177 replies to this topic

[The Frosted King]

Faint, on 24 February 2012 - 03:21 PM, said:

If he can't command loyalty from his own subjects, he shouldn't have been marching south in the first place. Look at Tywin Lannister, do you see his underlords questioning his decisions?

What are you talking about?

Loyalty is gained from actions that are deemed worthy of allegiance.

If he forgave the ones who killed his father, and burned the lands and killed the people of his grandfathers lands, what do these actions inspire?

Disloyalty. Because of what appears to be weakness.

Your view of loyalty seems to be of Joffs ilk, in that you have it because of who you are.

Whereas in the north, you have it because of what you decide to do.

He faced steep odds, and it appears he might have won all, but for the plotting of Frey, Bolton and Lannister.

[Faint]

Scootydowop, on 24 February 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

If he forgave the ones who killed his father, and burned the lands and killed the people of his grandfathers lands, what do these actions inspire?

He is not forgiving anything; he would be getting ample compensation in return.

And I actually think the situation with respect to loyalty in so far as it concerns him and his men speaks in favor of him having made peace. As it was, here he was, with less than half his forces, declaring independence in the middle of a war where nobody else was making a similar claim (and thus, in one stroke, putting him in opposition with everybody).

To make matters worse, he couldn’t even reign in his own bannerman. Roose Bolton turned snake at first sign of trouble, Rickard Karstark disobeyed his express command (as did Robb's mother and her brother for that matter), and now we’re hearing that Lady Dustin isn’t a fan either. In other words, these were not exactly the best of circumstances in order to undertake a three-pronged war against multiple foes, all of who were stronger and more cohesive than you.

He should have made peace, gone home with a new wife and two Lannister hostages, and let the rest of the realm bleed itself dry down south.

Edited by Faint, 24 February 2012 - 04:47 PM.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Faint, on 24 February 2012 - 04:46 PM, said:

He is not forgiving anything; he would be getting ample compensation in return.

And I actually think the situation with respect to loyalty in so far as it concerns him and his men speaks in favor of him having made peace. As it was, here he was, with less than half his forces, declaring independence in the middle of a war where nobody else was making a similar claim (and thus, in one stroke, putting him in opposition with everybody).

To make matters worse, he couldn’t even reign in his own bannerman. Roose Bolton turned snake at first sign of trouble, Rickard Karstark disobeyed his express command (as did Robb's mother and her brother for that matter), and now we’re hearing that Lady Dustin isn’t a fan either. In other words, these were not exactly the best of circumstances in order to undertake a three-pronged war against multiple foes, all of who were stronger and more cohesive than you.

He should have made peace, gone home with a new wife and two Lannister hostages, and let the rest of the realm bleed itself dry down south.

Karstark, Bolton and Lady Dustin are asses, look at the Manderlys or Reeds.
Should he have executed his mother and uncle also?
He could not have gone home when there was still a war in the Riverlands (his highest populated land in his Kingdom
And he wasn't really outnumbered that much, the Throne was at war with both Baratheons, and both Baratheons was at war with all the other kings. There were 3 people fighting for one crown, it seems like the perfect opportunity to secede from the 7 Kingdoms

[Faint]

Ndrew of Typhgarian, on 24 February 2012 - 05:01 PM, said:

Karstark, Bolton and Lady Dustin are asses, look at the Manderlys or Reeds.
Should he have executed his mother and uncle also?
He could not have gone home when there was still a war in the Riverlands (his highest populated land in his Kingdom
And he wasn't really outnumbered that much, the Throne was at war with both Baratheons, and both Baratheons was at war with all the other kings. There were 3 people fighting for one crown, it seems like the perfect opportunity to secede from the 7 Kingdoms

I think you misunderstand my point. I do not think he should have ever declared any kingdom. I think he should have demanded Sansa, Cersei, and Tommen in return for Jaime and a bended knee and withdrawn from the war.

As you undoubtedly realize, Doran Martell has as many, if not more, reason to hate the Lannisters, but he did not declare Dornish independence and plunge Dorne into war.

Now ask yourself this: Who is in better position right now?

Robb lies dead in the mud without a head, the Starks have been overthrown, and the North is in chaos. Dorne is at peace, the Martells remain secure, and Doran still has his head last time I checked.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Faint, on 24 February 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

I think you misunderstand my point. I do not think he should have ever declared any kingdom. I think he should have demanded Sansa, Cersei, and Tommen in return for Jaime and a bended knee and withdrawn from the war.

