out of here, wanna come?" wouldn't have flown anyway (before the battle and subsequent offer) because what, realistically, could she have offered him?  I'm putting aside the love conquers all glasses here (rrriiiip... wince) and looking at the practical side.  She could have asked him to deliver her to Robb, and... then what?  She knew Rob and her mother wouldn't have married her to Sandor because her marriage would have been far too politically valuable, especially in the middle of a war.  So he'd be left with the probability of some sort of unspecified reward.  That, added to his longstanding Lannister ties and the certainty that if they were caught escaping it would mean both of their heads, was enough to give her pause.
(replaces rose colored glasses and sighs over their inevitable future reunion... GET WRITING, GRRM!)

Edited by childofsummer, 23 February 2012 - 02:01 PM.

[brashcandy]

Starbird, on 23 February 2012 - 01:46 PM, said:

Ehhh. Mayyyyybe but she never thinks about his vows so I'm inclined to believe they're not a motivating factor. It's frustrating that we don't get long detailed passages on her thoughts about him. She touches on him saving her here and there but she never digs deeper for why he saves her. Yet she puts her trust in Dontos and not Sandor, and that makes me want to   .

I know, it's frustrating, but she did get to know him as Joffrey's dog, so thinking that she could trust him with her inner thoughts and feelings would have taken time. I think Sansa struggled in the beginning to get over the mindblock that Sandor isn't a "true knight" but is capable of worthwhile deeds, and she only grasps this realisation towards the end of ACOK. As for digging deeper into why Sandor is becoming a true knight for her, well I believe GRRM is deliberately trying to frustrate us . But still we do get hints that it's dawning on her, like the unkiss, the marriage bed dream and so on.

Edited by brashcandy, 23 February 2012 - 02:00 PM.

[MaryaStone]

Childofsummer:

Sansa is at least average height in the books, probably taller than average because she is said to be taller than her aunt Lysa or at least as tall as her. I mentioned the click in the neck because he's freakishly tall. I guess I can imagine the situation because my husband is much taller than me though I'm several cm taller than average height myself.

In the series Sansa is very tall ( 5' 9"), but Sandor is still much taller (6' 6").

Link to the lasts posts in the last thread in case you missed them:

http://asoiaf.wester...8/page__st__400

Edited by MaryaStone, 24 February 2012 - 04:49 AM.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

brashcandy, on 23 February 2012 - 01:57 PM, said:

I know, it's frustrating, but she did get to know him as Joffrey's dog, so thinking that she could trust him with her inner thoughts and feelings would have taken time. I think Sansa struggled in the beginning to get over the mindblock that Sandor isn't a "true knight" but is capable of worthwhile deeds, and she only grasps this realisation towards the end of ACOK. As for digging deeper into why Sandor is becoming a true knight for her, well I believe GRRM is deliberately trying to frustrate us . But still we do get hints that it's dawning on her, like the unkiss, the marriage memory and so on.

I think she was afraid of possible rape, she knew that there was good in him but she couldn't perfectly trust him, she also had aspects of his personality that scared her somewhat. That was one of her motivations of not going with Sandor out of KL but I could be wrong.

Edited by Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren, 23 February 2012 - 02:02 PM.

[brashcandy]

Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren, on 23 February 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

I think she was afraid of possible rape, she knew that there was good in him but she couldn't perfectly trust him, she also had aspects of his personality that scared her somewhat. That was one of her motivations of not going with Sandor out of KL but I could be wrong.

I would agree that she was disquieted by him, but I don't think she ever feared rape or an assault nearing that. She really did come to value him as a protector, even somewhat as a strange friend it seems, but his harshness and anger was always off putting.

Edited by brashcandy, 23 February 2012 - 02:10 PM.

[Gala]

Starbird, on 23 February 2012 - 01:46 PM, said:

Ehhh. Mayyyyybe but she never thinks about his vows so I'm inclined to believe they're not a motivating factor. It's frustrating that we don't get long detailed passages on her thoughts about him. She touches on him saving her here and there but she never digs deeper for why he saves her. Yet she puts her trust in Dontos and not Sandor, and that makes me want to   .

