219 replies to this topic

[scotcat]

Joff was a monster. I think he has to be one of - if not the most - loathed characters in ASOIAF. But who is to blame for it?

Cersei, certainly. The men in his life weren't exactly there for him either - though this was in large part due to Cersei as well. She kept robert away from Joffrey and she kept Jamie away as far away as she could (for obvious reasons). The only other men in his life were sycophants and servants, all of which helped make him into the monster he became.

The inbreeding couldn't have helped any either. Look at the Targaryens. Could Joffrey have been what he was, at least in part, because of genetics?

Edited by scotcat, 26 February 2012 - 05:11 AM.

[Raksha the Demon]

BlackTalon, on 26 February 2012 - 02:08 AM, said:

This.

I believe it is unfair to slam Robert as a horrible father, just remember young Robert with little Mya in the Vale, he couldn't get enough of playing and spending time with her. He would have been a much better father even to Cersei´s children if she hadn´t done her very best to estrange them. This and Cersei´s behaviour towards him. Her ice cold disdain was something he couldnot deal with and it drove him to drinking and his dislike of her just bled into his relationship with his children.

BTW we know hardly anything about Robert´s relationship with Myrcella and Tommen, we only learn incidents between Joffrey and Robert, for instance the fact that Joffrey wouldn´t suck on Robert´s pinky even as a child, unlike all his other normal children, and the incident with the cat for which Robert knocked out one his teeth, IIRC.

I think Robert is a rather poor father; or at best an example of father-by-delegation and benign neglect.  He did enjoy playing with the child Mya; because it was convenient and easy for him to do so; since he was unmarried and living in the same place that Mya was.  Later, as a married King, he did think of sending for Mya (only after the incident of Joffrey and the cat), and perhaps wisely decided against it when Cersei threatened the child, but as far as we know, Robert has never sent any money/coin to support what seems to have been his favorite child.  He did bestir himself to delegate someone (Renly, I think) to send birthday presents in his name to Edric Dayne; but Edric Dayne was the son of a noblewoman, not as easy to totally ignore.  It would not have been difficult for Robert to have sent money for a decent dowry for Mya, or something.  Possibly Robert directed Jon Arryn to arrange Gendry's apprenticeship with Tobho Mott; which was better than nothing; but he showed little interest in the infant Barra. I have the feeling that Jon Arryn took care of Robert's bastards; and he probably died before Barra was born.

Even Roose Bolton was a better father than Robert, which is pretty chilling; he made sure that his bastard received regular stipends, and did not turn him away when the adult Ramsay came to him, even though he wanted to.  

We don't know anything about Robert's relationship with Tommen and Myrcella because he doesn't have one.  Robert never mentions them; except when he asks Ned to take care of his "children" on his deathbed.

If Cersei had been as determined to make Robert pay attention to her children as she was to make sure they were sired by someone else; I think Robert would have at least spent a few minutes per month watching Tommen learn martial arts or go riding with Myrcella, not to mention getting to know the boy who was supposed to succeed him.  I could see where Joffrey was a disappointment to Robert; but if he had been encouraged to take a more active role in the boy's upbringing,  perhaps Joffrey would have been less disappointing to him.  Joffrey at least is a graceful, athletic kid; Robert might have been pleased by his youthful prowess in riding and thwacking with swords.  I get the feeling that Cersei kept Joffrey close and discouraged anyone else, male or female, from influencing the child.  We know that Robert was annoyed and perhaps nervous about that closeness; he mentions his concern to Ned about Joffrey becoming king with Cersei whispering in his ear, at some point in AGOT.  