As you undoubtedly realize, Doran Martell has as many, if not more, reason to hate the Lannisters, but he did not declare Dornish independence and plunge Dorne into war.

Now ask yourself this: Who is in better position right now?

Robb lies dead in the mud without a head, the Starks have been overthrown, and the North is in chaos. Dorne is at peace, the Martells remain secure, and Doran still has his head last time I checked.

The Prince of Doran is a craven, but i dont blame him the Martells just pretend to be a major house, but in actuality they are just a sub house of the Targaryens. But the Starks are not. They are the house of Winter and the North, they dont chill in the sun playing with spears and poison. And the Martells dont look like they are in the best position (better then dead Robb) quentin is dead, Red Viper is dead, Sandsnakes are not as cool as we thought, and arianne is prob gonna be arrested for the attempted murder of Princess Myrchella Baratheon. But Rickon Stark or Westerling's unborn baby still have a lot of fight in them.
But regardless of hind sight they killed his father.

[justjames]

Not sure why so many posts are suggesting that Robb should have listened to his mom when she has made one bad decision after another.

[The GreatRon]

Robb was in way over his head in almost everything that didn't involve military action. He said it himself in Riverrun.

[Stark@heart]

If Catelyn had stayed in Winterfell, Robb wouldn't have been the one leading the northern army.  Catelyn should have been the one to call the banners.  She would probably have put Roose in charge and Robb would never have been to battle.  Roose would have bent the knee to Tywin after Ned was beheaded.  Catelyn and her sons would be safe in Winterfell and after a time arrangements could have been made for her to visit her daughters, who no doubt would have been married off to Lannisters.   Ugh, if that's how things would have gone, Arya could very well have ended up married to Ramsey for real. Or Sansa could have been shipped back north and married to Roose himself, who no doubt would have been named Warden of the North until Robb came of age.  Unless Roose flayed him first.  Ha

After a war, a peace is always made, Littlefinger & Roose both say something similar to this.  I believe Roose was playing false from the start and just bideing his time.

Maybe he saw history repeating itself.  The Starks go south to Kingslanding but they don't come back.   The heir to Winterfell is only a boy of fourteen.  What better time to make a play.  He had no idea how lucky he was going to get.  Then things go really well for the northern army but still, Roose had no interest in seeing a young boy like Robb declared a King.  It probably brought home to him what a disgrace Ramsey is but then again Boltons like to flay people so maybe Ramsey is his ideal of an son/heir.

I think he was hoping Robb would get himself killed then Roose could rule over Winterfell and the North for years until Bran came of age.  Robb was good and he won battles and he managed to stay alive.  Bummer for Bolton.  No way can he move against the rightful heirs of House Stark without the whole of the north coming against him.  Not just the Lords but the smallfolk too.  The Starks are too loved to be overthrown by conquest or death.  He needed something more if he was going to succeed.

I would love to find out who reached out to who?  Did Roose send a message to Tywin testing the waters for his treason or did Tywin propose they work together?

Robb was way over his head but he didn't trust Roose and he didn't just throw people into battle to die like Tywin and Roose did.  He had the potential to be great man and a great leader.  I wish GRRM would have loved Robb as much as I do and kept him and Greywind alive and I wish he'd hurry up and send Catelyn to the Seven Hells.  At first it was spooky and cool. Now that we've really seen her, she just a bigger bitch in her Unlife than she was in real life.  She's treating everyone like their Jon now.

[K1NGSLAYER]

I think Robb was a good king who just made some bad decisions, had he won I think he would have been a great king... with some help of course.

Edited by K1NGSLAYER, 24 February 2012 - 06:15 PM.

[The Irish Wolf]

Ndrew of Typhgarian, on 24 February 2012 - 04:02 PM, said:

ok cool, hmmm... Look i cant win this argument based on your posts. Justification for feudalism is impossible, especially when its feudal war. But i can say that Robb Stark had every reason to go to war and seek his revenge, and if i had the resources of the North and the Riverlands i would utilize them as well. Perhaps Robb did abandon the North, he certainly did not help out the Wall, but compared to every other king in ASOIAF he was not a bad king. Come to think of it, in the entire course of History there has never been a "good" king, prob has sompthing to do with the fact that justification for feudalism is impossible

I agree with you 100% on all your posts.

