219 replies to this topic

[Jeanine Kelley]

Cersei is the main cause for Joffery's evil.  Joffery was groomed for rule and Tommen and Myrcella were supposed to obey.  Cersei would never have anticipated his death and , thankfully, had never taught Tommen and Myrcella to be rulers.  She was proud of Joffery's stubborness and defiance and encouraged those behaviors.   Believe it or not Cersei was a horrible Queen Regent and was no fit example of the qualities needed to rule the kingdom, but she took it upon herself to teach him how to be a king.  Keeping Sandor Clegane, who is an awesome character but morally bankrupt to a degree, to mentor the young Joffery did not help subdue the boy's cruel streak.  The boy's heroes were a drunken father, a power hungry mother, and a man that lived for battle and blood.  Alone he was unable to enforce anything, but with the Hound at his side, his father's indifference, and his mother's venegance, no one was going to deny him anything.  And we can't forget the whipping boy.  A lack of empathy and the lesson that his bad actions never hurt him, but instead hurt some serving boy he didn't care about gave him a warped sense of consequences.

[Silmarien]

JonHo, on 25 February 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

Doesn't make sense how Tommen and Myrcella turned out alright. Tommen has a good heart, a sweet boy. Myrcella is really mature for her age and intelligent. But I have the feeling they were kind of ignored, especially by Robert.

They were ignored, not groomed for rule by Cersei.  That is the difference, I think.  They weren't as spoiled little shits, in other words, as (smaller) kids.  I'm kinda sad for them, considering Cersei's prophesy and all.... :'-(

[Dark Rider]

JonHo, on 25 February 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

Doesn't make sense how Tommen and Myrcella turned out alright. Tommen has a good heart, a sweet boy. Myrcella is really mature for her age and intelligent. But I have the feeling they were kind of ignored, especially by Robert.

Well, Tommen is still a small child.  Although boys need the male example throughout their lives it's when they're pre-teens and teenagers they need it the most.  When a boy is about to become a man he needs a Father most or at least a male rolemodel.  Tommen might have turned out just as bad as Joffrey over time.  Afterall, we don't know what Joffrey was like at Tommen's age he might have been just as nice and sweet.

Myrcella is a woman. She is raised to be a lady and I'm sure has been well cultivated into doing that.  Cersei knows how to raise a Lady, because she is one. She doesn't need to teach Myrcella to be cut throat, because women in her world don't have much power.  Basically, if you're raising a little girl you just have to make sure they turn out as Lady like and beautiful as possible so that you can marry them off to someone of high station.  Most girls who grow up without Fathers probably have difficulty understanding men and may have issues in their romantic relationships later on, but in this world you don't date, hook-up in college, and so forth you get married off in carefully contracted marriages so that was never going to be an issue with her really.

Edited by Dark Rider, 25 February 2012 - 02:54 PM.

[Lady Katherine]

A combo of multiple factors....

Did Joffrey have some form of mental illness...most likely, yeah
Cersei spoiling him rotten....definitely
Being raised by Cersei, who also most likely has some form of mental illness....probably
Being ignored by and a stranger to his "father", Robert....definitely
Being doted on and never disciplined by anyone (except maybe Tyrion)....definitely

Everything just came together to make an altogether bad situation and kid...

[Dracarya]

Dark Rider, on 25 February 2012 - 02:22 PM, said:

Well, Tommen is still a small child.  Although boys need the male example throughout their lives it's when they're pre-teens and teenagers they need it the most.  When a boy is about to become a man he needs a Father most or at least a male rolemodel.  Tommen might have turned out just as bad as Joffrey over time.  Afterall, we don't know what Joffrey was like at Tommen's age he might have been just as nice and sweet.

Myrcella is a woman. She is raised to be a lady and I'm sure has been well cultivated into doing that.  Cersei knows how to raise a Lady, because she is one. She doesn't need to teach Myrcella to be cut throat, because women in her world don't have much power.  Basically, if you're raising a little girl you just have to make sure they turn out as Lady like and beautiful as possible so that you can marry them off to someone of high station.  Most girls who grow up without Fathers probably have difficulty understanding men and may have issues in their romantic relationships later on, but in this world you don't date, hook-up in college, and so forth you get married off in carefully arrainged marriages so that was never going to be an issue with her really.

While I agree with a lot of what you've said, your assumption that most girls who grow up without fathers go on to have issues in relationships isn't fair. I grew up with an awful father and ended up with relationship problems, so I think it depends on the hand you're dealt. For Myrcella, I think her education on how to be a lady was probably given by a septa; I don't think Cersei had much of a hand in bringing up Tommen and Myrcella, thankfully. I don't think Robert took much notice of them either, so it is surprising they grew up to be pretty good kids, without either parent really in their lives. Then again, we've seen how Cersei and Robert "parent", so it's likely that their tutors were much more skilled in bringing kids up in a decent way. Tommen is quiet and a little withdrawn, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

[Dark Rider]

brashcandy, on 25 February 2012 - 01:34 PM, said:

I'd argue that Joffrey is very different from those types. His wasn't simply a trouble maker, or a misunderstood, wayward boy. There is something profoundly sociopathic and disturbing about Joffrey's behaviour. He's the type that could easily develop into a serial killer.

