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Mirri Maz Duur's shadows

Mirri Maz Duur Jon Snow

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38 replies to this topic

#1 TheHedgeWizard

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 02:52 PM

Just finished a reread of AGOT and the part where mirri maz duur is using blood magic to resurrect Drogo there are shadows dancing one of a Great Wolf and the other a man wreathed in flames. I was wondering if anyone else thought these were supposed to represent Jon Snow? anyone else think that or come to that conclusion?
I'm sure this has been brought up before like everything else on these forums but i couldn't really find anything on it with a simple google search.

AGOT Paperback pg.715

#2 protar

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 03:32 PM

I assume the man wreathed in flames would refer to Jon's ressurection by Mel's fire magic? When I read the wolf I did think "Stark?"

#3 TheHedgeWizard

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 03:49 PM

yes i either thought "the man wreathed in flames" is jon's eventual ressurection by Mel or Stannis' relationship with Mel.

#4 ghost the direwolf

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 04:21 PM

Some people think it is the wight that jon burnt to same Mormont.

#5 TheHedgeWizard

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 07:26 PM

alright that makes more sense. thanks

#6 Turkey Jack

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 04:16 PM

The shadows are probably the dead and the great wolf is more than likely Ned Stark chapters not necessarily flowing in chronological order, man wreathed in fire is harder, maybe Dondarrion before he is resurrected but Danys time line would be quite skewed for it to be one of Mels sacrifice

#7 Vic-tarion Rattlehead

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 02:17 PM

There are 6 direwolves in ASOIAF till now, and plenty of people who are burnt alive (including Rattleshirt, Stannis's Hand and Miri Maz Duur herself). But I can not see a connection to Jon here (I'm also re-reading GOT now, but I'm only at the second Ned's chapter - so maybe your point will be proven in Danny's last chapter, I dunno...).

#8 lcdmarie

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 07:46 PM

Maybe the shadows were of Ned's brother and father.
I think that someone called Brandon the real wolf of Winterfell
and Aerys burned Rickard Stark.

#9 Fire Eater

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 08:16 PM

The man wreathed in flames is wighted Othor when Jon throws the burning drapes on him, and the wolf is Ghost.

Edited by Fire Eater, 24 March 2012 - 08:17 PM.


#10 Liar

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 02:23 PM

"The dead will dance here tonight" So no foresahdowing (unless, you konow, valar morghulis)
Brandon and Rickard make sense.

#11 Lady Faceless

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 04:55 PM

The first thing I thought of was that it foreshadowed the rise of the two kings Robb Stark and Stannis Baratheon. But then where was Renly and Balon?

Later I came to the conclusion it might represent the Old Gods and the Lord of Light.

#12 Jovem Corvo

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 08:55 PM

What is Mirri magic? We don't know for sure if she adores the old or the new gods. Maybe its none of them either.

I don't think the wolf and the man in flames could mean some event to happen in further books. Mirri doesn't has this kind of power, does she?

True to be told, I don't think it has any special meaning /dunno.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dunno:' />

#13 the_one_who_was_promised

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 07:51 PM

Just finished a reread of AGOT and the part where mirri maz duur is using blood magic to resurrect Drogo there are shadows dancing one of a Great Wolf and the other a man wreathed in flames. I was wondering if anyone else thought these were supposed to represent Jon Snow? anyone else think that or come to that conclusion?
I'm sure this has been brought up before like everything else on these forums but i couldn't really find anything on it with a simple google search.

AGOT Paperback pg.715


I agree with you. I have just been re-reading Game of Thrones and second time round, this jumped out at me.

Also, during MMD's chanting, Irri says to Dany; "she knows the secrets of the bloody bed".

Make of that what you will. I can't see a connection between this statement and Drogo/ Dany, so my conclusion is that Mirri Maz Duur is referring to Jon Snow being the secret of the bloody bed - in the sense that he is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son.

The question is, why would MMD even bring this up during the blood magic? What connection does Drogo's resurrection have with Jon Snow? It's very intriguing.

#14 Ranger Kragin

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 03:29 AM

The question is, why would MMD even bring this up during the blood magic? What connection does Drogo's resurrection have with Jon Snow? It's very intriguing.


Well, she doesn't really "resurrect" Drogo, does she?
As a matter of fact, Mirri's intent is to:

1. Take revenge on the Dothraki for burning her temple
2. avoiding that the Stallion who mounts the world burns more cities

The stallion who mounts the world will burn no cities now. His khalasar shall trample no nations into dust.


So she makes sure that Drogo and his offsprings are unable to raid the Khalasar and help Dany to regain the Iron Throne.
A Dothraki on the Iron Throne would bring devastation in the whole known world, according to Mirri. And this is what she wants to prevent.

Then during the ritual, she sees Rikard and Brandon (respectively the burning man and the big wolf) and soon after she claims she knows the secret of the birthing bed.
I believe this is one of the many clues (and a strong one at that) GRRM sows here and there to make us aware of the true heritage of Jon Snow.