Even Jon Arryn, the very busy Hand of the King (and, it could be said, the de facto head of state in Westeros), found time to make plans to send his own child away for fostering - which caused the poor man's death, since Lysa was not going to let that kid go.  Robert really could have, and should have, sent Joffrey away to be fostered sometime between the age of seven and ten; and Winterfell would have been ideal.  (though the mind boggles at what would have happened if little Joffrey started to look up to Theon instead of Ned; on the other hand, even little Joffrey would have been a snob and might have ignored an Ironborn hostage; not to mention poor Jon Snow)  I get the impression that Robert was too tired of dealing with Lannisters and Cersei to even try to send his sons away for fostering.  (Tommen would have absolutely thrived at Winterfell, especially if Joffrey wasn't there!)

Edited by Raksha the Demon, 26 February 2012 - 06:10 AM.

[Revan Baratheon]

Why isnt anyone blaming joffrey for turning out to be a sadist? I mean if a kid like bran or even edric was pampered by his mom and neglected by his dad,he still wont be torturing people..Joffrey had a choice,no one forced him to be a sadist.

[Dracarya]

Many and More, on 26 February 2012 - 04:56 AM, said:

Wow. Just...wow. You don't condone violence, but you would have "smacked that bitch in the mouth at least once". Not only that, but you believe every other person would do the same.

This may be the single scariest thing I've seen posted on this forum.

What? That's utterly ridiculous. Not only have you cut out most of what I said, which is contrary to that part, but it's a natural reaction for some people to turn to violence. Are you really telling me that you've never reacted with violence towards someone? I highly doubt it. We are human beings, none of us are perfect. Do not judge me by your false standards. I was merely pointed out that Roberts' reactions, albeit the wrong ones, are natural, and make him seem very real and human to me. Cerseis' cold planning does not seem altogether human to me. I never said "smack the bitch in the mouth" either, you've paraphrased what I said to make it sound worse. I said she was a bitch, and I probably would smack her one if she treated me the way she treats some people. If you've never hit someone or something ever in your life, applause for you.

And how many times do I have to say that I do not appreciate being the victim of rudeness? If you don't agree with my opinion, that's cool, talk to me about it. Don't give me your "wow.. just wow" shit, and make out like I'm a monster. I never wished anything on her, and you've seen absolutely nothing on this forum if you think that was scary, so cut it out. And if my opinions really offend you, I can only apologise, but nobody else commented on what I said. Oh and if you're going to comment on what I say, please do not paraphrase it and make it sound worse than it is. I'm all for being challenged, but I won't be made out to be a complete and utter c*nt. Thank you.

[Dracarya]

Raksha the Demon, on 25 February 2012 - 11:30 PM, said:

<snip>

I've had this discussion elsewhere as well, I found it quite strange that Ned didn't foster out his children. One theory we came up with was that if Robb had been fostered, that would mean Jon having to be fostered as well, for it to be fair, but either Catelyn didn't want Jon to be treated the same as her trueborn children, or R+L=J and Ned wanted Jon kept close, for fear someone would find out, or Jon himself would find out (somehow). Or if Robb was fostered, Catelyn didn't want to be left with Jon. I don't know if girls are usually fostered, I don't think it's usual, and we see that Sansa and Arya were tutored by the septa. I think Bran was too young, and most certainly Rickon was, but the boys were all trained by the master-at-arms and educated by Maester Luwin.
ETA: To make my point, which I somehow always leave out, it's clear that while this younger generation wasn't fostered, the Stark kids had a decent, varied education, whereas Joffrey didn't seem to have any. Another black mark against Cersei, imho.

If you're talking about Henry the 8th's children, I know Elizabeth was given Hatfield House when she was about two years old, and Anne Boleyn was chastised for wanting to breastfeed and rear her herself (something about queens do not do things like that, much less for a daughter). Mary I think was kept quite close, until of course she was made a bastard, and she was sent to work in Hatfield House to help bring up Elizabeth. Edward was tutored and brought up mostly by his uncle Edward Seymour, I think? and was given Elizabeths' old governess, Lady Bryan, when Elizabeth herself was made a bastard. For the prince, I think he stayed in a royal castle, though I can't say which one off the top of my head, but boys of his own age (Duke of Suffolks' son was one of his peers, I think) came to be tutored with him, as did Elizabeth later on. (I'm a huge Anne Boleyn fan, so I know more about her and Elizabeth than I do the other children.) As for the reasons, Henry was extremely afraid of illnesses, to the point of a phobia I think, so it may well be that he did this in order to prevent illnesses from spreading amongst them all.

