219 replies to this topic

[Queen Cersei I]

brashcandy, on 25 February 2012 - 03:57 PM, said:

Really? Wasn't that the mistake in thinking that got Cersei locked up? I think Sansa is smarter than that.

Actually, in these books its all who you share that "weapon" with.

If you share it with the man your patriarch/ boss figure gives you to (Dany with Khal Drogo; Cat with Ned, etc., Margary to whomever daddy's decided to marry her to this week), don't reject them, and feel no disgust for them when they get a little rough with you ("she was glad he could not see tears in her eyes, etc."), and submit to him, then congrats, you are a good, smart, natural woman! Oh, but if you evilly try to manipulate men using sex, you will end up stupidly, evilly ruining your life, destroying all you love, losing all power, and walking down the street stark naked in a totally believable and not at all contrived scene in which the crowds mock your ancient 33 year old breasts.

Or else, using sex to get ahead is neither tacky, evil, nor wrong in a context where the society is totally patriarchal and women are treated as chattle. Because despite GRRM's didactic message, countless women did use sex or the promise of it to get ahead throughout history to raging success-- Elizabeth Woodville, Madam du pompador, Madam de mountspan, Anne Boleyn, and many, many others.

Many women who used sex to get ahead were not stupid or bad or "slutty" but merely canny and opportunistic. GRRM may portray Sansa as better, smarter, and more valuable because she does not use sex to get ahead and Cersei does, but I don't buy this. Sansa is undoubtedly better than Cersei because of her compassion, kindness, and intelligence. But I don't see why Cersei using sex to get ahead should even come into the equation.

The implication that Cersei is "old and used" (at 33? Seriously?) because she's slept with some men to get her way and she's over the age of 23 grosses me out.

GRRM obviously has a fear and hatred for women who use sex to get ahead, and these books portray Cersei as dooming herself (and deserving) the walk of shame for it.

In fact, one could argue that it was never her sexual deeds, merely the silly decision to rearm the faith, that did her in. If Cersei would have only kept the high septon down, she could have used that weapon between her legs to no particular censure whatsoever.

Of course, being so stupid and corrupt as to use sex to get ahead, perhaps the fact that she would be so brainless as to rearm the faith should go without saying. All that kettleblack shagging addling her already stone dull mind.

[Lyanna Stark]

Queen Cersei I, on 05 April 2012 - 02:13 AM, said:

Actually, in these books its all who you share that "weapon" with.

If you share it with the man your patriarch/ boss figure gives you to (Dany with Khal Drogo; Cat with Ned, etc., Margary to whomever daddy's decided to marry her to this week), don't reject them, and feel no disgust for them when they get a little rough with you ("she was glad he could not see tears in her eyes, etc."), and submit to him, then congrats, you are a good, smart, natural woman! Oh, but if you evilly try to manipulate men using sex, you will end up stupidly, evilly ruining your life, destroying all you love, losing all power, and walking down the street stark naked in a totally believable and not at all contrived scene in which the crowds mock your ancient 33 year old breasts.

I agree that the Dany/Drogo relationship is freaky on many levels. To me, her relationship with Daario always seemed far more healthy, since she decided to make him her lover herself and she wasn't sold or coerced. I know lots of people on this board see her as a slut because of it, but to me it was an empowering decision. She picked someone she found attractive, despite it not being someone her advisors or father figure (hur hur Jorah Mormont) would approve of, and it wasn't a forced marriage where she had to be meek and take it. It was her own choice, completely. Whether it was wise or not I always felt was beside the point, since the important bit is what Dany feels herself and that she's doing something for herself that isn't just following a bloody prophecy and being a figurehead queen. It's something she chooses as Dany_the_person, not as Dany_the_queen, or Dany_thebloodofthedragon. I never got the impression that we're supposed to see it as a negative thing either, although a lot of people are moaning about how untrusthworthy Daario is. Personally I hope he proves to be better than people think, if nothing else but as a big FU to all the "Dany is a slut" complainers.

