213 replies to this topic

[puenboy]

I don't understand him. He gets no notable mention until a Storm of Swords where he trusted Jon enough to hold the wall (that or being craven and ran off), then Jon trusted Bowen Marsh enough to let him be Lord Commander. Then he stabbed Jon, however it seemed that he genuinely thought that Jon was ruining the Night's Watch and regretted having to stab Jon. I might be missing a few things when I read ADWD, so can anyone confirm if Bowen Marsh is actually a good or a bad guy?

[kissdbyfire]

I don't think he's necessarily a bad guy, as in an evil person. I think he's a bit of a coward, but most importantly he's very short-sighted and has too many prejudices.

[Winter's Lady]

Grey, like everyone else in this series.
He lived on the Wall believing the wildlings were the enemy, and he couldn't deal with the changes Jon inflicted when he became LC. It went against his beliefs to let the wildlings in. That Jon planned to go to Winterfell might have been the final straw.
Can I understand to some degree why he did what he did? Eh, yes, if I squint.
Does that mean I don't hate him and don't want him to get eaten by Ghost? Hell no!
But that guy is going to get it from the wildlings so bad, so I'm ok for now.

Edited because I'm unable to make no spelling errors the first time.

Edited by Lady of Oldcastle, 23 February 2012 - 11:45 AM.

[The Duke]

Just cowardly and a bit of an idiot.  He thinks he is doing what's best for the Nights Watch, he is just completely and utterly wrong.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

A dangerous idiot.

[Apple Martini]

I think he's a bit of a coward and possibly an idiot. But as for "evil," no.

[Winter's Lady]

Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren, on 23 February 2012 - 11:46 AM, said:

A dangerous idiot.

That's it in a nutshell, yes.

[Grip]

He is a member of the nightwatch doing what he thinks is best for the Watch as a whole, even though that is wrong (IE attempting murder)..Besides his last act he hasnt shown himself too be evil in any way, its just that he has a different opinion than Jon (and he is not alone in that)..He seems to have served ably as Lord Steward and even lead the Watch at the battle of the bridge of skulls, even if that proved to be a costly victory..So he is grey which I dont mind..

Edited by Grip, 23 February 2012 - 11:49 AM.

[kissdbyfire]

Ghost eating him is a good idea. I rather like the thought of Wun Wun ripping his head off too.
I agree that Jon deciding to go to Winterfell may have been the final straw. And I think he may have started thinking about it when Jon had that meeting with him and the others to prepare for the free folk coming south of the Wall, but I also think someone else must have been involved, behind the scenes sort of thing. I think he's cowardice wouldn't let him do what he did on his own.

[David Selig]

He's my hero because he killed Jon.

Edited by David Selig, 23 February 2012 - 12:12 PM.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

David Selig, on 23 February 2012 - 12:11 PM, said:

He's my hero because he killed Jon.

I've always believed there are two kinds of people in this world. Those who's hearts get torn apart reading about Jon's plight and those without souls. What kind are you?

[Great Dayne]

What is the recourse of a LC of the NW that has gone rogue?  Not justifying Bowen Marsh's actions at all, (I actually can't stand him, but I do get his problem with the Wildings) but are there any ways to get rid of a LC short of a mutiny?  They democratically vote for the LC yet I don't understand how there is no method of legally getting rid of someone.  I like Jon, however I was upset and confused when he decided to go to Winterfell and confront Ramsay.

As for the original question, Bowen Marsh is short-sighted and a hypocrite.

[Apple Martini]

Great Dayne, on 23 February 2012 - 12:21 PM, said:

What is the recourse of a LC of the NW that has gone rogue?

If you follow the Night King's story, they apparently take him out. That was an extreme example -- Jon wasn't sacrificing to the Others or practicing sorcery -- but it's not unprecedented for a commander to go off the deep end. Note that the Watch took out the Night King for crimes he had committed, not crimes they thought he might commit.

[The Third Reed]

OnionAhaiReborn, on 23 February 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

I've always believed there are two kinds of people in this world. Those who's hearts get torn apart reading about Jon's plight and those without souls. What kind are you?

Your forget the people who dislike Jon because it's seemingly the "cool" thing to do.

[The Mother of The Others]

Yes he's still good.  And he's doing his job by the letter of the law.   Bowen isn't the visionary.  So when Jon starts following the spirit of the law, Bowen can't bridge the gap to see things Jon's way.  So, as of right now, Bowen's heart remains good but he's limited in his potential to face the huge problems at hand (because that's going to require adjusting the Watch's methods the way Jon was doing). But if we find out Bowen was part of some kind of Alliser conspiracy, etc., then that'd change things.  Then he'd be closer to betraying the nightswatch, whereas currently it looks like he's upholding its tenets (letter of the law).

Edited by The Mother of The Others, 23 February 2012 - 12:25 PM.

[David Selig]

OnionAhaiReborn, on 23 February 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

I've always believed there are two kinds of people in this world. Those who's hearts get torn apart reading about Jon's plight and those without souls. What kind are you?

I am of the "bored to tears of reading about a cliche character with a bland personality" kind.

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

I GRRM intended him to be a well meaning idiot like, "Brutus was an honorable man", killing Caesar.  I don't see where we get a whole lot of insight into Bowen though.  

I was really hoping that Jon was going to change the nature of the watch.  I thought that allowing the wilding women into the  keeps might mean eventually the NW would be allowed to start families and the ranks would start to fill out because of it.  Seems like the NW would have jump at that but, uh, nope.

[Revan Baratheon]

Yea i dont think we can call a murdering turncloak a good guy.He is no Gregor but rather more of a lancel?(too cowardly to murder outright).Atleast gregor was a brave guy..

[Grail King]

Short sighted individual who in his heart believed he was protecting the watch and keeping it's vows, unfortunately he along with the North and South totally forgot why the wall was put up over the long course of time.

The southern problem is the anvil, the Others the hammer, so unless Jon returns along with a reliable Nights Watch along with Bran, Rickon, Stannis, Millesandre, Danny, Davos and Sam can rally people the realm is screwed, Sansa and Arya will be working on umm certain Southern problems affecting the North and House Stark in particular.

[Great Dayne]

Apple Martini, on 23 February 2012 - 12:23 PM, said:

If you follow the Night King's story, they apparently take him out. That was an extreme example -- Jon wasn't sacrificing to the Others or practicing sorcery -- but it's not unprecedented for a commander to go off the deep end. Note that the Watch took out the Night King for crimes he had committed, not crimes they thought he might commit.

The Night's King was taken out by the King of the North and wildings, so obviously the NW served under him for 13 years.  Mormont was killed by brothers who disagreed with his actions, as was Jon (attempted, most people hope).  I just think it is odd that the LC is voted for and is a position for life.