219 replies to this topic

[Dracarya]

The King in the South, on 25 February 2012 - 12:18 PM, said:

You been making excuses for the past page about how he had to "govern the realm" and "kings ususally didn't raise their kids" when in reality he wasn't doing any of those things. You even go as far to say you can't call him lazy? Wtffff...Have we been reading the same books?

I don't think anyone is saying Cersei isn't responsible, but you make it seem like she is responsible for Robert's upbringing of Joffrey, which is completely false.

Rudeness, excellent. I wasn't attempting to make excuses for him by saying those things, I was merely mentioning them because they are relevant. I wouldn't call his approach to parenting lazy; in other things, yes I would. Yes we have been reading the same books, but they are open to interpretation, and while my interpretation of a character might be different to yours, it doesn't make either of us wrong.

And on the topic of Roberts' bastards, they all seemed to turn out fine. Obviously that's down to their mothers, but they showed no signs of anything near what Joffrey was like. Which is why I blame Cersei more for the incest, and so the bad genes, and her parenting. Maybe I'm wrong in that, but her having children with her brother not only slightly disgusts me, but it also makes it clear that having Cersei as a mother is damaging. Coupled with Robert, it was a disaster.

@ David Selig: I agree with you, I don't know how many times I've said that both of them were to blame. I can see why Cersei was angry with Robert over the cat incident, but Cersei did nothing about it. This is what I've been trying to say, and have said before - both Cersei and Robert failed in their parenting because they were complete opposites of each other. Cersei saw nothing wrong with Joffrey, never saw fit to chastise or discipline him; Robert went over the top when he did discipline him, but neglected to take proper care of him as a father should. With two parents like that, I'm not surprised Joffrey turned out the way he did. But his cruelty with the cat shows that he was innately wrong. The mixture of the incestuous genes, Cersei allowing him to do whatever he wanted and Robert taking no notice of him, along with having no constant, good father figure in his life, led to him becoming pretty much a monster.

[WenchofTarth]

Combination of both Robert and Ceresi sure.  Ceresi let Joff have and get away with anything he wanted, not exactly the best way to raise a kid.  Robert of course mostly annoyed him and probably when he was around was often drunk and angry.  Still the kid had a desperate need to please him which led to some unfortunate consequences there as well.

[The GreatRon]

Joffrey was a psychopath.  He fits the criteria

He just had most of his acts of cruelty done through others due to his high standing and the fact hes a coward deep down.

Cersei does as well.  And its known that genetics play a part in that disorder.

Being a "Psychopath" does not mean you have to be a serial killer.

Combine that with an uninterested "father" in Robert, an overbearing mother, your uncle is the Kingslayer, and being a child of incest you have Joffrey Baratheon.

Edited by The GreatRon, 25 February 2012 - 12:34 PM.

[FanTasy]

What I did find a bit odd is that we didn't hear of tutors, people who educated Joffrey how to be a king. The Stark kids, Shireen and Ned Storm we see being educated by maesters. Aegon has a whole bunch of people who teach him.
When we meet Joff he seems to be on his own. He was not considered a grown man when we meet him, was he?

ETA To answer my question: according to the Wiki he was 13 when he died. Does make it odd there is not one scene I can remember of him being educated or counseled, except by Cersei.

Edited by FanTasy, 25 February 2012 - 12:37 PM.

[Dracarya]

FanTasy, on 25 February 2012 - 12:34 PM, said:

What I did find a bit odd is that we didn't hear of tutors, people who educated Joffrey how to be a king. The Stark kids, Shireen and Ned Storm we see being educated by maesters. Aegon has a whole bunch of people who teach him.
When we meet Joff he seems to be on his own. He was not considered a grown man when we meet him, was he?

That's a thing I wondered about as well - I assumed that Tommen and Myrcella were tutored, presumably by a septa?, but there's no mention of anything for Joffrey. Along with no friends during his childhood. That's another reason why I dislike Cersei as a parent - it seems like she kept Joffrey close to her all the time, whispered poison in his ear and in effect ruined him as a person. If he'd had peers and tutors, perhaps he wouldn't have turned out so bad.

[brashcandy]

Fire&Blood, on 25 February 2012 - 12:36 PM, said:

That's a thing I wondered about as well - I assumed that Tommen and Myrcella were tutored, presumably by a septa?, but there's no mention of anything for Joffrey. Along with no friends during his childhood. That's another reason why I dislike Cersei as a parent - it seems like she kept Joffrey close to her all the time, whispered poison in his ear and in effect ruined him as a person. If he'd had peers and tutors, perhaps he wouldn't have turned out so bad.

