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Is Tommen going to die?


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#161 Ame

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 02:31 AM

^^ except for the prophesy that says that all of cerseis children will die before her.


All of the princes listed died of natural causes before their parents which is why they never became kings; I listed Henry V because everybody knows who he was but don't know that he died shortly after. There has never been a non legendary King Arthur in English History.

#162 Towel

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 02:35 AM

Uh... Yeah... What you're saying has nothing to do with the thread.

#163 James Arryn

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 02:49 AM

All of the princes listed died of natural causes before their parents which is why they never became kings; I listed Henry V because everybody knows who he was but don't know that he died shortly after. There has never been a non legendary King Arthur in English History.


I wouldn't go that far.

King Arthur as depicted in the Romantic traditions, no...but there is a lot of evidence that someone, probably of Romano-British origins, very possibly named Artorius did check the Saxon advance of Bretwaldas like Aele, and for a generation or more actually reverse the tide.

#164 Ame

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 03:08 AM

Uh... Yeah... What you're saying has nothing to do with the thread.


It does, Tommen could die of natural causes. No offense but when you call out other peoples posts do please try reading them.

I wouldn't go that far.



King Arthur as depicted in the Romantic traditions, no...but there is a lot of evidence that someone, probably of Romano-British origins, very possibly named Artorius did check the Saxon advance of Bretwaldas like Aele, and for a generation or more actually reverse the tide.


I agree, but that was a matter of Britons, while England became Britons the Romano British were actually fighting the Saxon and Engle ancestors of modern England but I agree I did misphrase /drunk.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':drunk:' />

eta- I am actually impressed that so few people have died of natural causes so far.

Edited by Ame, 18 March 2012 - 03:09 AM.


#165 Towel

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 03:13 AM

I never once said he wouldn't die of natural causes. I responded to someone who said he wasn't going to die.

Before YOU quote people, do try reading.

#166 James Arryn

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 03:19 AM

I agree, but that was a matter of Britons, while England became Britons the Romano British were actually fighting the Saxon and Engle ancestors of modern England but I agree I did misphrase /drunk.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':drunk:' />



LOL, ok, there you have me.

#167 Miryana

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 03:28 AM

Even if I believe her, it's only rape if you post-apply contemporary morals. An understandable thing to do, especially if that kind of issue has a particular gravity for you, but problematic when reading any historical or pseudo-historical fiction that makes any attempt at consistency.

At the 'time' concurrent with Westeros' other moral standards, not only would Robert's sexual violence not be considered rape, but not having relations,however welcome, with some kind of regularity with his wife would be seen as be a failure of duty as a husband and especially noble/king. And Cersei's refusals would also be seen as a significant failure of duty. It must also be remembered that at the time a woman's role in sex...and I don't just mean from the male perspective, but equally from her peers...was submission and procreation. Not only was a wife's finding pleasure in the act unnecessary, it was commonly viewed with suspicion.


I know all that. I also know that Westeros is a fictional world created by a 20th/21st century author who doesn't appear to believe, for example, that Tyrion deserves to be treated as subhuman and to lose the Rock because he is a dwarf, or that Brienne deserves to be raped and ridiculed because she is an ugly woman who wants to fight with a sword and is good at it. The books are full of characters that I would argue we are meant to see from a modern lens - Tyrion, the "freak" wronged by people blinded by their prejudice; Brienne and Arya, the admirable warrior women; Asha and Arianne, the women who enjoy sex. The application of a limited historical perspective is not, I would argue, the best way to read books - if it were, we'd see a lot more discussion about how Tyrion, Brienne, Arya, Asha and Arianne are dangers to society and morality and should be locked away or killed. But they all tend to be rather popular; Tyrion and Arya are perhaps the most popular male and female character, exactly because they are modern - the underdog and the tomboy. If sexual violence is the topic that most consistently and fervently invites defences based on historical contextualisation, while the characters' many other violations of mainstream medieval thought and morality go unremarked, I don't think it's a credible argument. if it were, it would be applied consistently across all areas of life in Westeros and Tyrion and Arya would be among the least popular characters.

