177 replies to this topic

[Gurkhal]

Scootydowop, on 13 March 2012 - 05:57 AM, said:

Everyone seems to see Tywin as some great leader(and he was) yet while he was controlling the ship, he lost a brother in law, two nephews, a royal grandson and then his own life. Kevan soon followed.
Thats just Lannister blood.
The pride is maimed at this point.

There were losses for Team Lannister no doubt about it, but while the House lost some, it never came into danger for its existance in the same way that the Starks are.

Scootydowop, on 13 March 2012 - 05:57 AM, said:

Meanwhile only Robb was betrayed by opportunistic bannermen, and died.
Winterfell was sacked and burned, but granite doesn't burn easily. And the pack is still mostly alive, even though long leagues separate them.

Well, I think that Jon isn't look so good at the moment, although I can't imagine that Martin would kill off that character at this time. But you are right that most of the Stark losses have in many regards been superficial.

Scootydowop, on 13 March 2012 - 05:57 AM, said:

Robb made a poor decision in trusting Theon and marrying Jeyne, but aside from that, he was dealing with circumstances beyond his ken.
And his legacy is decided by those who fight on for his families sake.

Yes and no. I think that his legacy as a failure of a king will live on south of the Neck regardless of how it goes in the North. The remaining Starks may save his memory in the North but I don't think they'll be able to make much of an influence in the South.

Scootydowop, on 13 March 2012 - 05:57 AM, said:

Robb made mistakes, but what lord/king hasn't? Ask those he left behind if he was a good king, and then get the answer.
The wolves will return.

Since most of those he left behind were left behind to die in a ditch as winter set in I'm not sure there will be alot of people to ask. But while everyone makes mistakes, Robb's mistakes were very costly and were not once in a while but rather regular.

[Buried Treasure]

Ojji, on 13 March 2012 - 08:26 AM, said:

Yet Master Luwin was sure Robb would allow Theon to take the black, after he had sacked Winterfell and "killed Bran and Rickon", and I'm sure Master Luwin has some better insight than you do.

Robb suggesting that Karstark take the Black would have appeared weak -it would have seemed like Robb was trying to find a way out of a hard duty. But Lord Rickard knew full well that men who join the NW are pardoned their crimes & he could have asked Robb to allow him to do this - and granting mercy after it has been asked would not have made Robb appear weak. Lord Rickard remained defiant to the end, and in his grief and anger was keener on dying than asking anything of Robb.

The same distinction applies with Theon. Maester Luwin isn't saying that Robb will want to send Theon to the Wall rather than killing him, he is saying that if Theon asks then Robb will honour convention and permit it.

[Siziel]

A Bad King but an amazing General and
a GREAT MAN!

[Peach Fuzz]

Gurkhal, on 13 March 2012 - 08:16 AM, said:

I don't agree. Tywin was moving partly in the direction that Robb wanted but Tywin is a far more cautious and experienced commander than either Jaime or Stafford Lannister. Hence I wouldn't think that a suprise attack against Tywin would be necessity be successful and it could've just as well ended up with Robb trapped in the West by Tywin.
He didnt say he d defeat him in battle. He went along the lines of we were all ahorse while the Lannisters were mostly foot he said we d lure him to the west and try to slip in behind him to block his retreat either to force battle or keep him there to live of Lannister land

Also Edmure didn't "go hero" but followed his orders in the best way that he could and I don't think that Robb's inability to communicate with his sub-commanders should be put on those sub-commanders' shoulders.
I disagree Edmure didnt have the wit hold rivverun and go and give battle as they pass are two different orders. Think on this quick imagine Hoster was fit and not Edmure would he have done the same thing?


All I can see is a Tywin determined to do a Castamere on the Starks and that's it. Tywin isn't hot-tempered guy and I can't for my life see that he would be provoked so easily. With Jaime's head up at Riverrun I would think that the war between the Starks and Iron Throne would get a whole lot more savage with alot more prisoners murdered for in acts of revenge and counter-revenge.
At this time why should the starks be afraid? Im talking after Ned got beheaded i was expecting the same to happen to Ser Jamie. Robb at that tyme had the north and the rivver lords on his side. Even Lord Tarly said about cutting his head of i thought Lord Tarly is one of the greatest soldiers in westeros. If anything if Ser Jamie ended up headless Robb is in a strong postion Riverrun is a bastard to besiege.

Also note that it would have a good chance to start and esculation of both sides killing their prisoners and while Tywin would no doubt give Joffrey his share of lessons when that time comes, it would be Robb who decided to kill Jaime and thus the blame would fall primarily on House Stark as far as Tywin would be concerned. That's what I think anyway.
True but they executed Lord Eddard. I thought that would be reason enough to start the execution of high borns.


Problem is that she would still have Tyrion to rein her in.

*chuckles* this is cersei we are talking about?

[Agromono]

Robb was an amazing strategist but I think he would have made a poor governor. His moral compass was way too well calibrated.