Regarding Margaery, she seems far more like the Queen of Thorns, i.e. she's in the game to play the game, not to get laid (or not). It's fairly certain Margaery and the QoT were the ones in charge of poisoning Joffrey, which means that Mace might want her to become queen, but she will be a part of deciding how and with which king (watch this space when Aegon comes into power, can you spell annullment due to non consumation? )

Even though Tommen is way too young, it seems she's dead set on having him enamoured with her. I think she does it better and subtler than Cersei though, whose problem has always been her heavy handedness more than anything else.

Quote

Of course, being so stupid and corrupt as to use sex to get ahead, perhaps the fact that she would be so brainless as to rearm the faith should go without saying. All that kettleblack shagging addling her already stone dull mind.

I actually thought she was pretty good with the manipulation of the Kettleblack dude (I can never tell them apart) and she clearly thought he was rather pretty to look at too. Even Littlefinger is not sure about that one's loyalty, so the jury is out on that one.

The only guy I think she should have avoided is Lancel. I mean...Lancel.


EDIT: And of course, as for manipulating men with sex, Asha pulls this off perfectly and she's not seen in a negative light. At least not yet!

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 05 April 2012 - 03:49 AM.

[Winter's Knight]

Lyanna Stark, on 05 April 2012 - 03:00 AM, said:

I agree that the Dany/Drogo relationship is freaky on many levels. To me, her relationship with Daario always seemed far more healthy, since she decided to make him her lover herself and she wasn't sold or coerced. I know lots of people on this board see her as a slut because of it, but to me it was an empowering decision. She picked someone she found attractive, despite it not being someone her advisors or father figure (hur hur Jorah Mormont) would approve of, and it wasn't a forced marriage where she had to be meek and take it. It was her own choice, completely. Whether it was wise or not I always felt was beside the point, since the important bit is what Dany feels herself and that she's doing something for herself that isn't just following a bloody prophecy and being a figurehead queen. It's something she chooses as Dany_the_person, not as Dany_the_queen, or Dany_thebloodofthedragon. I never got the impression that we're supposed to see it as a negative thing either, although a lot of people are moaning about how untrusthworthy Daario is. Personally I hope he proves to be better than people think, if nothing else but as a big FU to all the "Dany is a slut" complainers.

Regarding Margaery, she seems far more like the Queen of Thorns, i.e. she's in the game to play the game, not to get laid (or not). It's fairly certain Margaery and the QoT were the ones in charge of poisoning Joffrey, which means that Mace might want her to become queen, but she will be a part of deciding how and with which king (watch this space when Aegon comes into power, can you spell annullment due to non consumation? )

Even though Tommen is way too young, it seems she's dead set on having him enamoured with her. I think she does it better and subtler than Cersei though, whose problem has always been her heavy handedness more than anything else.



I actually thought she was pretty good with the manipulation of the Kettleblack dude (I can never tell them apart) and she clearly thought he was rather pretty to look at too. Even Littlefinger is not sure about that one's loyalty, so the jury is out on that one.

The only guy I think she should have avoided is Lancel. I mean...Lancel.


EDIT: And of course, as for manipulating men with sex, Asha pulls this off perfectly and she's not seen in a negative light. At least not yet!

Actually, Asha is shown in a sort of reluctant-to-be-worshipped light-she doesn't want Tristan following her with his fleet. Arianne is someone who uses sex to get things done and we saw how that turned out.

[Lyanna Stark]

Winterbreath, on 05 April 2012 - 04:34 AM, said:

Actually, Asha is shown in a sort of reluctant-to-be-worshipped light-she doesn't want Tristan following her with his fleet. Arianne is someone who uses sex to get things done and we saw how that turned out.

True on Arianne, but was that because she seduced Arys Oakheart though? The method there seems to have been less important than other factors, and Arianne is not seen in a less favourable light by it either. In fact, due to that entire debacle, Doran takes her into his confidence and spills the beans far more than he has before, so you could argue that the end result is that she's elevated.

