Stannis' leeches

[Winter's Lady]

i dont understand how you guys down play the romance of asoiaf. Mel loves Stannis. LF loves Sansa. Jaime loves Cersei Brienne. lol I mean... i think im the only guy in this thread, why do i always look like such a damn romantic...

It's OK sweetie...girls like romantic guys :lol:

[Elaena Targaryen]

i dont understand how you guys down play the romance of asoiaf. Mel loves Stannis. LF loves Sansa. Jaime loves Cersei Brienne. lol I mean... i think im the only guy in this thread, why do i always look like such a damn romantic...

I'm a romantic too, maybe Mel manipulated Stannis for his own good because she loves him. :dunno:

[BabyMeraxes]

Funny story: not for one second did I believe anything BUT Melisandre's magic leeches killed those three kings. When I read the FAQ section on this website, and some of the questions were, "WHO KILLED JOFFREY?" "WHO KILLED BALON?" I was like, "Melisandre. Duh." When I read these forums, I get the feeling that people forget that this is supposed to be a fantasy series.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Funny story: not for one second did I believe anything BUT Melisandre's magic leeches killed those three kings. When I read the FAQ section on this website, and some of the questions were, "WHO KILLED JOFFREY?" "WHO KILLED BALON?" I was like, "Melisandre. Duh." When I read these forums, I get the feeling that people forget that this is supposed to be a fantasy series.

It is a fantasy series, but that doesn't mean that "it's magic!" is the cause or excuse for everything. If anything, I think it's the opposite: A lot of what's put down to magic is the result of human agency. If you notice, a lot of things can be seen in prophecy, but that alone isn't enough to cause them. The leeches being a prime example. The leeches did absolutely nothing; Melisandre saw future events in her fire but that does not mean that she could influence them, only see them. She needed a way to "prove" her power to Stannis so she made up the theatrics with the leeches.

[Turkey Jack]

Mel dose have magic but I think she saw what was coming and made a show of it. I suspect Pylos tipped her off about what the sleeping Cressen had in mind and provided her with an antidote.

[The King in the South]

If Mel could kill people with leeches I'm pretty sure she would killed off Cersei, Roose, Tywin, Tommen, Myrcella, etc, etc

What actually happened is she saw their deaths in the fire and used this as a way to take credit

[OnionAhaiReborn]

If Mel could actually pull off the leech trick every time, why wouldn't she just kill everyone in the line of succession who comes before Stannis (I realize that Stannis is Robert's true heir but I mean the line of succession assuming the twincest kids are legitimate)? Because it doesn't really work, that's why.

[Turkey Jack]

If Mel could actually pull off the leech trick every time, why wouldn't she just kill everyone in the line of succession who comes before Stannis (I realize that Stannis is Robert's true heir but I mean the line of succession assuming the twincest kids are legitimate)? Because it doesn't really work, that's why.

I guess we would have a book of Stannis shouting out names, and that lute guy who was at Winterfell, oh and the usurper Robert Baratheon just in case hes not dead, and Edric Storm as hes one of Roberts bastards no wait I need more blood

[alienarea]

A few considerations:

- three leeches = three wishes?

- Stannis needed to give his blood to the leeches which were then tossed into fire

- regardless whether it worked or not, Stannis wanted Joffrey, Balon and Robb dead

One could argue that because it is magic it only works as long as the one who is leeched doesn't know, i.e. it can't be repeated.

Obviously Melisandre can't do it on her own.

[Rhaegar Targaryen's Ghost]

Mel saw what would happen before it happened and manipulated Stannis into believing she had something to do with it. But she didn't.

i absolutely agree. am i the only one who thinks it bizarre that only R'hllor is the only god that seems to have powers, we've seen practically nothing from the seven or the old gods (other than bloodraven and the weir woods)

[Jadiecat]

This is a great question.