I think if Joffrey had been sent to Stannis, as you say, at a young age, he might have turned out a bit differently. But can you imagine what Stannis would have done to him if he had him in his care, and found out that he was the product of incest? My best guess is that Cersei, perhaps like Ned with Jon, wanted to keep her children close to her, to lessen the chances of people finding out their true origins and either hurting them when she could do nothing to prevent it, or plotting in secret against her. It is also worth mentioning that someone pointed out to me that Lysa said that Joffrey was not kind to little Robert Arryn when they played together in KL, so it's possible she told others, or they saw Joffreys' true nature for themselves. Servants appear to like to gossip, so it probably wouldn't have been much of a secret.

Edited by Fire&Blood, 26 February 2012 - 07:29 AM.

[Raksha the Demon]

Did the real (as opposed to the version seen in the TV show The Tudors) Anne Boleyn actually want to breastfeed baby Elizabeth but was prevented by Henry?  I hadn't known that.  Interesting.  Henry VIII's phobia about illnesses was probably justified, considering that he had lost an older brother and a few infant children and (later, in his lifetime I think) the only son of his other than Edward to survive infancy, the bastard Henry Fitzroy.  That sweating sickness sounded pretty grim too...

I just thought that Robert would have put his royal foot down in having his sons fostered, as he was, in another high lord's house.  It could well be that he tried; and then Cersei would have coldly refused to part with her precious babies, and threatened to have her father fail to pay for Robert's next tournament or something.  

[Dracarya]

Raksha the Demon, on 26 February 2012 - 08:10 AM, said:

Did the real (as opposed to the version seen in the TV show The Tudors) Anne Boleyn actually want to breastfeed baby Elizabeth but was prevented by Henry?  I hadn't known that.  Interesting.  Henry VIII's phobia about illnesses was probably justified, considering that he had lost an older brother and a few infant children and (later, in his lifetime I think) the only son of his other than Edward to survive infancy, the bastard Henry Fitzroy.  That sweating sickness sounded pretty grim too...

I just thought that Robert would have put his royal foot down in having his sons fostered, as he was, in another high lord's house.  It could well be that he tried; and then Cersei would have coldly refused to part with her precious babies, and threatened to have her father fail to pay for Robert's next tournament or something.  

I don't think it quite played out how the Tudors showed it, but I'm pretty sure I read it elsewhere as well. She travelled to Hatfield House a lot to see her daughter, more than queens "should have", and she was a commoner, so it's not unlikely that she didn't care about what queens should do, and cared more about looking after her flesh and blood. Yes, Anne was blamed for poisoning Henry Fitzroy for a while, along with Katherine of Aragon and Mary, but I'm pretty sure he died of the sweating sickness. I'm not surprised that Henry was paranoid - I don't know how many of his and Katherine's children died of illness, I thought a lot of them could be put down to cot death - I think his father was the same? And of course having his brother die would have affected him, even if it made him king.

Yeah it's not unlikely that Cersei threatened him, she had more power than he did in terms of her family, money and their guards, and he just relented for a quiet life. I also don't think he cared as much as he should have about his childrens' upbringing - he should not have been a parent, that much is clear. It seems that while Cersei happily took control over everything, Robert also made no attempt to stop what she was doing.

Edited by Fire&Blood, 26 February 2012 - 08:36 AM.

[Queen Cersei I]

Raksha the Demon, on 26 February 2012 - 08:10 AM, said:

Did the real (as opposed to the version seen in the TV show The Tudors) Anne Boleyn actually want to breastfeed baby Elizabeth but was prevented by Henry?  