Asha struck me as someone who likes having a bit of fun, but she doesn't want to be tied down with a man. Partly because that would mean she'd be denied freedom, but also because she's not actually encountered anyone she'd even consider sacrificing any freedom for. Asha wanted to rule in her own right, so why should she want to bow to some man for it? Her wish to be unbound reflects this, I think.

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 05 April 2012 - 04:58 AM.

[Winter's Knight]

Lyanna Stark, on 05 April 2012 - 04:57 AM, said:

True on Arianne, but was that because she seduced Arys Oakheart though? The method there seems to have been less important than other factors, and Arianne is not seen in a less favourable light by it either. In fact, due to that entire debacle, Doran takes her into his confidence and spills the beans far more than he has before, so you could argue that the end result is that she's elevated.

Asha struck me as someone who likes having a bit of fun, but she doesn't want to be tied down with a man. Partly because that would mean she'd be denied freedom, but also because she's not actually encountered anyone she'd even consider sacrificing any freedom for. Asha wanted to rule in her own right, so why should she want to bow to some man for it? Her wish to be unbound reflects this, I think.

Agreed on both points-I was just saying that Asha doesn't use sex to get ahead and ARianne's usage is a disaster-so that there really isn't a major female character who uses sex to achieve her own-rather than her father (figure)'s-goals who succeeds in the endeavour.

There is a male character, Littlefinger who does do so with success.

[Ran]

[Mod note]

Lets try to get back on the topic, folks, this has drifted off by quite a bit -- start a new topic, maybe, if you'd like.

[/mod]

[LadyMary]

Well, the acorn doesn't fall far from the tree. Cersei pushed a girl in a well to her death when she was just a child because the girl had a crush on Jaime. She hurt baby Tyrion (twisted his penis) in full view of visiting royalty from Dorne  (Elia and Oberyn). She gave people to Qyburn to use in his experiments and only complained about the noise from their screams - so they should be kept in the black cells where she didn't have to hear them. Jaime did at least one horrible thing on Cersei's behalf by pushing Bran out of the tower, but his other scandals were at least understandable in the circumstances (killing Aerys) - even if he got a lot of flack for it. He wasn't totally a lost cause.

In Joffrey's case, it's only a matter of degree. Cersei is at least contrained a bit by her sex because women don't have unbridled power in that society. She at least has a sense that certain kinds of actions have consequences, although more for political reasons, rather than having a sense of empathy for other people. Joffrey is unrestrained because he was raised by his mother to believe it's his right to do whatever he wants, and he learned from his believed-to-be Father's example  - because Robert did what he wanted and let others worry about ruling. For a kid who sees what he wants without the sense of responsibility that goes with power, he is truly a monster.

So, yeah, i think Joffrey's psychopathy is a combination of heredity and how his mother raised him.

[Lady Hodor]

Maybe, secretly, Varys disturbed Joffrey as a little boy, planning that he would turn sour, so that he would die at his own wedding.
Varys is smart that way.

[Ame]

Cersei and Robert share responsibility, but I am leaning towards Robert.

Cersei's responsibility-"He knows you won't hurt him" (Cersei) "and you will not hurt him either Tyrion Lannister! (Tyrion) You misunderstand he knows you will not hurt him but he doesn't know I will not hurt him so I could keep him from running amok" (Tyrion ACoK). That single line of conversation defines the Cersei Joffrey relationship, he is spoiled by the parent who actually puts time into raising him, and never disciplined. For things Cersei feels can't be allowed to pass she hires a boy to whip instead of Joffrey, and he works part time in the Tommen department to, some disciplinarian.

