77 replies to this topic

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Turkey Jack, on 24 February 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

That is not answering the question

lol.
yes,
no,
fuck you,
   take your pick

[Apple Martini]

Ndrew of Typhgarian, on 24 February 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

Stannis is bangin her on the reg, no reason to ditch her.
So why in the seven hells would she make up this little act with Leeches?

Your question is answered by the bolded part. As long as he has some reason, no matter how vague, to believe in her power, he'll keep her around. The leeches achieved that, even though, as we keep repeating, there's no good evidence that they had anything to do with the deaths.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Ndrew of Typhgarian, on 24 February 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

...
Look Mel is 100% down with whatever the fuck she is doing (in the long run), no second thoughts.
Stannis is bangin her on the reg, no reason to ditch her.
So why in the seven hells would she make up this little act with Leeches?

To convince Stannis of the power of king's blood so that she can convince him to let her burn Edric Storm and wake a stone dragon.

[Falrinn]

Apple Martini, on 24 February 2012 - 05:40 PM, said:

Considering that the plans to kill them were either definitely or highly likely to have been in motion before the leeches, and no one has been able to directly tie the leeches and/or Melisandre to the deaths, I'm gonna say ... yeah.

Agreed. Plus you have to consider if Melisandre's magic is so powerful she can influence events happening on the other side of Westeros, why hasn't she done so again?

Why not just wipe out all 3 of the Lannister children so Stannis is undeniably next in line to the throne by established law?  Why not kill Roose and Ramsey so the armies of Dreadfort are in complete disarray when he attacks Winterfell?

[Nev yn]

Quote

idk? he stubbed his toe? Cat ate some bad mutton? Westerling goes thru labor? Jaime Lannister never sends his regards?

I can't believe nobody else called you on this.  You seriously think Melisandre's great powerful show of blood magic is limited to preventing Robb from stubbing his toe or getting food poisoning?  Or preventing the Faceless Man from finding the Iron Islands, I suppose.  Just how omnipotent would Rahloo have to be to be able to very subtly affect causality this way*?  And this doesn't make you think that hey, maybe you're trying too hard to force her "power" into this situation?


*And if he was that powerful, why bother with all the subterfuge?  Why not just char them to cinders where they stand, to better spread the Glory of the Great Red Rahloo?

Edited by Nev yn, 24 February 2012 - 06:31 PM.

[Stark@heart]

OnionAhaiReborn, on 24 February 2012 - 05:54 PM, said:

To convince Stannis of the power of king's blood so that she can convince him to let her burn Edric Storm and wake a stone dragon.

Exactly.  She sees skulls around the other usurpers and uses it to her advantage.   Would they all have died anyway?  Probably.

Falrinn, on 24 February 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

Agreed. Plus you have to consider if Melisandre's magic is so powerful she can influence events happening on the other side of Westeros, why hasn't she done so again?

Why not just wipe out all 3 of the Lannister children so Stannis is undeniably next in line to the throne by established law?  Why not kill Roose and Ramsey so the armies of Dreadfort are in complete disarray when he attacks Winterfell?

Really powerful blood magic seems to requires Kings blood, which isn't exactly on tap.  She's not going to waste it.  She needs it to fulfill her goal and wake the stone dragon.  Once she has a dragon she can defeat any army that comes against them.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

OnionAhaiReborn, on 24 February 2012 - 05:54 PM, said:

To convince Stannis of the power of king's blood so that she can convince him to let her burn Edric Storm and wake a stone dragon.

Ok, fair enough. I like magic and love more. I doubt that we will ever find out

[Baitac]

Ndrew of Typhgarian, on 24 February 2012 - 08:12 PM, said:

Ok, fair enough. I like magic and love more. I doubt that we will ever find out

Don't give up on this! Magic and love are awesome, and great fodder for great storytelling.  Magic is in the eyes of the beholder. You must believe in order for it to be magic versus reality. The reality is that those three kings would have died anyway. The magic part of it is that Stannis went through some sort of ceremony with leeches that was created by Meli so he now believes that this was the cause of these deaths. If instead of leeches, it would be present day, and voodoo dolls were used by Stannis and bad things happened to the three kings, then he would believe that he had something to do with their deaths.  Did the dolls cause the deaths? No, but he thinks they did, and that is all that matters. However, I do not think that Mel is devoid of supernatural powers. I think that Davos, Brienne, and Catelyn would have made solid witnesses that something involving dark magic did, in fact, occur.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Stark@heart, on 24 February 2012 - 06:38 PM, said:

Exactly. She sees skulls around the other usurpers and uses it to her advantage. Would they all have died anyway? Probably.

Really powerful blood magic seems to requires Kings blood, which isn't exactly on tap. She's not going to waste it. She needs it to fulfill her goal and wake the stone dragon. Once she has a dragon she can defeat any army that comes against them.

Tee hee. Here's one reason why I think R+L =J: it would be very GRRM to have Melisandre, the pretend prophetess, at Castle Black moaning about king's blood and transforming tribesmen into kings and princesses while the person with the best king's blood in Westeros is right in front of her. She can't see it, even when her own damn fire is pointing right at him. Like I said, tee hee. (I can't stand that red bitch.)

