219 replies to this topic

[Fragile Bird]

I think we can all agree that Joffrey is a seriously disturbed young man.  What we can't agree on is why an innocent child grew into, dare we say, a monster.  When the topic of Joffrey comes up in threads, very strong views are inevitably presented on what kind of a person he is and how he got there.  And there are a lot of very, very unsympathetic views on his character.

So how did Joffrey grow into the individual he was?

Was it because Robert couldn't relate to his own child (or so he thinks) the same way he could relate to some of his bastards, and therefore created a child so hungry for father love that Joffrey got twisted?

Was it because Cersei so spoiled her first born and gave him free reign to grow wild that he went from being a royal flower to royal poison ivy?

Were they both to blame for hating each other so much there was no love to give to their child?

Was it just genetics?  Why aren't Tommen and Myrcella twisted then?

Does the genetic father have to shoulder some blame?  Should Jaime have ignored Cersei's instructions not to involve himself in Joffrey's life?  Couldn't he have done it in the role of "Uncle Jaime"?

I'd be happy to hear the full range of opinion on this topic, because the range is huge.

[Queen Cersei I]

Q: Who is to blame for Joffrey's character?

A: Ser anti-social personality disorder.

[Fragile Bird]

Queen Cersei I, on 24 February 2012 - 09:37 PM, said:

Q: Who is to blame for Joffrey's character?

A: Ser anti-social personality disorder.

Well, yeah, I'd agree with that, but how about some detail!  

[Bastard Walder]

Couldn't he just be born a psychopath?

Probably not.

[ServantOnIce]

Based on the information in the books only several folks are to blame

1. His parents for being twins and being a product of vile incest.

2. His cuckolded father Robert . . Robert was a horrible father as he was a King.

3. His position of power.  If Joffrey was born poor he would haven't survived because he was a bully but not tough at all. Alas, he was born rich into the richest family and his cuckold father was the king.

[trins]

i would like to believe that he was born as a devilspawn, but i think its more likely that his behaviour wasn't checked while he was growing up- like he was born a kind of evil, but could've gone either way if Cersi and Robert showered him with love, affection, and stern disciple.  In Tyron's chapter in COK, i remember Tyrion confused that Cersi completely oblivious to his bad behaviour and manner of speaking (when Joffery was rudely speaking to Sansa).  Then add Robert's adverse reaction to Joffery's existence, and vola you Prince Shithead Joffery.

[ServantOnIce]

Bastard Walder, on 24 February 2012 - 09:46 PM, said:

Couldn't he just be born a psychopath?

Probably not.

Good Ol nurture vs. nature . .  the oldest argument in time . . .

Edited by ServantOnIce, 24 February 2012 - 09:51 PM.

[Drinking Cersei's Tears]

I lean towards him being born a shit.  How else do you explain the other two children, who are as sweet as can be?

[Fragile Bird]

ServantOnIce, on 24 February 2012 - 09:51 PM, said:

Good Ol nurture vs. nature . .  the oldest argument in time . . .

Nature v. nurture, yes, but who's responsibility was the nurturing?  Do we blame it on mom?  Don't we always?  Even if Robert was a crappy father, couldn't Cersei have raised a perfect prince - the other two are fine.  Did she ruin him?

[Noimporta]

All of the above.

[The King in the South]

Matt 2108, on 24 February 2012 - 10:01 PM, said:

I lean towards him being born a shit.  How else do you explain the other two children, who are as sweet as can be?

Now being abused by their father and enabled by their mother?

To the OP, it's a combination of things. There was definetely something "off" from the get go, but that trait was only amplifyed by the actions of others.

Edited by The King in the South, 24 February 2012 - 10:25 PM.

[atia-]

I think Joffrey is a big reminder to let us know what jerks (mild word) the Lannisters can be.  If he was a sweet angel like his two younger siblings, he would have been boring to read about.  Plus, it looks like he got the most love/attention from Cersei than the other kids, which isn't a good influence.  It was just a combination of genes/circumstances...

Edited by dannister, 24 February 2012 - 10:11 PM.

[Queen Cersei I]

Quote

Based on the information in the books only several folks are to blame

1. His parents for being twins and being a product of vile incest.

2. His cuckolded father Robert . . Robert was a horrible father as he was a King.

3. His position of power.  If Joffrey was born poor he would haven't survived because he was a bully but not tough at all. Alas, he was born rich into the richest family and his cuckold father was the king.

I agree with this, however, I think Joffrey's biggest problem, in the end, was his innate sociopathy. The access to power and truly horrible parents (and role models) he gets on both sides cetainly did not help. However, those who argue that Joffrey was raised, rather than born bad are not really taking the boys extensive sadism, total lack of remorse, and clear inability to feel empathy or truly connect to others into account.