Robert's responsibility-When not abusing Joffrey Joffrey doesn't exist to him, and everything Joffrey sees him do is extremely easy to guide him into something horrible without proper guidance, and some things take a professional psychiatrist to avoid ruining. i.e. Joffrey sees Robert hit Cersei, and when Robert feels Joffrey deserves attention/punishment (he did but not what Robert gave) he punched him so hard the battle hardened Stannis thought Joffrey was dead, teaching Joffrey to hurt those weaker then you. He sees Robert hunt non-stop teaching Joffrey to hunt to please him (which Joffrey tries to do by killing cats and rabbits earning the punch), he sees Robert has dozens of women in a single week teaching him to keep a mistress (look what he does to Sansa) Robert refuses to listen to people actually concerned about running the kingdom well (Stannis, and Jon Arryn) which Joffrey picks up on to. As much as Joffrey picks up Cersei's vices he picks up Robert's actions. The way Joffrey idolizes Robert makes it even worst which is why when Robert says death would be a mercy for Bran in comes Joffrey ready to kill Bran. Everything Joffrey does is a slight corruption of what Robert did.

A little boy who watches his father hitting his mother will be effected. The fact that Robert was otherwise neglectful just made the situation worst.

Both parents share responsibility, and Jaime has zero responsibility.

Yes Jaime is the real father, but blood isn't everything.Yes he could have used being his uncle as an excuse to be in his life, but one slip would have meant all three of his children died. I don't blame Jaime for his decision, he didn't turn a blind eye to Joffrey's misdeeds or make them much worst through abuse and neglect.

[Fragile Bird]

LordHandsomeofHouseAwesome, on 05 April 2012 - 11:53 AM, said:

By heredity are you referring to the fact he's inbred, or that he inherited whatever Cersei's malfunction is?

I'd have to say its the result of inbreeding...remember, as a child he cut open a cat to get at the kitten fetuses(fetii?).  Look at the Targaryens, Aerys II and Viserys.  They may not be directly the products of incest, but years of it made for a shallow gene pool.  I think even though he's the first (known) Lannister to be the product of incest, I think with Jaime and Cersei being twins hastened the inbreeding process, y'know?

I know Joff grew up with horrible role models in a violent society, and he's spoiled rotten, but I think his parentage made him damaged goods to start off with.

There have been a number of threads that have discussed genetics,  and I was surprised to read that children of incest won't necessarily have physical or developmental problems unless there is some genetic tendency or actual problem with the DNA.  I'm probably not quoting correctly, but I gather it comes down to how many times in the family tree have there been close inter marriages.  It's noted that Joanna is a cousin of Tywin's, and a lot of people are interpreting this as first cousin, but there is no information about how close the relationship in fact is - she could have been a third or fourth cousin, for all we know.  So while I don't totally discount hereditary factors, I think I still lean towards how he was nurtured.

[Winter's Knight]

Ame, on 05 April 2012 - 12:17 PM, said:

Cersei and Robert share responsibility, but I am leaning towards Robert.

Cersei's responsibility-"He knows you won't hurt him" (Cersei) "and you will not hurt him either Tyrion Lannister! (Tyrion) You misunderstand he knows you will not hurt him but he doesn't know I will not hurt him so I could keep him from running amok" (Tyrion ACoK). That single line of conversation defines the Cersei Joffrey relationship, he is spoiled by the parent who actually puts time into raising him, and never disciplined. For things Cersei feels can't be allowed to pass she hires a boy to whip instead of Joffrey, and he works part time in the Tommen department to, some disciplinarian.

Whipping boys were used because it was believed that no one but the king could lay a hand on his children-although I don't know if Martin portrays that aspect in a realistic manner.

[Fragile Bird]

I would note, LordHandsome (hah hah, the rest is too long!) that studies of serial killers have shown that pretty well all of them tortured animals to begin with.  I can't quote the studies, but I have read reports of them.

[Lord Renly]

I think Joffrey is a textbook born sociopath. GRRM couldn't have included more symptoms if he tried, including the torture of animals. It doesn't matter that killing humans is morally worse--the point is that directly killing animals for fun is a sign of worse to come.