I don't see him that way. To my memory he never killed anyone with his own two hands. He's a bully pure and simple and a real whimp at the end of the day. I don't think he would have been as mean to Sansa as he was if it hadn't been for that incident with the Wolf and the Butcher's boy on the trip south to Kingdlanding from Winterfell.  That embarassed him and he was determined to embarass Sansa and be mean to her for it, because he couldn't stand that she had seen him for as weak as he really was.

[Light a wight tonight]

The Joff apologists seem to want to forget that at age 13 he was ordering men to fight to the death. This is not a young troublemaker; this is a deeply warped personality. No way could  mere neglectful parenting be the cause of this. He was wrong at birth and no effort was made to correct it.

[Dark Rider]

Fire&Blood, on 25 February 2012 - 02:34 PM, said:

While I agree with a lot of what you've said, your assumption that most girls who grow up without fathers go on to have issues in relationships isn't fair. I grew up with an awful father and ended up with relationship problems, so I think it depends on the hand you're dealt. For Myrcella, I think her education on how to be a lady was probably given by a septa; I don't think Cersei had much of a hand in bringing up Tommen and Myrcella, thankfully. I don't think Robert took much notice of them either, so it is surprising they grew up to be pretty good kids, without either parent really in their lives. Then again, we've seen how Cersei and Robert "parent", so it's likely that their tutors were much more skilled in bringing kids up in a decent way. Tommen is quiet and a little withdrawn, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Well, true enough an aweful father is probably just as bad if not worse than an absentee father for a girl.  I don't know if we can say that Cersei didn't pay attention though to Tommen and Myrcella, because we do know they eat together and were at least around one another often whereas Robert seems entirely absent even at family meals. I just think her attention to them was different than her attention to Joffrey, but not necessarily less.  Cersei put up a good front of being lady like.  All her affairs were on the downlow and to most she would have been every image of a Queen to model yourself after.

Tommen might be quiet and withdrawn now, but a lot can change when a young boy hits puberty.  We don't know if he would have turned out any better than Joffrey just that there was more of a chance of him turning out better given the right guidance. Joffrey was almost beyond fixing at his age without some drastic things done. To fix Joffrey you'd need to literally take everything away from him, really knock him down a few pegs, and then build him up with a good "father figure/male rolemodel."  Life north of the wall would have been good for him where his title didn't mean anything if he survived long enough to learn the lessons required to be a good man and had proper guidance.

[Dark Rider]

Light a wight tonight, on 25 February 2012 - 03:11 PM, said:

The Joff apologists seem to want to forget that at age 13 he was ordering men to fight to the death. This is not a young troublemaker; this is a deeply warped personality. No way could  mere neglectful parenting be the cause of this. He was wrong at birth and no effort was made to correct it.

How many 13 year olds now have digital men fight to the death nonstop with their video games? I think a lot of young trouble makers would do the same thing today if they could get away with it.

[Dracarya]

Dark Rider, on 25 February 2012 - 03:12 PM, said:

Well, true enough an aweful father is probably just as bad if not worse than an absentee father for a girl.  I don't know if we can say that Cersei didn't pay attention though to Tommen and Myrcella, because we do know they eat together and were at least around one another often whereas Robert seems entirely absent even at family meals. I just think her attention to them was different than her attention to Joffrey, but not necessarily less.  Cersei put up a good front of being lady like.  All her affairs were on the downlow and to most she would have been every image of a Queen to model yourself after.

Tommen might be quiet and withdrawn now, but a lot can change when a young boy hits puberty.  We don't know if he would have turned out any better than Joffrey just that there was more of a chance of him turning out better given the right guidance. Joffrey was almost beyond fixing at his age without some drastic things done. To fix Joffrey you'd need to literally take everything away from him, really knock him down a few pegs, and then build him up with a good "father figure/male rolemodel."  Life north of the wall would have been good for him where his title didn't mean anything if he survived long enough to learn the lessons required to be a good man and had proper guidance.

Ah well we definitely don't see much of Tommen and Myrcella until after Joffrey dies. I think Cersei dedicated most of her attention to Joffrey though, seeing as she didn't expect him to die and so she put all her efforts into training him to become king. Clearly she thought him ready enough to be king as she killed off Robert (I know the main reason for doing so wasn't so Joffrey could ascend, but you see my point). Her warped ideas are mostly what made Joffrey as terrible as he was. I think that if Tommen had been raised in the same way Joffrey had, he probably wouldn't have turned out as nice. I don't really hold with the view that kids are "born bad", but something wasn't right with Joffrey from the beginning. With the same genes and the same treatment, Tommen or Myrcella might well have turned out just as bad.