[Gurkhal]

The Bastards Bastard, on 14 March 2012 - 07:14 AM, said:

*chuckles* this is cersei we are talking about?

I would suppose it is.

Agromono, on 14 March 2012 - 07:14 AM, said:

Robb was an amazing strategist but I think he would have made a poor governor. His moral compass was way too well calibrated.

I don't think it was his morale compass that was wrong as much as that Eddard don't seem to have taught Robb anything else except the morale compass thing. Robb just strikes me as guy who only has his morale compass to go on and lacks a real understanding for both why people do immorale things and how the whole socio-political system works in practice.

[The Frosted King]

For the region he was ruling, Robb likely would've been fine.
The north for the most part will take care of itself, so long as the leader maintains a long shadow.

Robb made two mistakes several months apart from each other that cost him the war.
And if Robb killed Jaime he'd be feared and hated, but if Cersei killed Sansa she'd only be hated.
A knight captured in war is very different from a highborn maiden who never held a sword in her life, and the deaths of the two would garner vastly different reactions.
Cersei would alienate many would be allies taking that route.

[Gurkhal]

Scootydowop, on 14 March 2012 - 07:22 AM, said:

For the region he was ruling, Robb likely would've been fine.
The north for the most part will take care of itself, so long as the leader maintains a long shadow.

Robb made two mistakes several months apart from each other that cost him the war.
And if Robb killed Jaime he'd be feared and hated, but if Cersei killed Sansa she'd only be hated.
A knight captured in war is very different from a highborn maiden who never held a sword in her life, and the deaths of the two would garner vastly different reactions.
Cersei would alienate many would be allies taking that route.

Why would anyone fear Robb for him executing prisoners? That would give him alot of hate and possibly start a chain reaction where the two sides started to systematically murdering their prisoners. And also, as long as Robb held Jaime he had a bargin chip he could use if things started going South for him. Just because Joffrey was to stupid to understand that don't mean that everyone else wouldn't be able to figure that out.

[The Drunkard]

I think he would've been a good King in the North. The south? Nope.

[Peach Fuzz]

Gurkhal, on 14 March 2012 - 07:26 AM, said:

Why would anyone fear Robb for him executing prisoners? That would give him alot of hate and possibly start a chain reaction where the two sides started to systematically murdering their prisoners. And also, as long as Robb held Jaime he had a bargin chip he could use if things started going South for him. Just because Joffrey was to stupid to understand that don't mean that everyone else wouldn't be able to figure that out.

Why would people hate him for cutting of the kingslayers head? War is war?!

P.S you no Ser Jamie isnt one of the well loved heroes in westeros i dont think his death would be mourned by many

[Gurkhal]

The Bastards Bastard, on 14 March 2012 - 07:38 AM, said:

Why would people hate him for cutting of the kingslayers head? War is war?!

P.S you no Ser Jamie isnt one of the well loved heroes in westeros i dont think his death would be mourned by many

Jaime was beloved by his family and they are the main enemy of the Starks and probably one of the three top most powerful Houses in Westeros. Also note that Tyrion reflects that Jaime had a talent for making people want to fight for him and I have got the impression that he was at least somewhat respectable among the nobility of the Westerlands.

[Peach Fuzz]

Gurkhal, on 14 March 2012 - 07:44 AM, said:

Jaime was beloved by his family and they are the main enemy of the Starks and probably one of the three top most powerful Houses in Westeros. Also note that Tyrion reflects that Jaime had a talent for making people want to fight for him and I have got the impression that he was at least somewhat respectable among the nobility of the Westerlands.

True but to be hated by your enemies isn't worrying considering your at war with them. The Lannisters are the least loved house in Westeros nearly universally so. From brienne who comes from Tarth to the Starks in the north .

[ed Lannister]

The Red Wake, on 24 February 2012 - 10:30 AM, said:

He was a Stark through and through. If you need a hard-ass battle commander to win your wars, go find the Starks. If you want a good King who knows how to play the Game of Thrones look for a Lannister.

Robb was a great general. Any battle in his control was won, but the war wasn't lost of the battlefield. Perhaps he could have been a good king, but he was very inexperienced. Leaving him at Winterfell with his mother was supposed to teach him that side of being a Lord, but that was unfortunately cut short.

I don't think you can judge him on the same terms as Tywin and Stannis. Both are old, experienced men who had their won game-plans from almost the very start (obviously with varying success). Robb on the other hand had his responsibility forced on his shoulders very early on, he couldn't have predicted the Greatjon would proclaim him the King of Winter.

Why excuse robb coz of his age...both tywin and stannis accomplished great things around the same age as robb ...tywin destroying the tarbeck-reynes rebellion the first time it happened..stannis held out a successful siege for his bro robert for almost a year both againt experienced  and older leaders..lord tarbeck,lord reynes in tywin's case and both lived on for longer.... so analyze robb for his decision making skills when he's thrust to a position of responsibility and leave the age excuse out....

[The Mother of The Others]

uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh,

good?