Few chapters before (the very last of Eddard) Ned recalls the promise made to her sister in her bed of blood (whatever bed of blood may be)
If we connect the "bed of blood" to the "birthing bed" and that it is something that has to do with the House Stark, we also know (from Mirri) that this is a secret linked to a birth and to the House Stark.

...and since the main theme in Mirri's magic is that "only death can pay for life", we can speculate (a very thin speculation, I admit) that the bed of blood paid death for life. So someone died while another one was born. So Lyanna died while giving birth to a child in Ned's presence. And this child might as well be Ned's bastard.

Edited by Ranger Kragin, 16 September 2013 - 03:41 AM.


#15 The Snowfyre Chorus

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 08:49 PM

Nice. An interesting scene to re-read in light of later developments. I doubt these shadows connect so cleanly to concrete plot lines (historical exposition, characters not present, etc). More likely, the shadows ("a great wolf," "a man wreathed in flames") foreshadow the stirring/awakening of old powers and spirit beings worshipped by men: the old gods of the North, and flaming R'hllor. (Very interesting that MMD is singing as these shadows dance - a literal/spiritual "Song of Ice and Fire" perhaps?).

Anyway, it's not hard to see this scene functioning as the re-awakening of gods (or the loosing of demons) into the world. For a concrete example of how this is embodied in the plot, it is MMD's magic (and Dany's response) that ultimately results in the reappearance of dragons after 100+ years.

#16 callmedodge

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 12:33 AM

"The dead will dance here tonight" So no foresahdowing (unless, you konow, valar morghulis)
Brandon and Rickard make sense.


This. The shadows are people who are ALREADY dead. The Great Wolf could be anyone from the dead direwolf mother to a dead Stark and the man on fire could be anyone who died on fire.

It`s not the wighted Other that Jon set on fire as that man was already dead. He didn`t die in a fire.

#17 Paul Stark

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 08:51 AM

Could it be Rhaegar and Lyanna? I haven't checked the actual book, but I think it says a "man" wreathed in fire, but doesn't mention the sex of the wolf.

#18 Daphnaerys Seaworth

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 01:53 PM

Could it be Rhaegar and Lyanna? I haven't checked the actual book, but I think it says a "man" wreathed in fire, but doesn't mention the sex of the wolf.


YES EXACTLY!!!!
The wolf could be Lyanna which makes the man wreathed in fire a Targaryen, Rhaegar of course.
Makes more sense to me than that the phrase could mean any wolf and any man who died in fire.
This also makes more sense to the phrase which says that she knows the secrets of the bloodbed.

#19 TheManyFacedGod

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 02:19 PM

Nice. An interesting scene to re-read in light of later developments. I doubt these shadows connect so cleanly to concrete plot lines (historical exposition, characters not present, etc). More likely, the shadows ("a great wolf," "a man wreathed in flames") foreshadow the stirring/awakening of old powers and spirit beings worshipped by men: the old gods of the North, and flaming R'hllor. (Very interesting that MMD is singing as these shadows dance - a literal/spiritual "Song of Ice and Fire" perhaps?).

Anyway, it's not hard to see this scene functioning as the re-awakening of gods (or the loosing of demons) into the world. For a concrete example of how this is embodied in the plot, it is MMD's magic (and Dany's response) that ultimately results in the reappearance of dragons after 100+ years.


^This makes more sense than all this babel about dead starks, R+L=J and wights.

#20 The Snowfyre Chorus

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 07:08 AM

^This makes more sense than all this babel about dead starks, R+L=J and wights.


Thanks. Just a gentle nudge back toward sanity, I thought. Actually, if I'd been a bit more thorough in my re-reading of this chapter, I'd have seen that Mirri Maz Duur states pretty clearly (i.e., obviously) what is happening before Dany exits the tent:

"Once I begin to sing, no one must enter this tent. My song will wake powers old and dark. The dead will dance here this night."

(So the shadow dancers seen from outside the tent are these "powers old and dark" - not concrete, individual characters living half a world away.)

The most interesting question raised by this scene (for me, anyway) is how it informs our understanding of the supernatural in ASOIAF - whether and how gods/demons live and die. MMD says the "dead will dance." But this attempt to save Drogo ends up on a collision course with Dany's labor... and when all is said and done MMD reports that the "creature" drawn forth from Dany's womb was "monstrous... twisted... [and] had been dead for years." In other words, it looks like someone pulled the old switcheroo.

I think someone in ADwD commented that death comes "even" to the gods. (I thought it might have been the kindly man speaking to Arya, but I looked and could not find it, so I'm not sure. Anyway...) When I read that, I remembered this bloodmagic scene and wondered if one of these "old powers" was reborn (i.e., released into the world) by way of MMD's spell and Dany's labor. If "only death can pay for life," we know Dany's child received death in spades, and we know Drogo did not benefit from that death - then where is this life that was paid for?

Anyway. Those last 3 Dany chapters in AGoT provide a lot of food for thought.

Edited by The Snowfyre Chorus, 27 September 2013 - 07:15 AM.