[Fire Eater]

Apple Martini, on 24 February 2012 - 05:53 PM, said:

Your question is answered by the bolded part. As long as he has some reason, no matter how vague, to believe in her power, he'll keep her around. The leeches achieved that, even though, as we keep repeating, there's no good evidence that they had anything to do with the deaths.

Maybe in a way, those three kings were destined to die, and those leeches didn't cause their deaths but only foretold them. The only people whom the leeches are to cause the deaths are the people who already are going to die soon kind of like, reading your fortune from a card you picked, picking the card doesn't cause an event, but foretells it.

Edited by fireeater22, 25 February 2012 - 12:41 AM.

[Rhaegar Targaryen's Ghost]

why does stannis hesitate so long before saying Robbs name? does that mean anything?

[Jolene Brown]

Rhaegar Targaryen, on 18 July 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

why does stannis hesitate so long before saying Robbs name? does that mean anything?

He knows that one day Jon Snow is going to find about it somehow and go batshit on him?  

[salt]

Rhaegar Targaryen, on 18 July 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

why does stannis hesitate so long before saying Robbs name? does that mean anything?

He probably recognized that Robb's cause was just, to some extent.  Stannis chose his blood over his liege once before, and he would have undestood Robb's motivation.  Not that that would stop him from killing someone he views as treasonous to his kingdom, but he probably didn't think he deserved to die in the way that Joffrey or Balon did.


Also, its pretty clear that Stannis doesn't believe it was the leeches that killed them, even after the other kings are dead.

Quote

“It was the Lord’s wrath that slew him,” Ser Axell Florent declared. “It was the hand of R’hllor!”
“Praise the Lord of Light!” sang out Queen Selyse, a pinched thin hard woman with large ears and a hairy upper lip.
“Is the hand of R’hllor spotted and palsied?” asked Stannis. “This sounds more Walder Frey’s handiwork than any god’s.”

Edited by salt, 18 July 2012 - 09:14 PM.

[Garlan Marius]

The way I see it, this is foreshadowing Stannis setting Roose Bolton on fire.

[Jarlix]

Apple Martini, on 23 February 2012 - 05:03 PM, said:

It is a fantasy series, but that doesn't mean that "it's magic!" is the cause or excuse for everything. If anything, I think it's the opposite: A lot of what's put down to magic is the result of human agency. If you notice, a lot of things can be seen in prophecy, but that alone isn't enough to cause them. The leeches being a prime example. The leeches did absolutely nothing; Melisandre saw future events in her fire but that does not mean that she could influence them, only see them. She needed a way to "prove" her power to Stannis so she made up the theatrics with the leeches.

Magic should theoretically be able to alter causality on a deeper level. Given what she's been able to do so far, I would say her cursing people to die in seemingly uncorrelated ways would mean that fundamentally, far less matter is being manipulated than when she creates freaking shadow demons, as she is using existing compositions of atoms as chess pieces rather than creating something from scratch. And Melisandre very rarely sees accurately. Her failure rate is absurd. Mathematically, manipulation of causality is more likely. Plus, Mel believes so strongly in the powers of her god I cannot imagine her wanting to entrance him into a state of deeper belief, she has and would prefer to simply show him. That's why she wants people to believe in him. And Stannis can't really be further indoctrinated than he is, man. He knows what the red god can do. Holy shit, the theory doesn't make any psychological sense, though I suppose more unbelievable decisions have been made in IAF.

I am sorry but though your theory is great and arguably the most likely, it isn't the only physically plausible explanation in my humble opinion. Until she explicitly states in a POV that it was a ploy to manipulate him then it's up in the air, which for a lot of plot set pieces in IAF is the closest we get to a opaque affirmation, I do admit.

I personally find the idea that everything is the design of R'hllor's plans interesting as GRRM said he got some inspiration from The Iliad and gods in that often led men into the thrall of their caprice, their wars would manifest in the dispute of mortal swords. So while the great other and R'hllor play their game, the characters are the dominoes in their gambling suite being tipped into each other or like weapons they use to fight a duel.

I think it would make her seem far less disturbing and mysterious if your theory was correct, and that's what GRRM is going for with magic in the series.

edit: I didn't read the date correctly... My mistake.

Edited by Jarlix, 04 June 2013 - 03:20 AM.

[IRON BANK]

I dont think that Mel had that big of a part in these mens deaths.  However she did forsee the tragedies that would befall them.  I think she can see others fates just fine but cannot see who is AA.  With that in mind she uses Stannis to get her where she needs to go and if he turns out to be AA thats a win wn for her.

[FittleLinger]

Well, it was the War of the 5 Kings. All the 5 kings wish death to each other. It's a pretty safe bet that some of them will die. It's not the most insane thing to happen when those people want to kill each other.

If we take World War Two (simplified) it would have been either Hitler or Stalin. So if before the war I made a bet that Hitler won't survive the war (and that's what actually happens) am I some kind of a prophet?

[Jon Snow: What a bastard]

Yeah it was confirmed by the ice and fire app that Mel had already seen the three king's fates in the flames before giving him the leeches anyway. She's just trying to appear as powerful as possible, as evidenced by ADWD