It seems she does not realize his feeling actually, until the day he comes for her during the battle. Remember her thinking that the way he, Sandor, looks at her makes her uncomfortable (when Sandor comes for her to her room the day Joffrey ordered to beat her breasts, f*ing bastard, sorry), it seems she doesn't understand that this man is attracted to her as man, you know…After all those songs and legends she liked and read, she didn't recognize that man's attraction.

After the battle night, she understands that he likes her, but not earlier.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

brashcandy, on 23 February 2012 - 02:10 PM, said:

I would agree that she was disquieted by him, but I don't think she ever feared rape or an assault nearing that. She really did come to value him as a protector, even somewhat as a strange friend it seems, but his harshness and anger was always off putting.

I think she was both afraid of him and also was the person she trusted more while she was in K.L. Why do you think she didn't go with him? Was it only because she was afraid that the Lannisters might catch them? Sandor's behavior was not the most stable. I am genuinely curious of other interpretations actually as I interpreted Sansa not going to him partially because she couldn't fully trust how he would act while they were on the run, now that could be a wrong choice on her behalf.

Edited by Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren, 23 February 2012 - 02:19 PM.

[Starbird]

Sigh. Pout. I know, it would have been unrealistic for Sansa to ask Sandor to steal her out of KL, especially when he himself didn't really have a reason to leave until the BBB, but she maintains her facade with him so resolutely that . . . gah! I want her to tell him all of her feelings! I'm afraid, I'm in pain, your face isn't that scary, something!

As for other matches for Sansa: Only Sandor.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

Gala, on 23 February 2012 - 02:12 PM, said:

It seems she does not realize his feeling actually, until the day he comes for her during the battle. Remember her thinking that the way he, Sandor, looks at her makes her uncomfortable (when Sandor comes for her to her room the day Joffrey ordered to beat her breasts, f*ing bastard, sorry), it seems she doesn't understand that this man is attracted to her as man, you know…After all those songs and legends she liked and read, she didn't recognize that man's attraction.

After the battle night, she understands that he likes her, but not earlier.

I took her "discomfort" of how he was looking at her more of a fear over WHY she was being summoned by Joff.  "The hOund was always rough-tongued, but something in the way he looked at her filled her with dread.  Had Joffrey found out about her meetings with Ser Dontos?"

Then she asks him "Tell me what i've done"

so he must've been looking at her in a way that implied he KNEW something bad was going to happen to her.  It wasnt him that made her uncomfortable....it was the fear of what awaited her

[brashcandy]

Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren, on 23 February 2012 - 02:13 PM, said:

I think she was both afraid of him and also was the person she trusted more while she was in K.L. Why do you think she didn't go with him? Was it only because she was afraid that the Lannisters might catch them? Sandor's behavior was not the most stable. I am genuinely curious of other interpretations actually as I interpreted Sansa not going to him partially because she couldn't fully trust how he would act while they were on the run, now that could be a wrong choice on her behalf.

Yeah, I think it was his crazy behaviour that night. If he had acted a lot more rationally and had perhaps offered her a clear idea of how they would get out and where they would go, she would have likely gone. However, as we've already deduced, the reason he doesn't do this is because he was offering boyfriend protection, not simply bodyguard protection.

[Starbird]

Gala, on 23 February 2012 - 02:12 PM, said:

It seems she does not realize his feeling actually, until the day he comes for her during the battle. Remember her thinking that the way he, Sandor, looks at her makes her uncomfortable (when Sandor comes for her to her room the day Joffrey ordered to beat her breasts, f*ing bastard, sorry), it seems she doesn't understand that this man is attracted to her as man, you know…After all those songs and legends she liked and read, she didn't recognize that man's attraction.

After the battle night, she understands that he likes her, but not earlier.

My reading of this differs from yours. She trusted him to protect her but I don't think it ever (and still hasn't) sunk in that he likes her in a romantic way. There are 2 times, I think, that he alludes to it:

1) on the serpentine, when he's drunk, and makes those charming comments about her body. He asks for a song (innuendo? I think so) and, totally missing the point, she says she'll gladly sing for him.
2) in her room, when's he's again drunk, and he tries to talk her into leaving with him - yet he offers her protection because that's his best selling point

ETA: I think she'll eventually make the connection. She's starting to feel an attraction to him that has nothing to do with protection and, once she learns a little more about how men express their interest (aside from asking for non-dutiful kisses, blech), she'll realize he wasn't just being strangely accommodating.