As far as responsibility is concerned, obviously both Cersei and Robert are responsible, but IMO Robert is more responsible. Cersei actually tries, albeit half-assedly, to teach Joff that it's "unkingly" to strike his wife.

Robert, by contrast, encourages him by his actions and words to be abusive to those weaker than him. It's to please Robert that Joffrey tries to kill Bran.

Plus, Robert is the KING. He could have shipped Joffrey off to foster at Winterfell, far away from Cersei, and Cersei wouldn't have been able to do anything about it. He chose not to. Robert could have countered both Cersei's bad influence and his own, but didn't. Cersei could have countered her own bad influence, but not Robert's.

Quote

What? That's utterly ridiculous. Not only have you cut out most of what I said, which is contrary to that part, but it's a natural reaction for some people to turn to violence. Are you really telling me that you've never reacted with violence towards someone? I highly doubt it. We are human beings, none of us are perfect. Do not judge me by your false standards. I was merely pointed out that Roberts' reactions, albeit the wrong ones, are natural, and make him seem very real and human to me. Cerseis' cold planning does not seem altogether human to me. I never said "smack the bitch in the mouth" either, you've paraphrased what I said to make it sound worse. I said she was a bitch, and I probably would smack her one if she treated me the way she treats some people. If you've never hit someone or something ever in your life, applause for you.

*snorts*

Oh, I see! You didn't say you'd smack the bitch in the mouth. You said she was a bitch and you would smack her. Well, that just makes it SO much better!

I've never hit anyone for being a "bitch." Yes, applause for me--I'm not a violent criminal. You think anyone would hit a woman for being a 'bitch,' that some people deserve a smack now and again, and that this is 'natural' and 'human.' Thinking and saying that makes you a despicable fool. If you've actually done this to someone, you are a violent criminal.

It's amazing how people get deranged on the subject of Cersei. She is a murderous villain who deserves execution for the lives she has taken, but fans consider her an uppity woman who needs to be smacked around by her male sexual partner for being 'bitchy.'

Edited by Lord Renly, 05 April 2012 - 02:58 PM.

[Fragile Bird]

@ Lord Renly

Are you up to date on the medical opinion on sociopathy?  Is it considered hereditary, genetic (evidence of damaged DNA) or generally due to upbringing (ie abuse).  You sound like you know, when you talk about "textbook case".  I only ask because my expectation is the material on the Internet is massive.

As for violence towards a spouse or family member, many people are raised with physical discipline and find it acceptable.  Spare the rod and spoil the child is a concept that IMO many posters apparently strongly believe in.  I assume their parents were judicious users of the smack and not generally users of violence.  The issue of whether or not a parent can use physical discipline is a whole other thread, as is the issue of whether spouses  using physical force against each other is acceptable.

Edit for gr.

Edited by Fragile Bird, 05 April 2012 - 04:17 PM.

[Queen Cersei I]

Re: Tommen and the whipping boy thing in AFFC:

Does anyone else find this behavior rather inconsistent with what we've seen of Cersei and her attitude towards (and treatment of) her children in earlier books? In earlier books, Cersei is fiercely protective of her children. We scenes of her interacting and spending time with not just Joffrey, but-- equally-- Tommen and Myrcella. (Actually, she seems to spend most time with Myrcella of all, having tea parties with her and Sansa and whatnot, but more on that later...)

She is fiercely protective of all her children, freaking out on anyone who even suggests they might do harm to them. In ASOS, Tyrion threatens to have Tommen whipped, and Cersei utterly flips out at the prospect of some harm coming to her beloved son.

And then suddenly, in AFFC, Cersei is willing to have Tommen witness other kids be beaten for the most minor of infractions at the drop of a hat, and even threatening to have him beaten brutally if his behavior persists? What the fuck? Not only has there been no evidence whatsoever of neglect, mistreatment, or abuse in the past, does a woman who is rearing to have her boy witness a boy beaten then possibly have him be beaten himself sound like the same one who flips out when her brother threatens to whip her kid in an earlier book?