One of the things I love about the books is the farcical nature of what goes on. For example, with Joffrey--there are a host of people who really want him dead. On the day of the purple wedding, you can make a case that people had to take a number in order to assassinate him. Who *didn't* try to kill that little jerk on that day? I think there were simultaneous, multiple attempts on his life.

I also love the ambiguity. Each of the deaths (except one) that we can relate to Mel (also Jaqen H'ghar) could have alternate explanations. Was the magic taking advantage of natural opportunities to work its power (including whipping up a storm or enhancing the assassination mojo of others), or is magic taking undeserving credit?

It reminds me of the way (it seems) Cersei would try to kill off Robert--by getting him drunk enough to get hurt hunting, by goading him to defiantly enter a tourney that would be dangerous for him. It's not stabbing him, but it's setting the stage. And in his case, using his own failings--pride, overindulgence in alcohol--as the rope to literally hang himself with.

But for two things, I'd say there's no way to tell if Mel's power is responsible for the deaths of her targets.

Those are:

The death of Renley -- Catelyn believes she saw the shadow of Stannis kill him, and both she and Brienne certainly saw that he died inexplicably.

And Davos, who seems a very reliable narrator, saw the birth of the shadow baby.

Those two events make it harder for me to dismiss Mel's effectiveness.

I agree with with other poters that GRRM's approach to magic is and will be unique. Or should I say, not unique. Magic will be incompletely understood by people, unpredictable and subject to snafu, sketchiness, Murphy's law, etc., like every important force or phenomena in the real world of humans.

[BabyMeraxes]

Well, I think it's naive reading to see the ritual Melisandre performed, and then immediately dismiss the possibility of her actions influencing the death of those kings. It's been proven that Melisandre's sorceries extend beyond prophecy. Maybe the leeches were just a big show, but I don't think so.

Why doesn't Melisandre use the leech trick all the time?

A. When the four kings were dead, Stannis assumed that the realm would have no choice but to rally around him. By the time Tommen took over, Stannis had has hands full with another battle in the North. (and, let's be real, her sorcery doesn't stop at the Wall).

B. I think it's logical to assume that magic, in this series, is performed under extreme strain, and often comes at a terrible price. Maybe Melisandre just couldn't handle the stress of performing the leech trick continuously.

[The Storm Queen]

The most simple explanation. They are in the middle of a civil war. There are only two possible outcomes for Stannis

a. He wins. Given his character this means the death of all "usurpers". Prophecy "fulfilled"

b. He loses and gets killed. The prophecy is his last problem :-)

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Well, I think it's naive reading to see the ritual Melisandre performed, and then immediately dismiss the possibility of her actions influencing the death of those kings. It's been proven that Melisandre's sorceries extend beyond prophecy. Maybe the leeches were just a big show, but I don't think so.

Melisandre makes it very clear in her POV that a lot of her 'power' comes from appearances. With magic rising in the world more lately, she has been able to do more, and her power is even greater on the wall. But when she first shows up in Westeros she is using powders and stuff to change colors of fires and impress people. In line with this, she is trying to get Stannis to burn Edric Storm to wake the stone dragon. So what does she do? She sees three deaths in her flames, and she 'uses' Edric's king's blood to 'kill' them. Except she hasn't really killed them, it's another trick. It's a trick that she hopes will lead to Stannis giving her what she wants. This isn't naive, this is well reasoned.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Well, I think it's naive reading to see the ritual Melisandre performed, and then immediately dismiss the possibility of her actions influencing the death of those kings. It's been proven that Melisandre's sorceries extend beyond prophecy. Maybe the leeches were just a big show, but I don't think so.

I think it's equally naive to assume that three deaths that had absolutely nothing to do with Melisandre had to have been caused by chucking leeches into a fire.

[Stark@heart]

I think she saw it in the flames and acted in accordance, to bring about the visions. Not everything seen in the flames happens or happens the way it's seen or interpreted. Mel saw the deaths and told Stannis she could make them happen with Kings blood. He would not give her Edric to burn so she could only leech him, which is no guareente. IIRC she said as much. She then usee the deaths as proof of her powers to make a stronger case for "waking the stone dragon".