The look makes her uncomfortable, I believe, because she knows she's in trouble and Sandor knows Joffrey's really mad about something that had nothing to do with her, yet she's going to have to suffer for it. He didn't leer at her or anything.

ETA: what CC said

Edited by Starbird, 23 February 2012 - 02:27 PM.

[childofsummer]

MaryaStone, on 23 February 2012 - 01:58 PM, said:

Childofsummer:

Sansa is at least average height in the books, probably taller than average because she is said to be taller than her aunt Lysa or at least as tall as her. I mentioned the click in the neck because he's freakishly tall. I guess I can imagine the situation because my husband is much taller than me though I'm several cm taller than averagage height myself.

In the series Sansa is very tall ( 5' 9"), but Sandor is still much taller (6' 6").

Man, I feel short.  My husband is just under a foot taller than I am, though, and we manage, so I have great hopes that Sansa will do just fine with Sandor.  

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

So yea....the first sentence to that chapter is:  "The longer you keep him waiting, the worse it will go for you," Sandor Clegane warned her.

So she was definitely afraid of what awaited her and had nothing to do with him making her uncomfortable

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

brashcandy, on 23 February 2012 - 02:21 PM, said:

Yeah, I think it was his crazy behaviour that night. If he had acted a lot more rationally and had perhaps offered her a clear idea of how they would get out and where they would go, she would have likely gone. However, as we've already deduced, the reason he doesn't do this is because he was offering boyfriend protection, not simply bodyguard protection.

Yep. If she had gone with him, do you think that Sandor would behave? He probably recognizes his own impulses and is afraid of doing something he would later regret. I theorize that he could try to have some boyfriend moment with her but he wouldn't assault her. I see Sansa rejecting his advances actually as I don't see her being comfortable with it. Sandor will probably become angry then but he probably won't do something he would later regret.

Edited by Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren, 23 February 2012 - 02:37 PM.

[Rapsie]

Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren, on 23 February 2012 - 02:13 PM, said:

I think she was both afraid of him and also was the person she trusted more while she was in K.L. Why do you think she didn't go with him? Was it only because she was afraid that the Lannisters might catch them? Sandor's behavior was not the most stable. I am genuinely curious of other interpretations actually as I interpreted Sansa not going to him partially because she couldn't fully trust how he would act while they were on the run, now that could be a wrong choice on her behalf.

I think there maybe a number of reasons. Earlier in the evening Cersei had two maidservants and a stable boy executed by Ser Ilyne for trying to escape. Cersei also threatened Sansa that Ser Ilyne might take her head, so I think that may have been part of it.

Then there is the fact that he is drunk and not putting his proposal in the best possible way. Also the knife to the throat....

Basically if he ever sees her again, there is a big apology due for his douche behaviour!

[Rapsie]

Double post! Sorry!

Edited by Rapsie, 23 February 2012 - 02:37 PM.

[brashcandy]

Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren, on 23 February 2012 - 02:32 PM, said:

Yep. If she had gone with him, do you think that Sandor would behave? He probably recognizes his own impulses and is afraid of doing something he would later regret. I theorize that he could try to have some boyfriend moment with her but he wouldn't assault her. I see Sansa rejecting his advances actually as I don't see her being comfortable with it.

Eventually, I think she would have formed a romantic interest in him. She is the one who comes up with the unkiss memory after all. Taking away all of Sandor's harshness and crass statements and burnt face, he comes close to representing her ideal man, and the man her father promised her: strong, brave and gentle. (add tall here too ) She's already noted that it's not his face that scares her so much as the anger in his eyes as well.

Being on the run would have necessitated him being on good behaviour. There's nothing like a manhunt out after you to put one off kisses and hugs. But if they had managed to reach a safe environment then it would have only been a matter of time.

Edited by brashcandy, 23 February 2012 - 02:42 PM.