Yes, that and numerous other factors suggest that Anne B. was an excellent and loving mother to Elizabeth. A large part of the reason for Anne's rather callous behavior towards Mary (who Anne did treat quite badly in real life) was because the girl, so long as she refused to recognize Anne or Elizabeth, was a threat to Elizabeth in Anne's eyes.

BlackTalon, on 26 February 2012 - 02:08 AM, said:

I believe it is unfair to slam Robert as a horrible father, just remember young Robert with little Mya in the Vale, he couldn't get enough of playing and spending time with her. He would have been a much better father even to Cersei´s children if she hadn´t done her very best to estrange them.

This continued insistence that Robert B. was-- or totally would have been-- a decent father but was prevented from doing so by the wicked Cersei simply does not add up with the facts as we know them. Let's review:

1. Accusation: Robert would have loved his kids, but Cersei never let him.
False. Cersei testifies that Robert was reluctant to hold his kids, was neglectful from the beginning.

2. Accusation: Robert was naturally a great dad, but Cersei ruined it. His actions with Mya prove it.
False. Robert, when a young man, "doted" on his cute, fun little daughter, constantly stopping by to play with her and have fun. However, from the beginning, it is clear that he never took on any real responsibility (financial or technical) He wasn't there for the hardship, the discipline, or anything remotely tough. He just had fun and played with the kid and did all the fun stuff.

Then he pretty much forgot about his kid, for reasons having nothing to do with Cersei. From the moment he left for the war (which lasted a year) he started totally ignoring Mya, and apparently forgot about her existence. He then went for at least 8 years or so without mentioning the kid or attempting to do a thing for her, though he had pretty much unlimited resources to do so.

Then, 8, 9, or 10 years later or so, his own "son" cuts open a cat and proves himself to be a wicked sadist. It is shortly thereafter (it is noted) that Robert mentions to Cersei that he is going to bring his daughter to court. Cersei threatens Robert, Robert punches Cersei, and that is the end of it.

So... Cersei prevented Robert from being a good father? There are numerous problems with this hypothesis.

First and foremost, Robert totally forgot about Mya Stone for at least 8 years or more. He only remembers her, and decides to do something for her, when his own self esteem is in crisis-- seeing how monstrous "his" son has turned out, he no doubt wants to reassure himself by bringing up a "good" child of his. His reasons for wanting to bring Mya to court have everything to do with narcissism and personal insecurity; nothing to do with honest fatherly responsibilty or concern (he has certainly shown none whatsoever over the past 8 to 10 years, during which he's given every indication of having forgotten about Mya's existence.)

Also, if he were really concerned with Mya, he would NOT be bringing her to court. As Ned Stark notes, there would be no place for a bastard at court, being there would be awkward and humiliating for one. If Robert was really motivated by genuine concern for his offspring, then he would have financially provided for her, monitored what was happening to her, tried to make it so that she could move up in life. He did none of these things. He simply wanted to have his fun kid at court so he could feel better about himself again and play with her.

Just like before, he was willing to play around and have fun with his kid, but was not up to making any sacrifices or accepting any adult responsibilities. Cersei is not responsible for that, that has been part of Robert's character from day one.

And by the time that Robert decided he wanted to have his kid around, the damage had already been done. Mya (as she attests to Sansa) had already formed the distrust of men that would plague her all of her life. Because Robert, her father, had abandoned her.

There is also Edric Storm, who Robert "dotes" on when he sees him, but, as Stannis notes, really does not give two craps about. Why do you think he generally choses to shag hookers and low born girls? Because the last time he shagged a high born, she got pregnant and he had to recognize it and it spoiled a lot of his fun.

Robert is selfish, irresponsible, and unwilling to make sacrifices for anyone, including his own children, most of whom he abandons with all of the thought and concern of a tom cat.