For me, Robb wasn't in power long enough to get a true read on how'd he be, but if he performed like he set out to, be kind and honorable, no question he would be thought highly of.

He made blunders but as it was alluded to earlier, things could have gone completely different if the Tyrell's didn't put the power of Highgarden behind the Lannister's, but as things went he was doomed before the Westerlings.

Robb is a character in the book that could have been one of the completely good characters GRRM always says don't exist in his fantasy world, though I disagree with due to Joffrey(that's a great thread btw). I can't think of a single moment where I disagree with Robb on a moral level, though again, we only got a snap shot of the man that Robb was/could be, his death angers me to this day.

[Gurkhal]

Robb was a horrifically bad king who brought ruin on himself, his House and his subjects just as winter was hinting at the horizon. You could probably blame it on various other people but if we're going down that route I'm sure we can make Aerys come out as a king who really was very good but had some unfortunate circumstances working against him.

[The Swaggering Bravo]

So many things gone wrong in this post, I feel the need to pick it apart little by little.

Stark@heart, on 24 February 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

I love Robb.

I saw King of the North writen all over him the moment he called the banners.  He was so brave. He's only 14.  His father, who went south with his best friend, the King has been named a traitor and throw in a dungeon a thousand leagues away.  

He was 15, and he would have seemed like a push over if he didn't help his mother's family while his father was in a dungeon.

Stark@heart, on 24 February 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

His mother has left him to run after Littlefingers phantom and left him to run the castle and care for his two youngest siblings.  A four year old with abandonment issues caused by his fathers absence and his mothers ongoing devotion to Bran, who is now crippled and comatose.

She left because of an assassin and her realization that whatever Bran saw, someone wanted it to be kept a secret. Littlefinger didn't even occur to her as of yet. She, as all horrible mothers do, saw more danger in her husband and daughters going south with whoever paid the assassin than leaving a son in a coma who she could not help, Robb, and Rickon in a castle in complete relative safety.

Stark@heart, on 24 February 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

I hate Catelyn.

She left Winterfell on a wildgoose chase that ends with her losing the captive that she started a war over. Then she globs onto Robb leads him to ruin as she did Ned. Her and her Tullyness.  Family.Duty.Honor.  When she took Tyrion, she acted without thought to the consequences.  She painted a target on Ned's back and brought the wrath of Tywin Lannister down on her and destroyed both of her families.  How can anyone forget that she and her crazy sister via Littlefinger are the cause of all that happened in the North.

It was her captive, she attempted to tell Lysa this but she very well couldn't assert authority with one old knight when her sister had loyal men all around her. She said it was a mistake and that Tyrion should have stayed in his cell. The initial battles were the cause of Tyrion's abduction, yes, but the North only joined once Ned was executed. For a Stark at heart you should remember this instead of blaming everything on Catelyn. Ned died through his own faults and stubborn honor.

Stark@heart, on 24 February 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

The only thing Catelyn was right about was Theon, too bad she couldn't see the same dangers in Peter, the boy she and her family humiliated and ruined.

She never trusted Petyr, and her family had nothing to do with it. It seems you forgot about this too, so I'll explain: Petyr loved Catelyn, Brandon was engaged to Catelyn, Petyr challenged Brandon to a duel for Catelyn. Catelyn begged him not to. Petyr said no. Petyr was humiliated. Get it? I understand why Petyr may have resentment for Hoster, since it was he who sent him away after getting Lysa pregnant, but Catelyn had nothing to do with that.

Stark@heart, on 24 February 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

It was Catelyn who told Robb to leave Bolton to hold their rear.  Robb was going to give the job to the Greatjon.  Catelyn said Roose would be more prudent, which is true but Robb already did not trust Roose and was uncomfortable around him.  If he'd gone with his gut, he may have lost a battle but Roose would have been by his side and not available to plot with Tywin.

Actually, she advised to not send someone so brash to be in charge of the majority of his forces. Robb then chose Roose, saying "the man scares me". Roose actually was a very skilled battle commander and was Robb's best tactician (in my opinion). That people who hate Catelyn have to make up and change the story to explain why they hate her is very telling.

Stark@heart, on 24 February 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

It was Edmure who released Robb's men from garrisoning the Twins to fight in his battle, which cost Robb everything and made the Red Wedding possible. Edmure in his Tullyness has to show how good a Lord he is and ride out to defend his lands.  Robbs army could have defeated Tywin and ended the war in the North with a great victory but no...   Hell, it was probably Bryden's idea to storm some castles.