Good king.  Why not.    Strong in some areas, deficient in others, but that's the same with all of us.   On the whole, he does his fathers proud.

[ed Lannister]

livewyre, on 24 February 2012 - 09:38 PM, said:

IMO Robb wasn't a terrible king just had the worse luck out of everyone minus Renly. He had so many things working against him that there was no way he could succeed. Littlefinger had Lyssa sit on her hands instead of joining her family in the war. I believe Tywin had an alliance with Bolton as far back as clash. I'm not buying Roose happened to be in the right place at the right time to have Harrenhall fall into his hands. I think him recalling the men that Robb left at the twins was the initial stages of planning the Red Wedding. No one saw Balon deciding he would rather have rocks in the north rather than gold in Lannisport. Then Stannis and shadow babies kill Renly, break his host, then lose on the Blackwater.

Even after all of that, along with him marrying Jenye, he still had a leg to stand on till red wedding.

People saying he should have bent a knee to the Lannisters obviously don't understand the north. Given that Robb is dead and they still haven't bent a knee. The Boltons may have and those who have relatives held by the Freys. But as evidenced by Lord Manderly, once their family is safe they are on the warpath.

.....this thing about bending the knee..... many starks did it to the iron throne and lived to rule the north those that refused to bend the knee to the holder of the iron throne at the time during their lifetimes paid dearly brandon,ned,rickard...robb should have done so if he learnt anything from their past

non of the  houses left in the north are rebelling and crowning themselves new KOTN....manderly is gathering his forces to be a major power(possibly be a lord paramount of the north swearing fealty to the iron throne)boltons are in the same mind frame...in their end game plan they plan to finally bend the knee to the iron throne

[Completely Headless Ned]

He was really inexperienced with ruling and things like that. I know that there is no real way to train to be king, but he didn't have any experience at all.  While Catlyn knew that giving up Theon was a bad idea, No one thought  that he would flip and go after Winterfell. While marrying jeyne was his worst mistake, I think the Greyjoys taking over the north and Ramsay destroying Winterfell played a huge part in his undoing. If they don't do that then he doesn't have to go back up north which meant having to meet up at the twins again.

[Buried Treasure]

ed Lannister, on 14 March 2012 - 03:40 PM, said:

.....this thing about bending the knee..... many starks did it to the iron throne and lived to rule the north those that refused to bend the knee to the holder of the iron throne at the time during their lifetimes paid dearly brandon,ned,rickard...robb should have done so if he learnt anything from their past

'Harrion. His name is Harrion.' Robb laughed bitterly. 'A king had best know the names of his enemies, don't you think?'
   The Blackfish looked at him shrewdly. 'You know that for a certainty? That this will make young Karstark your enemy?'
   'What else would he be? I am about to kill his father, he's not like to thank me'
'He might. There are sons who hate their fathers, and in a stroke you will make him Lord of Karhold.'
   Robb shook his head. 'Even if Harrion were that sort, he could never openly forgive his father's killer. His own men would turn on him. These are northmen, Uncle. The north remembers.'

Robb's talking here about what will happen when he kills Rickard Karstark, but he may as well be speaking of his own relationship with Joffrey. Surrender to the Lannisters was not possible after Ned was killed. If that hadn't happened, yes, Robb could have bent the knee - and renewing oaths of fealty might have been part of the terms of a peace treaty.

Edited by Buried Treasure, 14 March 2012 - 07:06 PM.

[Frey Pie]

Biggest mistake in my opinion was not sending someone to the Tyrells after Renlys death.I still think they could have been brought in not as vassals but as allies.Give whatever price is asked.Whoever then won on the Blackwater would be dealt with easily enough

[jarl the climber]

Gurkhal, on 14 March 2012 - 07:44 AM, said:

Jaime was beloved by his family and they are the main enemy of the Starks and probably one of the three top most powerful Houses in Westeros. Also note that Tyrion reflects that Jaime had a talent for making people want to fight for him and I have got the impression that he was at least somewhat respectable among the nobility of the Westerlands.

As far as anyone knows Jamie has kept his vow of celibacy, he hasn't slept with anyone but cersei and it might be one of the reasons that people do not beleive the incest rumor, the impression I got from AFFC was that Jamie was held in high regard by the Western Lords. Since Robb is dead at a young age after a short rule killed by people who were once his allies relects poorly on his reign and his ability as a king. He did a good job commanding his calvary, the infantry slowed him down, he gave command of that to Roose Bolton, who frightened him, and later betrayed him.

[James Arryn]

I get why people think marrying Elizabeth Woodville was a mistake, but I don't get where losing the North/trusting Theon was. What exactly were his many options at the time, time itself being crucial.

I think too many people fall into the trap of deciding on the merits of a decision based only on the outcome. Like Renly was unwise to stack his better army/support/appeal/etc. against Stannis is proven by shadow-killer, etc.

I think one of the things GRRM tries to illustrate the most is that being right and winning often have almost nothing to do with each other.