His fake children are no different. He ignores Myrcella and Tommen; unlike Edric and Mya, they don't appear to really worship him, which I imagine puts out most interest on his part. The only thing different with Joff is his (understandable) deep personal dislike of the boy. Other than that, Robert is just the same standards, careless selfish absentee dad to Joff as he is to all of his kids. Cersei has nothing to do with this.

Edited by Queen Cersei I, 26 February 2012 - 12:25 PM.

[Morte]

Raksha the Demon, on 26 February 2012 - 06:08 AM, said:

I think Robert is a rather poor father; or at best an example of father-by-delegation and benign neglect.  He did enjoy playing with the child Mya; because it was convenient and easy for him to do so; since he was unmarried and living in the same place that Mya was.  Later, as a married King, he did think of sending for Mya (only after the incident of Joffrey and the cat), and perhaps wisely decided against it when Cersei threatened the child, but as far as we know, Robert has never sent any money/coin to support what seems to have been his favorite child.  He did bestir himself to delegate someone (Renly, I think) to send birthday presents in his name to Edric Dayne; but Edric Dayne was the son of a noblewoman, not as easy to totally ignore.  It would not have been difficult for Robert to have sent money for a decent dowry for Mya, or something.  Possibly Robert directed Jon Arryn to arrange Gendry's apprenticeship with Tobho Mott; which was better than nothing; but he showed little interest in the infant Barra.

It was Varys; Renly narrates it, as far as I remember (or is it Stannis? one of the two). And Robert did not see to the presents himself (it occured to me, that not even the idea came from him), it was Varys who remembered the birthday and sent the presents for Edric Storm. Robert laught(!) about the letter Edric wrote to him with a "Thank you", asking Varys what he did send this year.

I also get the impression, that Varys did arrange the apprenticeship, as Tobho Mott is from Essos and Varys tells Tyrion(I think) later, that he at least managed to get Gendry out of KL after Robert's death before he could get killed like other bastards of the king. He also mentions that he could not do anything for the baby (Barra), who was already murdered alongside her mother.

So I completly agree: Robert wasn't a good father, in fact he was a horrible father not only for Joff, but also regarding his true children.

[Fragile Bird]

You know, I really love this webset.  I love seeing all the threads, and the strange and wacky ideas that come up, all the really serious topics that people get into.  I've been introduced to ideas and concepts that I've never heard of before .  The range is wild and wonderful, from what character name would you use for your dog to trying to delve into the psychology of our main characters.

It's like going to the swimming pool - some people like the deep end, some like the shallow, and most of us go from one end to the other because of the different pleasures different depths give us.  And it's a lovely great big swimming pool, like some massive resort pool with waterfalls and side pools and places to sit and chill.  With room for all kinds of swimmers.

[seeyouintee]

Spoiler

Damn shame Joffrey's dead. Would have been great if the peasant moms started telling their children "Every time you do something bad King Joffrey kills a kitten."

[David Selig]

Fire&Blood, on 26 February 2012 - 07:24 AM, said:

I've had this discussion elsewhere as well, I found it quite strange that Ned didn't foster out his children. One theory we came up with was that if Robb had been fostered, that would mean Jon having to be fostered as well, for it to be fair, but either Catelyn didn't want Jon to be treated the same as her trueborn children, or R+L=J and Ned wanted Jon kept close, for fear someone would find out, or Jon himself would find out (somehow). Or if Robb was fostered, Catelyn didn't want to be left with Jon. I don't know if girls are usually fostered, I don't think it's usual, and we see that Sansa and Arya were tutored by the septa. I think Bran was too young, and most certainly Rickon was, but the boys were all trained by the master-at-arms and educated by Maester Luwin.

