267 replies to this topic

[Lady Blackfyre]

The thing is... we know next to nothing about the Faceless Men. I dearly hope Arya starts warging into that cat more often. It would be nice if she could listen to some private talks between the Kindly Man and the Waif.

[Argilac]

I'm interested in hearing some theories about how the Faceless Men go about determining an appropriate price. Does their ability to tell when someone is lying help them gauge how much wealth an individual has? Do they investigate anyone who tries to hire them?

[Light a wight tonight]

Apple Martini, on 23 February 2012 - 10:03 AM, said:

There's also a Gift of the Magi angle here. With a dragon's egg, Euron could theoretically display the wealth, status and power necessary to rule the ironborn. Kind of fitting if the Faceless Men had him fork over that status symbol in exchange for killing the previous ruler. The thing that would make Euron a compelling choice as a ruler had to be given up in exchange for giving him the chance to stake a claim to rule.

He would have given up the egg but still had enough wealth, etc, to gain the throne, so this doesn't work for me as the sacrifice. That would need to be something really meaningful.

With apologies to O. Henry, how about Gift of the Maegi?

[Light a wight tonight]

Double post. Drat!

Edited by Light a wight tonight, 23 February 2012 - 10:26 AM.

[Doran II]

Yeah i alsso don't think giving the egg looks like a sacrifice, sacrifice would be giving up something he holds dear, the egg doesn't seem to be enough of a sacrifice.

[Apple Martini]

Light a wight tonight, on 23 February 2012 - 10:24 AM, said:

He would have given up the egg but still had enough wealth, etc, to gain the throne, so this doesn't work for me as the sacrifice. That would need to be something really meaningful.

With apologies to O. Henry, how about Gift of the Maegi?

But we know that the ironborn don't have a high regard for gold and money. They respect firepower. I don't think Euron's money is what they'd be interested in, even though he had it.

Actually, him showing up with bucketloads of wealth to Pyke actually seems to support the idea that he gave up the dragon egg. He hired a Faceless Man to kill Balon but showed up with, apparently, most his financial wealth intact. So what else would he have paid with?

The damn dragon egg.

Seriously -- and no offense whatsoever to the OP -- this is so obvious in hindsight that I'm surprised it's only now being discussed.

Doran II, on 23 February 2012 - 10:32 AM, said:

Yeah i alsso don't think giving the egg looks like a sacrifice, sacrifice would be giving up something he holds dear, the egg doesn't seem to be enough of a sacrifice.

You don't think that something that is so rare it's nearly extinct, that can purchase ships and armies is something a person would "hold dear" or something they'd miss if they had to give it up?

Edited by Apple Martini, 23 February 2012 - 10:42 AM.

[the Remarkable Other]

Apple Martini, on 23 February 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

But we know that the ironborn don't have a high regard for gold and money. They respect firepower. I don't think Euron's money is what they'd be interested in, even though he had it.

Actually, him showing up with bucketloads of wealth to Pyke actually seems to support the idea that he gave up the dragon egg. He hired a Faceless Man to kill Balon but showed up with, apparently, most his financial wealth intact. So what else would he have paid with?

The damn dragon egg.

Seriously -- and no offense whatsoever to the OP -- this is so obvious in hindsight that I'm surprised it's only now being discussed.

His eye? Or maybe the tongues of his crew?

[sarah.jenice]

This is a great theory!

I've always wondered how Euron paid the FM if he did in fact hire them to kill Balon (as the vision from the Ghost of High Heart implies), and this makes a lot of sense.

Great job with backing it up, Apple Martini!

[Light a wight tonight]

the small other, on 23 February 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

His eye? Or maybe the tongues of his crew?

The fact that he gave Victarion the dusky woman suggests that he may have made a very personal sacrifice.

[Ygrain]

It does make sense. Of course, Euron could have paid with virtually everything else down to his manhood, but out of the little we know of him so far, the dragon egg is the most plausible candidate. - BTW, do we know about any other eggs around except this one and Dany's?

Light a wight tonight, on 23 February 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

The fact that he gave Victarion the dusky woman suggests that he may have made a very personal sacrifice.

Funny, I was just typing my answer when yours popped up... telepathy? :DD

[Tyler Snow]

Maybe the FM want a dragon of their own to take out Dany's dragons should the correct offer come across the table.

You'd think it would be cheaper to just invent a plane.

[Apple Martini]

Ygrain, on 23 February 2012 - 10:47 AM, said:

It does make sense. Of course, Euron could have paid with virtually everything else down to his manhood, but out of the little we know of him so far, the dragon egg is the most plausible candidate. - BTW, do we know about any other eggs around except this one and Dany's?

The last Targaryen dragon laid five eggs that didn't hatch. I myself like the idea that Dany's eggs are from this stash and not from Asshai like Illyrio claimed. Rhaegal could be from Aegon V's egg, Visersion could be Aerion's and Drogon could be Lord Butterwell's, etc. So there are at least two and up to five known eggs that may be unaccounted for, plus any number of eggs that one might find in Asshai. As extensively as Euron traveled, I don't see why he couldn't have acquired one, even if they command a much steeper price the further west one travels.

