219 replies to this topic

[Raksha the Demon]

The King in the South, on 25 February 2012 - 03:44 PM, said:

Unfortuneately, that advice is kinda what a woman has to follow in Westeros if she wants to hold power.

Not totally; a Westerosi woman should learn how to use the tool that is between her ears as well as the tool that is - ahem - between her legs.  Using sex to manipulate a man can be a useful art, but it rarely makes for a long-term solution.  Note that  the Queen of Thorns is still merrily manipulating people, and wielding considerable influence, long after her sexual power has diminished.  

[Completely Headless Ned]

Dark Rider, on 25 February 2012 - 03:00 PM, said:

I don't see him that way. To my memory he never killed anyone with his own two hands. He's a bully pure and simple and a real whimp at the end of the day. I don't think he would have been as mean to Sansa as he was if it hadn't been for that incident with the Wolf and the Butcher's boy on the trip south to Kingdlanding from Winterfell.  That embarassed him and he was determined to embarass Sansa and be mean to her for it, because he couldn't stand that she had seen him for as weak as he really was.

Yeah, but I do remember hearing that killing or torturing animals may lead to someone having what it takes to become a serial killer. And he definatly does that.

[FanTasy]

Dark Rider, on 25 February 2012 - 03:00 PM, said:

To my memory he never killed anyone with his own two hands.

I remember Joffrey telling Tyrion or Sansa he killed somebody with his crossbow.

[Dracarya]

FanTasy, on 25 February 2012 - 04:37 PM, said:

I remember Joffrey telling Tyrion or Sansa he killed somebody with his crossbow.

Yes, when the citizens of KL were crowding round the gates, demanding food? He shot one of them and said something like "They can eat their dead" (not actual quote, but something along those lines).

[Fragile Bird]

Wow, I've just gotten caught up on your posts and there have been a lot of very insightful comments made.  (My computer all of a sudden stopped me from getting past home page last night, and I had to do stupid things today like laundry and grocery shopping!)

After reading all the posts so far, it strikes me that Robert is an absolutely classic example of the Peter Principle:  he's risen to his level of incompetency, so he spends his time drinking and whoring.  Being a father just doesn't catch his attention.  I think it was very telling when he said to Ned Stark that they should just leave everything behind and become sellswords, or words to that effect, on the ride back to King's Landing.

And I thought really good points were made regarding Joffrey's education, or lack of, and the lack of the companionship of boys his own age.  The latter is a striking point - why wouldn't other noble families have offered sons as companions.  Surely this would be an honour people would relish for their sons. Would Robert or Cersei have refused such offers?

And in the real world, I've read lots of stories of princes being raised by tutors that have strong disciplinary powers over their young princes.  Someone commented that Robert really wouldn't have a role in raising his son, and on reflection, I think I'd agree.  I think royal families hire the best tutors - for classic education, swordmanship, riding, dancing, manners etc - and leave the kid in the schoolroom til they're old enough to come out and look like a polished, suave princeling.

And for the psychology buffs, are you familiar with a Canadian book that is apparently the seminal text on how serial killers turned out the way they did:  Hunting Humans, The Rise of the Modern Multiple Murderer, by Elliott Leyton.  I gather it's required reading for many police forces everywhere these days.

Edit sp.

Edited by Fragile Bird, 25 February 2012 - 05:19 PM.

[FanTasy]

Fire&Blood, on 25 February 2012 - 04:39 PM, said:

Yes, when the citizens of KL were crowding round the gates, demanding food?

ACOK Sansa III  Joff tells Sansa he killed a man of a party of citizens who came to the gate calling for bread. He shot the loudest one through the throat.
He shot a woman through the arm.
By the way, this was the one time Joff asked Sandor to hit Sansa. Ser Dontos intervened.

Edited by FanTasy, 25 February 2012 - 05:05 PM.