Our first glimpse of Joffrey is when he comes to Winterfell and based on how he behaves there and subsequently, it's no wonder that he has no friends. He focuses on bullying and belittling others and knows that he'll suffer no reprisals from anyone. Tyrion is the person who seems to be able to talk back to him, and by this time, Joffrey's ways are already set. The only "friend" he has at this point was the Hound, and even he begins to desert Joffrey when they go back to KL.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

I wonder even with good parents how much could Joffrey be salvaged and what kind of a person he would be. I mean his parents were awful but this is a kid who  (probably) hires an assassin to kill Bran, dissects kittens, and is such a sadistic and sociopath little shit that he has something broken inside of him.

Edited by Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren, 25 February 2012 - 12:53 PM.

[Dracarya]

brashcandy, on 25 February 2012 - 12:49 PM, said:

Our first glimpse of Joffrey is when he comes to Winterfell and based on how he behaves there and subsequently, it's no wonder that he has no friends. He focuses on bullying and belittling others and knows that he'll suffer no reprisals from anyone. Tyrion is the person who seems to be able to talk back to him, and by this time, Joffrey's ways are already set. The only "friend" he has at this point was the Hound, and even he begins to desert Joffrey when they go back to KL.

Not sure if arguing, or reiterating my point. So..

Yes I agree. I wonder if Cersei never allowed Joffrey to make friends with other children in KL; maybe she thought they were "beneath" him, or that they'd influence him in a way that she didn't want him influenced. By the time we meet him, he is already set in his ways, and I've touched on it before about him having the Hound around. That definitely didn't help his attitude, knowing that he had someone who was so feared and looked as terrifying as the Hound does to back him up and defend him, so he could do and say whatever he wanted to others.

It's interesting how Tyrion is the only one who chastises Joffrey, like you said, and the Hound does nothing about it. I suppose Tyrion is the only one brave and/or stupid enough to try it in front of Sandor. I know Sandor doesn't like Joffrey, which is shown in his desertion - if he cared about Joffrey, he wouldn't have left him in the middle of a battle, scared of the fire or not.

[Revan Baratheon]

Hmm if Joffrey and Viserys had exchanged positions,do u guys think it wouldve been better for both their sakes?

[The King in the South]

Revan Baratheon, on 25 February 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

Hmm if Joffrey and Viserys had exchanged positions,do u guys think it wouldve been better for both their sakes?

Most of Viserys "evil" comes from a lifetime of mocking, fear, misplaced entitlement, hatred, etc...It's actually rather tragic. I don't think he would have been Jaehaerys reborn, but given a stable upbringing he would have been a thousand times better than Joffrey.

[headtrip_honey]

The King in the South, on 25 February 2012 - 01:02 PM, said:

Most of Viserys "evil" comes from a lifetime of mocking, fear, misplaced entitlement, hatred, etc...It's actually rather tragic. I don't think he would have been Jaehaerys reborn, but given a stable upbringing he would have been a thousand times better than Joffrey.

He may have still gone mad, although I agree with you that much of his "madness" was exacerbated by stress and anxiety.

[Revan Baratheon]

The King in the South, on 25 February 2012 - 01:02 PM, said:

Most of Viserys "evil" comes from a lifetime of mocking, fear, misplaced entitlement, hatred, etc...It's actually rather tragic. I don't think he
would have been Jaehaerys reborn, but given a stable upbringing he would have been a thousand times better than Joffrey.

Agreed.And would Joff have benifited more from a life in the wild free cities,away from the luxuries of court?(and fucked up parents)

[headtrip_honey]

Fire&Blood, on 25 February 2012 - 12:58 PM, said:

Not sure if arguing, or reiterating my point. So..

Yes I agree. I wonder if Cersei never allowed Joffrey to make friends with other children in KL; maybe she thought they were "beneath" him, or that they'd influence him in a way that she didn't want him influenced. By the time we meet him, he is already set in his ways, and I've touched on it before about him having the Hound around. That definitely didn't help his attitude, knowing that he had someone who was so feared and looked as terrifying as the Hound does to back him up and defend him, so he could do and say whatever he wanted to others.

It's interesting how Tyrion is the only one who chastises Joffrey, like you said, and the Hound does nothing about it. I suppose Tyrion is the only one brave and/or stupid enough to try it in front of Sandor. I know Sandor doesn't like Joffrey, which is shown in his desertion - if he cared about Joffrey, he wouldn't have left him in the middle of a battle, scared of the fire or not.

Joff used to "play" with Robert Arryn, until Lysa spirited him away. I doubt Joff was kind to the boy.

[The GreatRon]

Revan Baratheon, on 25 February 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

Agreed.And would Joff have benifited more from a life in the wild free cities,away from the luxuries of court?(and fucked up parents)

I think being away from Cersei would have helped him somewhat, but I really think he was born messed up.  A tougher life away from luxury could possibly end in the same result cause we know hes not a tough child at all, but with a strong father figure in his life in the free cities, possibly.

Edited by The GreatRon, 25 February 2012 - 01:13 PM.