Damn him for defending his own land when that is exactly what Robb commanded him to do! Robb never informed Edmure of his brilliant plan, which, on a side note, is why I believe he made it up to guilt trip Edmure into marrying Roslin Frey. Marrying Jeyne made the Red Wedding possible, nothing else.

Stark@heart, on 24 February 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

I say Robb could have been a great King.

He was a great battle commander. Tywin Lannister didn't want to face "the boy" in battle again and used unhonorable and underhanded skulldruggery to defeat him.

To me, Robb was the best character in the series and Catelyn is one of the worst.

He defeated two incompetent commanders in surprise attacks, maybe he was a great battle commander, but those are not enough to base a decision on. He should have listened to his mother and heeded Greywind, this is war, there are no rules. Tywin marched to Harrenhal because of Renly and Stannis. He, unlike Robb, was fighting on multiple fronts and needed to be in a good position to go whichever way he needed to. I honestly liked Robb, but you do for all of the wrong reasons.

[David Selig]

I was getting worried after the first 2-3 pages that there weren't entertaining examples of posts consisting of grasping at straws and blaming others for Robb's mistakes but thankfully as expected that was quickly remedied. "Robb is my hero, he did everything right, it was all Catelyn/Edmure/Aliens from space's fault" faction stepped up, good work.

[The Swaggering Bravo]

Stark@heart, on 24 February 2012 - 06:12 PM, said:

After a war, a peace is always made, Littlefinger & Roose both say something similar to this.  I believe Roose was playing false from the start and just bideing his time.

Well, of course there's a peace after a war, otherwise the war would still be going on and it wouldn't be called a peace in the first place. This is like saying there's always a calm before the storm, because if there was no calm how do you differentiate it from the storm? One requires the other! I believe Roose was loyal but always calculating, and only joined the Lannisters after the Tyrells joined forces.

[atia-]

As soon as I realized that Robb broke the marriage pact with Frey I thought he was a dead man.

[Kozma]

Rob was a horrible king. Actually he resembles Karl (Charles) XII of Sweden. Engaged in the war at the very early age. Talented military leader, Fight against virtually all Westeros without military allies and with no support from the locals beyond the Riverrun.  At the end lost the control over the North and was killed by his own surrounding.

[livewyre]

IMO Robb wasn't a terrible king just had the worse luck out of everyone minus Renly. He had so many things working against him that there was no way he could succeed. Littlefinger had Lyssa sit on her hands instead of joining her family in the war. I believe Tywin had an alliance with Bolton as far back as clash. I'm not buying Roose happened to be in the right place at the right time to have Harrenhall fall into his hands. I think him recalling the men that Robb left at the twins was the initial stages of planning the Red Wedding. No one saw Balon deciding he would rather have rocks in the north rather than gold in Lannisport. Then Stannis and shadow babies kill Renly, break his host, then lose on the Blackwater.

Even after all of that, along with him marrying Jenye, he still had a leg to stand on till red wedding.

People saying he should have bent a knee to the Lannisters obviously don't understand the north. Given that Robb is dead and they still haven't bent a knee. The Boltons may have and those who have relatives held by the Freys. But as evidenced by Lord Manderly, once their family is safe they are on the warpath.

[Rickons Revenge]

Of course Rob would have been a great king in the north he probably couldve been a great King of the 7 and I think that's why GRRM killed him and rightfully so because Rob was who alot of us rooted for and if these books tell us anything. There is no happy ending

[Dark Rider]

For a teenage boy I think he did fairly well.

Hindsight is 20/20, but it was a mistake to accept the crown though.  I can't say though that at his age I wouldn't have done the same thing.  Robb became a victim of "mission creep."  The original mission was to free his Father and defeat the Lannisters.  Taking on the crown of the north was too much at that point to take on especially if they wanted to include riverrun in the North.  The North can throw back attacks, but the Riverlands cannot be defended indefinitely without some alliance to the south.  

The course was clear to do what his Father would have wished and that was to pledge fealty to Stannis and combine forces.

[Nightfyre]

Nobody gave him a chance. He only really made one bad decision with the marriage contract and that was it. He had many of his father's qualities and would have grown up and learned from Ned's mistakes. He would have made a great king.