[FanTasy]

Fragile Bird, on 25 February 2012 - 04:55 PM, said:

And for the psychology buffs, are you familiar with a Canadian book that is apparently the seminal text on how serial killers turned out the way they did:  Hunting Humans, The Rise of the Modern Multiple Murderer, by Elliott Leyton.  I gather it's required reading for many police forces everywhere these days.

Yes, read it. It's a disturbing book. I checked all locks on my doors after reading it.

[the Scorpion Knight]

Fragile Bird, on 25 February 2012 - 04:55 PM, said:

And in the real world, I've read lots of stories of princes being raised by tutors that have strong disciplinary powers over their young princes.  Someone commented that Robert really wouldn't have a role in raising his son, and on reflection, I think I'd agree.  I think royal families hire the best tutors - for classic education, swordmanship, riding, dancing, manners etc - and leave the kid in the shoolroom til they're old enough to come out and look like a polished, suave princeling.

the fun part is joffrey were even seem to have a severe lack of royal education

[Dracarya]

Fragile Bird, on 25 February 2012 - 04:55 PM, said:

And I thought really good points were made regarding Joffrey's education, or lack of, and the lack of the companionship of boys his own age.  The latter is a striking point - why wouldn't other noble families have offered sons as companions.  Surely this would be an honour people would relish for their sons. Would Robert or Cersei have refused such offers?

And in the real world, I've read lots of stories of princes being raised by tutors that have strong disciplinary powers over their young princes.  Someone commented that Robert really wouldn't have a role in raising his son, and on reflection, I think I'd agree.  I think royal families hire the best tutors - for classic education, swordmanship, riding, dancing, manners etc - and leave the kid in the schoolroom til they're old enough to come out and look like a polished, suave princeling.

And for the psychology buffs, are you familiar with a Canadian book that is apparently the seminal text on how serial killers turned out the way they did:  Hunting Humans, The Rise of the Modern Multiple Murderer, by Elliott Leyton.  I gather it's required reading for many police forces everywhere these days.

I haven't read that book, but I'm definitely going to look into it. I'm on a police studies degree so that will be very interesting!

I made a point about Robert not raising Joffrey - as a big fan of historical fiction (and then learning the facts afterwards sometimes ), namely Tudor/Plantagenet/Victorian times, it was definitely the case that children were left in the schoolroom under the supervision of tutors and governesses and only brought out for meal times and family occasions (if you're a fan of Victorian times, a very good modern-yet-pretty-historically-correct novel is The Crimson Petal and The White by Michel Faber. Love it!). This is why I mentioned it, because parents, fathers in particular, rarely had a hand in bringing up the children, except to perhaps discipline them in severe circumstances. It wasn't excusing Roberts' behaviour or lack of parenting skills, but just pointing out that it is not like modern times, where we expect the father to be there and do just as much as the mother when bringing up the children.

I think that not many other families particularly liked the Lannisters, which might be why Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella were not fostered or brought up with other children, but I also put it down to Cersei wanting to keep her children, particularly Joffrey, ridiculously close to her, so she could raise him in the way she saw fit, without any outside influence. Without repeating my arguments about Cersei, this is just one of the reasons why I blame her more for the way Joffrey turned out - she alone pretty much had the influence over him, and look how he turned out? I know Roberts' neglect played an equal part, but Cersei actively, I think, poisoned Joffrey, whereas Roberts' failing to act and influence him had a different adverse effect. If that makes any sense whatsoever.

@FanTasy - thanks for that, I thought it rang a bell.

[clover]

Robert's ignoring him was detrimental and ruinous. And I am absolutely not making excuses for Robert but I always wonder if Robert was a bit discouraged or turned off because he sensed something was amiss with Joffrey. I am not saying you give up on your child, but Robert was immature himself and maybe that is what he did subconsciously too. Of course he had his wine and women keeping him busy too. And not sure what he thought of Myrcella or Tommen. You would at least think he would give a nice comment one time in the series about maybe his kind-hearted, pretty daughter or his sweet, good-natured, younger son. Nothing that I recall.