I added this theory to the Balon/Euron theory page in the Wiki.

Edited by Apple Martini, 23 February 2012 - 10:59 AM.

[Doran II]

Apple Martini, on 23 February 2012 - 10:59 AM, said:

snip

The egg's are something the he could put value on it, i don't think is something that he could put sentimental value
The story about the rich man make very clear that valuable stuff is not enough, they didn't asked him only his wealth, he ahd to give his daughter too, and that's a sentimental sacrifice. Im interpreting the expression "holds dear" as a sentimental value, English is not my native language so correct me if i'm worng.

[Recentiy03]

Good call OP, I was posting yesterday about Marwyn's connection to the FM and Jaqen H'ager's possible reasons for sticking around the Citadel...and sure, it could be that he has been unable to locate the secret vault...yet. Of course, the fact "Pate" was hanging around Marwyn, not just aimlessly, or perhaps gainfully, looking to find the dragon book, again seems to imply there is a connection between Marwyn and the Faceless Men. I don't know if it's likely that he is Moqorro--although 8 years in the East would seem to be enough time to learn how to be a FM if Arya is already well on her way--but there's something there nonetheless.

I know it's rather trivial, and perhaps more accurately impossible, to reduce things down to factions of "Ice" and "Fire" in such a complex world, but is it possible there is a (however weak) connection between the FM and R'hollar? The line about Aemon and Marwyn's blood being untrustworthy jumps to mind:

"Ask yourself why Aemon Targaryen was allowed to waste his life on the Wall, when by rights he should have been raised to Arch Maester. His BLOOD was why. He could not be trusted. No more then I can."

[Apple Martini]

Doran II, on 23 February 2012 - 11:19 AM, said:

The egg's are something the he could put value on it, i don't think is something that he could put sentimental value
The story about the rich man make very clear that valuable stuff is not enough, they didn't asked him only his wealth, he ahd to give his daughter too, and that's a sentimental sacrifice. Im interpreting the expression "holds dear" as a sentimental value, English is not my native language so correct me if i'm worng.

Which is why I said that it's possible that gave them the egg and something else. We don't know the entire price, but it makes perfect sense if the egg was part of it. Unless you think he actually tossed it in the ocean?

We know they ask for a lot of financial wealth. He came to Pyke overflowing with money; the suggestion is that he did not pay the Faceless Man with that or he wouldn't have still had so much of it. So what else did he possess that could be construed as wealth? The dragon egg. I think the egg does constitute something of "personal" value (tied to his own ambition), but even if you don't, it still works in a "wealth" context.

[The Storm Queen]

Nice theory!
Still the question remains what the FM want to do with the egg. My speculations...
a. keep it as some kind of insurance for the future
b. remove it from the "market". I assume that WMD are not good for their business because the FM neither want total war nor a "long peace". They benefit too much from the current power imbalance.
c. Hatch it and use its power as some kind of balancer in the case that Dany becomes an unipolar power in Westeros (again: bad for the business)

slightly off topic: Of how many actual and possible dragon (eggs) do we know and who owns them?
- Dany´s three dragon; only one under her command
- Euron´s dragon egg: Property of the FM?
- others (speculative): Dragons in Winterfell, the Wall or Dragonstone? The "Stone Dragon"?

Edited by The Storm Queen, 23 February 2012 - 11:34 AM.

[Lady Blackfyre]

Light a wight tonight, on 23 February 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

The fact that he gave Victarion the dusky woman suggests that he may have made a very personal sacrifice.

That has crossed my mind too, but there's a problem - he gave the Dusky Woman to Victarion, not the Faceless Men. Unless, of course, they were predicting Victarion would use the Woman to blow the Dragon Horn (thus completing the sacrifice).

I'm trying to figure what other things Euron could hold dear... any ideas?

Edited by LadyBlackfyre, 23 February 2012 - 11:55 AM.

[JayDubya]

I agree with the others that this is a great idea.  It fits a lot of variables in the great equation.    

As to why the FM want a Dragon?  They're a mysterious enough organization at this point that it would be nigh-impossible to tell for sure what their motivations are.   Perhaps they want to sell it to Illyrio for Young Griff.  Perhaps they want to keep it out of Dany's hands (as the one person with dragon-birthing experience).  Perhaps they need a monster to guard their secret treasure base up in the mountains.   Perhaps they need a distraction to kill a major target.

[protar]

Perhaps they want to hatch a dragon not to use as a weapon, but to experiment on to find out the weakness of dragons?

[Apple Martini]

protar, on 23 February 2012 - 11:50 AM, said:

Perhaps they want to hatch a dragon not to use as a weapon, but to experiment on to find out the weakness of dragons?

Beat me to it.