I don't think that Robb's case is that strange. Fostering highborn boys is common, but hardly universal. Robb was the heir, and my impression is that heirs are fostered more rarely since they have to be taught by their fathers the specifics of the job they'll inherit one day. It can happen, but there has to be a specific reason for that, like in Robert Baratheon's case who lost his parents young. Brandon Stark or Edmure Tully weren't fostered either as far as we know, and neither was Jaime (he was send away to be a squire of Sumner Crakeholl at 11, but that's not quite the same).

[Fragile Bird]

I was strongly leaning towards giving most of the blame to Cersei, with a small part to something damaged in Joffrey, but now I am willing to believe, in these circumstances, Robert shares blame.

I know too many people who have been guided all their lives by one parent because the other is not in the game, and the kids have turned out all right.  But I also know kids who had one great parent and still turned out rotten.  And every combination you can think of, 2 great parents, 2 lousy parents...good kids, bad kids.  One brother and sister are great the third kid is in jail.  Same family, same parents.

Goes back to my initial post - so who is to blame?

[Rapsie]

Many and More, on 26 February 2012 - 04:56 AM, said:

Wow. Just...wow. You don't condone violence, but you would have "smacked that bitch in the mouth at least once". Not only that, but you believe every other person would do the same.

This may be the single scariest thing I've seen posted on this forum.

Sadly this is one of the least scary things I've seen on this forum.


However back on topic. Joffrey was a disturbed child. Robert should have done something after the Cat incident, or at least got more involved with his kids. Robert however may have developed his parenting and relationship skills from Jon Arryn, who was less than ideal as a father and husband himself.

[Dracarya]

David Selig, on 26 February 2012 - 12:53 PM, said:

I don't think that Robb's case is that strange. Fostering highborn boys is common, but hardly universal. Robb was the heir, and my impression is that heirs are fostered more rarely since they have to be taught by their fathers the specifics of the job they'll inherit one day. It can happen, but there has to be a specific reason for that, like in Robert Baratheon's case who lost his parents young. Brandon Stark or Edmure Tully weren't fostered either as far as we know, and neither was Jaime (he was send away to be a squire of Sumner Crakeholl at 11, but that's not quite the same).

Yep good point about Robb being the heir, I think I remember Bran mentioning that Robb had sat with Ned quite a few times when he was hearing counsel or talking with his bannermen, so to learn the ways of a lord. But he doesn't seem to have many peers either, just Jon and Theon, which I found odd. I thought maybe the Starks would foster kids from their bannermen, but I don't know if that happened or not.

[Queen Cersei I]

clover, on 25 February 2012 - 06:01 PM, said:


 And I am absolutely not making excuses for Robert but I always wonder if Robert was a bit discouraged or turned off because he sensed something was amiss with Joffrey. I am not saying you give up on your child, but Robert was immature himself and maybe that is what he did subconsciously too. Of course he had his wine and women keeping him busy too. And not sure what he thought of Myrcella or Tommen. You would at least think he would give a nice comment one time in the series about maybe his kind-hearted, pretty daughter or his sweet, good-natured, younger son. Nothing that I recall.



But really it was Cersei. He was so spoiled and indulged. Look at the example he got during the Arya-Mycah incident and how Cersei wished Robert to handle it. And Joff turned on her as he got older, and only then did she realized that she couldn't control him anymore or even advise him.

………[snip] Ugh! she encouraged him and egged his bad behavior and twisted false reality on.


Yes, Cersei was apparently blind to Joffrey’s nature, and encouraged him in his cruelty, seeing it as strength. Meanwhile, Robert was able to recognize Joff’s cruelty and was disgusted by it… and did nothing about it. Aside from hitting Joffrey so hard once the boy almost died… in order to teach him a lesson about gratuitous violence. Cersei is (rightly) blamed by readers everywhere for her behavior towards Joff. But Robert always far less so.

And I wonder why. Because in the end, Robert looking the other way, and simply not dealing with Joff, was the same as Cersei’s encouragement. Worse, even—Cersei believed Joff was right; Robert knew he was wrong but did nothing, and this was his own choice. Cersei forbade Robert from punching Joff so hard as to kill the boy; there are countless other forms of punishment and discouragement.