As to your more recent comment, I disagree fully. Didn't you ever make your toys kill each other, or take away the ladder to the swimming pool on Sims, stuff like that? That doesn't mean I'm going to make people fight to the death or cause people to drown in real life. The argument about video games is a tough one, but personally I think that it isn't an issue of cause and effect, that if you play violent video games you will become violent, but more that those who already have violent tendencies are naturally drawn towards violent games, and so the two feed off each other if you will.

ETA: noticed you said trouble-makers. Well it's more likely that they would given half the chance, but I don't think that a typically "naughty" child who plays those kinds of games would necessarily act in such a way as Joffrey. Thankfully people like him aren't too common.

Edited by Fire&Blood, 25 February 2012 - 03:19 PM.

[Light a wight tonight]

Dark Rider, on 25 February 2012 - 03:14 PM, said:

How many 13 year olds now have digital men fight to the death nonstop with their video games?

That's like saying GRRM killed a lot of people because it happens in the books.

[brashcandy]

Dark Rider, on 25 February 2012 - 03:00 PM, said:

I don't see him that way. To my memory he never killed anyone with his own two hands. He's a bully pure and simple and a real whimp at the end of the day. I don't think he would have been as mean to Sansa as he was if it hadn't been for that incident with the Wolf and the Butcher's boy on the trip south to Kingdlanding from Winterfell.  That embarassed him and he was determined to embarass Sansa and be mean to her for it, because he couldn't stand that she had seen him for as weak as he really was.

He may be a coward and a whimp but that has nothing to do with his sadistic qualities, or perhaps it made them worse? Given time, I have little doubt Joffrey would killed people with his own hands, maybe not in battle, but certainly in the dungeons of the Red Keep where he had them at his mercy. Beating Sansa was not simply because she had seen him humilated at the Trident, that's Cersei's excuse. It may have played a role in why he was so cruel to the girl, but it's clear that Joff's issues are a lot more twisted and perverted than simply acting out from shame.

[DornishKnight]

Robert, for being an absent father and nothing of a role model.

Cersei, for being overprotective and doting and refusing to discipline him for anything (the WORST way for a mother to raise her son).

Joffrey probably wasn't born a psycho. He just grew up with shitty parents, no discipline, and an unchecked sense of entitlement.

Edited by DornishKnight, 25 February 2012 - 03:32 PM.

[brashcandy]

Dark Rider, on 25 February 2012 - 02:22 PM, said:

Well, Tommen is still a small child.  Although boys need the male example throughout their lives it's when they're pre-teens and teenagers they need it the most.  When a boy is about to become a man he needs a Father most or at least a male rolemodel.  Tommen might have turned out just as bad as Joffrey over time.  Afterall, we don't know what Joffrey was like at Tommen's age he might have been just as nice and sweet.

Myrcella is a woman. She is raised to be a lady and I'm sure has been well cultivated into doing that.  Cersei knows how to raise a Lady, because she is one. She doesn't need to teach Myrcella to be cut throat, because women in her world don't have much power.  Basically, if you're raising a little girl you just have to make sure they turn out as Lady like and beautiful as possible so that you can marry them off to someone of high station.  Most girls who grow up without Fathers probably have difficulty understanding men and may have issues in their romantic relationships later on, but in this world you don't date, hook-up in college, and so forth you get married off in carefully contracted marriages so that was never going to be an issue with her really.

1. Myrcella is not a woman
2. Cersei isn't exactly the kind of person I would say knows how to raise a lady. See her advice to Sansa during the Blackwater Battle:

Quote

"You little fool. Tears are not a woman's only weapon. You've got another one between your legs, and you'd best learn how to use it.

[the Scorpion Knight]

JonHo, on 25 February 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

Doesn't make sense how Tommen and Myrcella turned out alright. Tommen has a good heart, a sweet boy. Myrcella is really mature for her age and intelligent. But I have the feeling they were kind of ignored, especially by Robert.

actually It makes alot of sense considering the parents ( and the fact that they go more after the father [tommen maybe myrcella definitivly])

Edited by the Scorpion Knight, 25 February 2012 - 03:42 PM.

[mor2]

I think that it just that Joffery as the heir got more attention by his mother.

Edited by mor2, 25 February 2012 - 03:42 PM.

[The King in the South]

brashcandy, on 25 February 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:

1. Myrcella is not a woman
2. Cersei isn't exactly the kind of person I would say knows how to raise a lady. See her advice to Sansa during the Blackwater Battle:

Unfortuneately, that advice is kinda what a woman has to follow in Westeros if she wants to hold power.

[the Scorpion Knight]

mor2, on 25 February 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:

I think that Joffery as the heir got more attention by his mother.

replace the word more with most of the time if not only and I agree

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

I think that Tommen took after his great-grandfather Tytos rather than Tywin or Cersei.

[brashcandy]

The King in the South, on 25 February 2012 - 03:44 PM, said:

Unfortuneately, that advice is kinda what a woman has to follow in Westeros if she wants to hold power.

Really? Wasn't that the mistake in thinking that got Cersei locked up? I think Sansa is smarter than that.