But really it was Cersei. He was so spoiled and indulged. Look at the example he got during the Arya-Mycah incident and how Cersei wished Robert to handle it. And Joff turned on her as he got older, and only then did she realized that she couldn't control him anymore or even advise him.

And even after death she is still making excuses for him and making light of his outbursts and mean-streak. She compares him to Tommen and how brave he was, and thinks Tommen weak. His brat-like temper tantrums always seemed to strike her as him being bold. She knew he treated Sansa like garbage, killed bunnies... Ugh! she encouraged him and egged his bad behavior and twisted false reality on.

Edited by clover, 25 February 2012 - 06:04 PM.

[FanTasy]

Again, off topic, because it considers Tommen. I had to swallow a big chunk of anger in the scenes where Cersei is threatening Tommen with what his conduct will mean for his 'whipping boy'.

[Dracarya]

FanTasy, on 25 February 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

Again, off topic, because it considers Tommen. I had to swallow a big chunk of anger in the scenes where Cersei is threatening Tommen with what his conduct will mean for his 'whipping boy'.

Same here. Didn't help my dislike of the woman. She's a hard character to like. I enjoy her POVs and she's a fascinating and well-written character, don't get me wrong, but as a person I would like to punch her in the face. Poor sweet Tommen. I'm glad Margaery is taking him away from his mother. She seems like she'll be a good influence, and he'll have good male role models as well.

[Fragile Bird]

I have seriously used my "Like This" button today and have run out, so I just need to come out and tell you all that your stuff has been great!

@Fire&Blood

Note how distressed dear Cersei is at the thought of Ser Loras teaching Tommen how to joust.  Jaime has no issues with having a gay man in the Kingsguard, and Cersei experiments with sleeping with a woman so she can see if she can get a Robert like sexual thrill by being rough on a woman in bed, but damn it, that Loras punk ain't going anywhere near Tommen.  Her idea of manliness is of course The Hound, and look what she got in Joffrey.

[Dark Rider]

Give Joffrey to me and I'd have made him a good man.  All the Kid needed was to be taken from his life of privilege and away from his "yes men" to have a chance to be in the real world. Varys know the impact that entitlement and life of luxary has on future rulers, which is why he is so motivated in part to bring in Aegon.

[Lord of Cheese]

I think Joff is just a monster. He has no value on human life other than indulging in his own desires, and given the power he had he was able to inflict misery and get away with it.

Edited by Lord of Cheese, 25 February 2012 - 09:50 PM.

[DornishKnight]

Dark Rider, on 25 February 2012 - 08:12 PM, said:

Give Joffrey to me and I'd have made him a good man.  All the Kid needed was to be taken from his life of privilege and away from his "yes men" to have a chance to be in the real world. Varys know the impact that entitlement and life of luxary has on future rulers, which is why he is so motivated in part to bring in Aegon.

By the time we meet him in the series, it is too late.  He needed a good father from the beginning.  

Myrcella turned out well because she was ignored by her psycho mother and was insulated from the coddling Joffrey got.  Tommen is at an early enough age that he could turn into the next Joffrey, if his mother has her way.

[clover]

Not good either. Because she is clearly not taking Joffrey's death too well, and having a second Joff might be the way she starts treating Tommen and the example she gives him. He is young enough yet.

[Raksha the Demon]

Fire&Blood, on 25 February 2012 - 05:30 PM, said:

I haven't read that book, but I'm definitely going to look into it. I'm on a police studies degree so that will be very interesting!

I made a point about Robert not raising Joffrey - as a big fan of historical fiction (and then learning the facts afterwards sometimes ), namely Tudor/Plantagenet/Victorian times, it was definitely the case that children were left in the schoolroom under the supervision of tutors and governesses and only brought out for meal times and family occasions (if you're a fan of Victorian times, a very good modern-yet-pretty-historically-correct novel is The Crimson Petal and The White by Michel Faber. Love it!). This is why I mentioned it, because parents, fathers in particular, rarely had a hand in bringing up the children, except to perhaps discipline them in severe circumstances. It wasn't excusing Roberts' behaviour or lack of parenting skills, but just pointing out that it is not like modern times, where we expect the father to be there and do just as much as the mother when bringing up the children.