Robert was also the one person Joffrey appeared to worship and look up to. Despite his disclaimers about not caring about Roberts death, a good half of the things he does are to earn Robert’s praise/ approval; he compares others negatively to his image of his father, thinking they could never measure up. If anyone had a chance of getting through to Joffrey, it was Robert.

In the end, Robert’s “understandable” utter neglect was at least as damaging as Cersei’s enabling.

P.S.—earlier I argued that Joffrey’s cruelty could easily be seen as a boy trying to imitate his father, given some of Robert’s deeds. Someone cast scorn on this argument, noting that there is no comparison between Robert and the political murders of children he sanctioned (and later ordered) and Joffrey’s extensive sadism.

I beg to differ. Joffrey is a 12-year-old boy in the first book. He probably can’t understand the intricacies of political necessity and warfare. All he can see is what Robert does, and what Robert does is: “destroy his enemies without mercy” (even when the enemies are innocent children, i.e., the Targ kids); beat the crap out of women when they annoy or frustrate him (Cersei); use and sexually objectify women (take your pick of which one, any one will do, really); order children dead if he thinks they pose a threat to him (Danerys); take no responsibility for the care or well being for his people, but merely focus on his own wants and desires; use brutal violence to deal with one’s problems, or when one annoys you (Robert’s backhanding of Joffrey himself.)

Of course, Joffrey is a sociopathic sadist, so he takes Robert’s “example” to the most perverted and disturbing possible extreme. I.e.., instead of pumping and dumping a bunch of hookers, he has his fiancé stripped naked publically; instead of punching someone who has done something truly wrong, Joffrey offs people with a crossbow for annoying him; instead of “merely” or “understandably” (as, disturbingly, some people on these boards continue to categorize Robert’s physical abuse of Cersei) hitting a rude woman, Joff has a “good” one stripped and beaten. And so on.

However, imo, if one looks closely, the root of these ideas and actions is not hard to find. Inspired by the ruthless cruelty of his mother? Sure. But even more so, Joffrey is trying to take (what he honestly perceives as) a page out of the book of his “father,” king Robert.

*Clover-- I bolded a few of the sentences in your post that I wanted to focus on specifically. Hope you don't mind.

[Revan Baratheon]

Reading all these threads about good old Joff,im really missing the yellow haired fuck

Edited by Revan Baratheon, 26 February 2012 - 01:37 PM.

[Fragile Bird]

seeyouintee, on 26 February 2012 - 12:51 PM, said:

Spoiler

Damn shame Joffrey's dead. Would have been great if the peasant moms started telling their children "Every time you do something bad King Joffrey kills a kitten."

Love it!

Someone has a signature line, Ever time a Frey dies an angel gets its wings.

[The King in the South]

Raksha the Demon, on 25 February 2012 - 04:01 PM, said:

Not totally; a Westerosi woman should learn how to use the tool that is between her ears as well as the tool that is - ahem - between her legs.  Using sex to manipulate a man can be a useful art, but it rarely makes for a long-term solution.  Note that  the Queen of Thorns is still merrily manipulating people, and wielding considerable influence, long after her sexual power has diminished.  

And she is doing that by basically selling her daughter's vagina, soo....

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

The King in the South, on 26 February 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

And she is doing that by basically selling her daughter's vagina, soo....

Not really. The QOT was against the marriage with Joffrey (and maybe agaisnt the marriage with Renly, not sure about that).
She tried to manipulate Sansa to marry with Willas to get her claim but Littlefinger stopped that.  And she tried to confirm suspicions about Joffrey behavior and then conspired to murder him, and get away with it, so far being successful.

So I guess her actions saved her daughter's vagina from Joffrey instead of her selling it.

Edited by Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren, 26 February 2012 - 02:05 PM.