I think Mel's actions influenced what happened. Helped the stars to align, etc. Like what if...the poision was placed in Joffs chalice before he poured it over Tyrions head?

We've seen Mel's magic work, she did totally flame an eagle with the power of her mind. That's magic in my book.

We haven't seen her attempt any blood magic yet and fail. If she does get her hands on someone with Kings blood, we may see just how powerful magic can be. So far, GRRM has kept it in the background but it's definately there and it's definately real so I can't wait to see where he goes with it.

[BabyMeraxes]

I think it's equally naive to assume that three deaths that had absolutely nothing to do with Melisandre had to have been caused by chucking leeches into a fire.

Okay, gurl. Here's the thing. By chucking those leeches in the fire, Melisandre is absolutely connceted to those murders. Devoting time and effort to writing that scene and giving us a direct perspective, that raises a red flag, for me, as a reader. Now, I don't know if those leeches had anything to do with those murders, maybe they didn't. But, given the text of these novels, you don't know that Melisandre's ritual didn't influence them either. This is why literary forums are fun. We get to fill in the gaps with our speculation, plus we can stave off the bordem of work.

[BabyMeraxes]

I think she saw it in the flames and acted in accordance, to bring about the visions. Not everything seen in the flames happens or happens the way it's seen or interpreted. Mel saw the deaths and told Stannis she could make them happen with Kings blood. He would not give her Edric to burn so she could only leech him, which is no guareente. IIRC she said as much. She then usee the deaths as proof of her powers to make a stronger case for "waking the stone dragon".

I think Mel's actions influenced what happened. Helped the stars to align, etc. Like what if...the poision was placed in Joffs chalice before he poured it over Tyrions head?

We've seen Mel's magic work, she did totally flame an eagle with the power of her mind. That's magic in my book.

We haven't seen her attempt any blood magic yet and fail. If she does get her hands on someone with Kings blood, we may see just how powerful magic can be. So far, GRRM has kept it in the background but it's definately there and it's definately real so I can't wait to see where he goes with it.

YUP.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Okay, gurl. Here's the thing. By chucking those leeches in the fire, Melisandre is absolutely connceted to those murders. Devoting time and effort to writing that scene and giving us a direct perspective, that raises a red flag, for me, as a reader. Now, I don't know if those leeches had anything to do with those murders, maybe they didn't. But, given the text of these novels, you don't know that Melisandre's ritual didn't influence them either. This is why literary forums are fun. We get to fill in the gaps with our speculation, plus we can stave off the bordem of work.

She's connected to them insofar as she's duped Stannis into thinking she "caused" them. If I say, "If I clap my hands three times, it'll rain tomorrow" and I clap my hands and it rains tomorrow, did clapping my hands cause the rain? Correlation is not causation.

If you'd like to speculate as to HOW, exactly, tossing some leeches into a fire CAUSED these deaths, by all means, do so. But at least two of the three, and possibly all three, had firm roots in place from before Melisandre used the leeches. Robb's betrayal was seemingly set in motion in Clash of Kings, and Joffrey's demise was hatched when Sansa spoke to Olenna Tyrell. The question mark is when Euron hired a Faceless Man to kill Balon, exactly, but like I said, if you can link that specifically to Melisandre's powers, go for it.

The only king's death that can be laid at Melisandre's feet is Renly's.

[teemo]

Okay, gurl. Here's the thing. By chucking those leeches in the fire, Melisandre is absolutely connceted to those murders. Devoting time and effort to writing that scene and giving us a direct perspective, that raises a red flag, for me, as a reader. Now, I don't know if those leeches had anything to do with those murders, maybe they didn't. But, given the text of these novels, you don't know that Melisandre's ritual didn't influence them either. This is why literary forums are fun. We get to fill in the gaps with our speculation, plus we can stave off the bordem of work.

How do you absolutely know she is connected to the murders?