I think that not many other families particularly liked the Lannisters, which might be why Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella were not fostered or brought up with other children, but I also put it down to Cersei wanting to keep her children, particularly Joffrey, ridiculously close to her, so she could raise him in the way she saw fit, without any outside influence. Without repeating my arguments about Cersei, this is just one of the reasons why I blame her more for the way Joffrey turned out - she alone pretty much had the influence over him, and look how he turned out? I know Roberts' neglect played an equal part, but Cersei actively, I think, poisoned Joffrey, whereas Roberts' failing to act and influence him had a different adverse effect. If that makes any sense whatsoever.

@FanTasy - thanks for that, I thought it rang a bell.

Ned Stark didn't send his children away to be fostered either; which seems also to be unusual among noble families.  Ned, Robert, Jaime, I believe Brandon Stark as well, were all fostered in other houses, not to mention Petyr Baelish.   I wonder why Ned didn't foster out his sons - could it be that the war had made him want to hold his family closer?  Or just the dictates of the plot?  

The royal Tudor children seem to have not only been reared by others, but once they passed a certain age (can't remember when, but when they were quite young), the kids were each given their own separate houses, with entire staffs of tutors, governesses, maids, cooks, grooms, etc., rather than have them reared by others in at least the same place that their parents lived.  Was this an attempt to minimize the dangers to the crown of father and royal children all contracting the same illness or being the object of the same physical attack/coup?  

Perhaps word of Joffrey's viciousness had already gone out to various Southern lords; so that no one wanted to either foster Joffrey under their own roof or send their own sons to King's Landing to be his companion.  I do wonder if Joffrey would have turned out any better if he had been sent off to Dragonstone at age eight to be fostered by Stannis - can you imagine Joffrey's mean tendencies and lack of empathy wedded to the eventual Rhlorr-ism that Stannis took up?  Perhaps Stannis would have been a good influence on Joffrey; but I'm not sure; their personalities were very different and I'm not sure that Stannis would have had the patience to raise Joffrey in a way that could help the boy resolve his insecurities and try to at least appear compassionate (I haven't seen Stannis demonstrate much compassion himself).

[BlackTalon]

Ashkan Stark, on 25 February 2012 - 04:09 AM, said:

I don't think Robert was a  strong factor in Joff's morals and manners. He was under Cersei's Upbringing and everything he knows and everything he does is from his mother. Even in one of Tyrion's chapters he says that Joff is like his mother and everything he does comes from Cersei. So in my eyes he is Cersei's creature and he was just a tool for her to reach the power.

This.

I believe it is unfair to slam Robert as a horrible father, just remember young Robert with little Mya in the Vale, he couldn't get enough of playing and spending time with her. He would have been a much better father even to Cersei´s children if she hadn´t done her very best to estrange them. This and Cersei´s behaviour towards him. Her ice cold disdain was something he couldnot deal with and it drove him to drinking and his dislike of her just bled into his relationship with his children.

BTW we know hardly anything about Robert´s relationship with Myrcella and Tommen, we only learn incidents between Joffrey and Robert, for instance the fact that Joffrey wouldn´t suck on Robert´s pinky even as a child, unlike all his other normal children, and the incident with the cat for which Robert knocked out one his teeth, IIRC.

[Many and More]

Fire&Blood, on 25 February 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

[...]
And whoever says that nobody deserves a smack every now and again is a liar. Cersei was an utter bitch, are you telling me you wouldn't have smacked her in the mouth at least once? I'm not condoning violence, and Robert was much bigger and stronger than Cersei, but [...]

Wow. Just...wow. You don't condone violence, but you would have "smacked that bitch in the mouth at least once". Not only that, but you believe every other person would do the same.

This may be the single scariest thing I've seen posted on this forum.

Edited by Many and More, 26 February 2012 - 05:01 AM.