Sure, he was a kid. And sure, many kids, given the great leeway and poor direction that Joffrey recieved from both his parents would have run wild. Having access to as much power as joffrey did would also be problematic for most kids. In a situation like that, many kids would act out and be out of control, both drunk on power and (unconsciously) crying out for dirrection and attention from his elders.

However, from looking at his actions, this was not Joffrey. Joffrey was not wild or misbehaving-- he cut open and mutilated a cat as a small child. He did not simply act foolishly or even commit some major misbehaviors while in popwer-- he ordered a little girl publically stripped and brutally beaten, over and over again, expressing deep satisfaction and no remorse whatsoever. He didn't just foolishly have a guy whom he percieved to be his enemy killed; he had the guy killed, than taunted and tortured his daughter in the most gratuitous fashion.

In the books, we don't see Joffrey acting out, being wild, misbehaving, or even commiting some seriously immoral deeds that, if given no guidence, many people would do. No, we see him frequently, graphically torturing and harming others in a way that, spoilt or not, is simply NOT NORMAL.

Don't get me wrong-- Joffrey's upbringing did him no favors. His position of power and privilege did nothing for his sense of entitlement. However, in the end, these things merely exasperated, rather than caused, Joffrey's unspeakably cruel deeds and behavior.

It would entirely for a boy to be spoilt, horrible, but not a sociopath. We see that, imo, with little Robert Arryn. But we don't see it with joff, who is seriously innately sick, mentally and morally speaking.

Edited by Queen Cersei I, 24 February 2012 - 10:18 PM.

[seeyouintee]

Classic nurture vs nature argument. Joffrey should bear responsibility for his actions, but so should Cersei. Robert was a neglectful lecher, but Cersei is a tick away from being a sociopath.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

The King in the South, on 24 February 2012 - 10:10 PM, said:

Now being abused by their father and cuckcolded by their mother?

To the OP, it's a combination of things. There was definetely something "off" from the get go, but that trait was only amplifyed by the actions of others.

I'm not sure you are using that word 'cuckold' accurately. As far as I know, it is only used to describe a woman cheating on a man she is married to. Is there another definition I don't know?

[The King in the South]

OnionAhaiReborn, on 24 February 2012 - 10:22 PM, said:

I'm not sure you are using that word 'cuckold' accurately. As far as I know, it is only used to describe a woman cheating on a man she is married to. Is there another definition I don't know?

Yeah wow, I just saw that. So freaking tired atm
edit: It's actually a noun if I recall, not an adjective. blahhhh

Edited by The King in the South, 24 February 2012 - 10:31 PM.

[Fragile Bird]

@ Queen Cersei I

Hmmm......little Robert Arryn wants to see people fly out the moon door.  Maybe under Lysa he would have turned out like Joff in a few years.

Which gets back to the question - is it really mainly Cersei's fault that Joffrey has gone off the rails?  She certainly is turning a blind eye to his abuse of Sansa.  I mean, she must know what's going on, shouldn't she?  She has her spies, doesn't she?

[Maroucia]

I remember Cercei mentioning Joffrey not having many (or any) friends his age to play with while growing up... Being bored and by yourself never helps sanity. That being said, he probably was born a shit as well...

[Queen Cersei I]

Fragile Bird, on 24 February 2012 - 10:30 PM, said:

@ Queen Cersei I

Hmmm......little Robert Arryn wants to see people fly out the moon door.  Maybe under Lysa he would have turned out like Joff in a few years.

Yes, this was indeed creepy. However, a few key differences:

Robert Arryn fully believed the man he wanted to see killed was pure evil (his mommy had told him) and had murdered his father. Under these circumstances, it is not surprising that Robert wanted Tyrion to be killed. The "make him fly!" thing was creepy, but, IMO, by no means the pointless, explicit sadism Joffrey regularly displayed towards all around him.

Furthermore, in later scenes, though the kid is spoiled and screwed up, we do see him express some forms of empathy, remorse, etc. He is a brat, but not truly sadistic or evil.

As for Lysa turning Robert into Joffrey-- don't see that happening....

[K1NGSLAYER]

I think there are a number of reasons for Joffrey being such a shit, Cersei letting him do as he pleases and turning a blind eye whenever he does something bad, Robert ignoring him, I think if Robert had of payed attention to him and treated him better than Joffrey would behave much better. I think the main reason though is that Joffrey was just born the way he is, sure if his parents hadn't of treated him so bad (or in Cersei's case good) then he would have turned out a bit better but at the end of the day I think that no matter how good his parents treated him he would still have turned out as a sociopath.