[Dracarya]

headtrip_honey, on 25 February 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

Joff used to "play" with Robert Arryn, until Lysa spirited him away. I doubt Joff was kind to the boy.

Oh really? No I don't think he would have been either, considering how sickly Robert is, and a good few years younger than Joffrey I think?

[Dark Rider]

It's hard to say how much of Joffrey's character is attributable to inherited traits or genetics. The Lannisters have not always been cruel or cold and calculating throughout the ages.  So, I'm going to have to go with his character largely being the product of his environment.

Some men can make the best and most loyal friends, but are horrible fathers and husbands.  Some men just aren't built for family life and I think it's fair to say that is true of Robert Baratheon.  I think Robert would be awesome to get a beer with or to hang out with doing man activities, but I wouldn't want him dating my sister or look to him for parenting advice.  To top it off I think Robert was in a deep depression frankly and slowly drinking himself to death.  Surrounded by people he loathed and without the clear purpose of a soldier at war he was just deeply depressed.  So the mix of Robert's already not-so-family man character and his deep depression just meant that Joffrey had no one to teach him how to be a man.

I'm sorry, but women cannot raise men all they can do is take care of boys.  Just as men can't teach a girl how to be a proper lady.  As crowned prince there was no other male character who could dare ever say "no" to the little prince.  The only one who could really give him the discipline and drive to achieve would have been his father who unforuntately did not. I cannot understate the value of a boy having a male mentor, which is as important to their development as water is to a fish.  Mothers should cuddle their children and tell them they're special, but it is the Fathers who should be there to remind them that they're not special for drawing breath and that actions define who you are. The balanced approach to parenting is what makes it easy for a leader to truely develop. Tyrion tried his best to reign in Joffrey even before Robert's death, but because he wasn't his father and didn't devote his entire life to the boy he couldn't have much an impact unfortunately.

In the end Joffrey is no different than juveniles who get into trouble with the law throughout their lives well into their adulthoods.  He's reached the age in the book where he's just damaged beyond repair and he has become who he will always be and that's a damn shame.  If Vary's was really concerned first and foremost with the realm he would have seen to Joffrey and insured he had a better upbrining or at least tried, but I think he's a Targ loyalist or Blackfyre supporter more than anything.

Edited by Dark Rider, 25 February 2012 - 01:20 PM.

[headtrip_honey]

Fire&Blood, on 25 February 2012 - 01:18 PM, said:

Oh really? No I don't think he would have been either, considering how sickly Robert is, and a good few years younger than Joffrey I think?

Yep, six years younger. Lysa mentions at some point that Joff had been cruel to Sweetrobin, iirc.

[Silmarien]

Fragile Bird, on 24 February 2012 - 09:02 PM, said:

I think we can all agree that Joffrey is a seriously disturbed young man.  What we can't agree on is why an innocent child grew into, dare we say, a monster.  When the topic of Joffrey comes up in threads, very strong views are inevitably presented on what kind of a person he is and how he got there.  And there are a lot of very, very unsympathetic views on his character.

So how did Joffrey grow into the individual he was?

Was it because Robert couldn't relate to his own child (or so he thinks) the same way he could relate to some of his bastards, and therefore created a child so hungry for father love that Joffrey got twisted?

Was it because Cersei so spoiled her first born and gave him free reign to grow wild that he went from being a royal flower to royal poison ivy?

Were they both to blame for hating each other so much there was no love to give to their child?

Was it just genetics?  Why aren't Tommen and Myrcella twisted then?

Does the genetic father have to shoulder some blame?  Should Jaime have ignored Cersei's instructions not to involve himself in Joffrey's life?  Couldn't he have done it in the role of "Uncle Jaime"?

I'd be happy to hear the full range of opinion on this topic, because the range is huge.

Lack of strong father figure (and neglect from father figure)
Also, he seems like Cersei 2.0 (see Maggy the Frog, her storming into her tent and telling her she'll be whipped for insolence if she does not read their fortunes....at age 10).

[brashcandy]

Dark Rider, on 25 February 2012 - 01:19 PM, said:

In the end Joffrey is no different than juveniles who get into trouble with the law throughout their lives well into their adulthoods.  He's reached the age in the book where he's just damaged beyond repair and he has become who he will always be and that's a damn shame.  If Vary's was really concerned first and foremost with the realm he would have seen to Joffrey and insured he had a better upbrining or at least tried, but I think he's a Targ loyalist or Blackfyre supporter more than anything.

I'd argue that Joffrey is very different from those types. His wasn't simply a trouble maker, or a misunderstood, wayward boy. There is something profoundly sociopathic and disturbing about Joffrey's behaviour. He's the type that could easily develop into a serial killer.

[JonHo]

Doesn't make sense how Tommen and Myrcella turned out alright. Tommen has a good heart, a sweet boy. Myrcella is really mature for her age and intelligent. But I have the feeling they were kind of ignored, especially by Robert.