And would the woman who constantly spends time with her daughter, freaks out and starts bawling about Myrcella being given away to Dorne in an arranged marriage, really spend the entirety of a book without thinking of said daughter even once?

Seems strange to me. Almost as though the desire to demonize Cersei got in the way of consistent characterization.

IMO, Cersei's enabling, over protectiveness, and smothering attitude are enought to qualify her an extremely misguided, even terrible mother. These qualities will affect her different kids differently, as they have different innate natures. Joffrey, as the subject of this thread, was enabled, encouraged, and indulged. Cersei not only failed to point out his sadism or try to curb it, she encouraged it. This, along with Robert's equally horrifying utter neglect, apathy, terrible example, and occasion of very influencial abuse (to teach Joffrey a  lesson about the cat, King Bob basically ended up showing the kid that violence towards those weaker then you is the best way to deal with your anger or problems. And no matter how "understandable" Robert's decking Joff may have been, I also don't think, as a moral lesson, it could have been more damaging) pretty much combined to ruin the boy.

Meanwhile, Tommen is not cruel at all, but somewhat frightened, weak, and sheltered.... it seems as though this is the natural place in his life for him to learn to stand up for himself, face his fears, and grow up. Cersei, through (imo, in this one case) understandable parental protectiveness, is holding him back and keeping him from doing this, from growing into the man and king he could and should be.

Edited by Queen Cersei I, 05 April 2012 - 04:37 PM.

[James Arryn]

This is like nature/nurture.

I doubt anyone is going to persuade the majority that either influence was the sole determinant. Obviously both parents are in the recipe.

To me, though, Cersei's demonstrated pathology lines up with Joffrey's pathology more than Robert's propensity for violence and self-indulgence. I think the 2 together make for a horrible combination, but I think Cersei is the John Lennon and Robert the Paul McCartney in terms of figuring out which one was the more exceptional in creating the exceptional.

If you get me.

[Lady of Long Lake]

I think Joff's evilness was inherited from his mother. Jaime does 1 vile deed but Cersei's vile deeds are numerous and go way back to childhood ( hurting baby Tyrion and killing her friend Melara by pushing her into a well )

[James Arryn]

LordHandsomeofHouseAwesome, on 05 April 2012 - 05:37 PM, said:

Robert's going to form Wings?

"Going to"?

The Band's been on the run in the Kingswood for a while. Pretty cool 70's costumes, too.

[LadyMary]

LordHandsomeofHouseAwesome, on 05 April 2012 - 11:53 AM, said:

By heredity are you referring to the fact he's inbred, or that he inherited whatever Cersei's malfunction is?

I'd have to say its the result of inbreeding...remember, as a child he cut open a cat to get at the kitten fetuses(fetii?).  Look at the Targaryens, Aerys II and Viserys.  They may not be directly the products of incest, but years of it made for a shallow gene pool.  I think even though he's the first (known) Lannister to be the product of incest, I think with Jaime and Cersei being twins hastened the inbreeding process, y'know?

I know Joff grew up with horrible role models in a violent society, and he's spoiled rotten, but I think his parentage made him damaged goods to start off with.

Yeah, I think there was something wrong with Joffrey's "wiring" in that he doesn't have the ability to emphathize with other people, just as Cersei seems to have a deficiency when it comes to empathy. On top of that, he was never raised to believe there were consequences for his antisocial behavior. That's the worst possible combination. But as far as we know, Cersei wasn't the product of incest...well, sorta. Her parents were first cousins not siblings.

At least Cersei understands the practical implications of her actions and cares about it - not because she cares about the people she hurts, but because she knows it can have a major blow-back that will make it more difficult to rule.

[Fragile Bird]

LadyMary, I don't think we know that Joanna and Tywin are first cousins, only that they are cousins.  We don't know the degree, 1st, 2nd, 3rd or whatever.  People often say they are 1st cousins, but I believe there is nothing in the books except "cousins".