People are not just members of their society, they are individuals. The characters are characters, not just a hivemind. If Cersei's memories of her marriage to Robert match the reactions of a woman who felt herself violated and humiliated even though her society doesn't have a legal definition of her experience as rape, I don't see why some people are so insistent on saying that it can't be rape. Today, does a 51% majority opinion on an issue, or 75% etc, mean that the 49% or 25% opinions are seen as nonexistent and totally invalid by the majority? No. They're real, they're just the minority, and in some cases aren't supported by the law. But they're real, and they have the potential to change the society and become the next majority. Why would it be any different in Westeros? Why should the legality of marital rape invalidate Cersei's experiences of violent and unwanted sex when even Robert himself felt shame over his treatment of her, or the existence of Tywin invalidate the existence of Ned, a man who holds completely opposite views when it comes to protecting the lives of innocent children? What is the "right" Westerosi standard we should attach ourselves to? There's so many to choose from. The Westeros of the books, or the past of the Western Europe that serves as its model, isn't an inflexible mass that allowed only one opinion and compelled individuals to follow it exactly.

It's brutal, but then so were the times. So was feudalism, arbitrary execution, serfdom/slavery, gross inequity, warfare, and all kinds of other practices we accept as party to the times the story takes place in. I don't see why some issues being selectively perceived through a modern moral lens is going to enhance our understanding. It's like 'killing another human being in horrible'. Most people in a modern context would agree. And yet when we analyze the actions of the characters in ASOIAF, we don't break down each and every example of someone killing someone else, but contextualize it relative to the established standards of the time. Hence Ned killing the deserter isn't a moral wrong, but rather an example of his personal integrity. In a modern context we'd only imagine someone like a Saddam wanting to personally execute someone.

But it doesn't get in the way because our expectations are not that a man from another age uphold the moral standard we hold today.


I don't quite get "I don't see why some issues being selectively perceived through a modern moral lens is going to enhance our understanding." What do you think is the proper moral lens? That of Tywin, Roose, Robert or Ned? All are members of the same society, and all have widely different views on what is moral and acceptable when it comes to an issue like the sexual abuse of children or women. What should our understanding be?

#168 Towel

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 03:32 AM

^^^ so tommen will or won't die?

#169 Lady Val

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 03:55 AM

With stannis, danny, aegon out there mustering forces will Tommen die? Or will he just be demoted to jamie's bastard, and the two of them live happily ever after in the westerlands.? Is there anyway Tommen will make it out alive? And never count out Randal Tarley, he is going to do something big. Like overthrow the tyrells and switch alligiances, and killing boys that are "weak" like tommen or sam seems like something he could do.

SO what are your thoughts?!

Remember that both the Tyrells and the Tarlys stayed loyal to the Targaryens to the bitter end. Mace Tyrell is going to find himself in QUITE the predicament.. I can only hope he doesn't think he can get away with marrying Margaery off to seal their alliance to yet ANOTHER king. That would just be redundant, though admittedly laughable since Jon Connington will allow nothing of the sort.. Only a MAJOR amount of scheming and plotting seasoned with a bit of betrayal and treason could have allowed the Tyrells to marry their precious little rosebud to THREE DIFFERENT FRIGGIN' KINGS! Its not that far fetched to think that Randyll Tarly will try to hop on the bandwagon with the shining Targaryen kingling, possibly hoping to win their trust by disposing of the Red Keep's current occupants.. Just a random thought.

I personally want Aegon to be real SOOO badly.. He is just what Westeros needs, from what we know of him so far. Everything a king should be. And if he is thought to truly be the son of Rhaegar, the smallfolk will adore him. I think that's why the Swords & Stars were reformed -- when the first Aegon conquered 300 years ago, the High Septon prayed for 7 days and 7 nights and decided not to oppose Aegon and his sisters. He marked the beginning of his reign as the day he was annointed in Oldtown, where the High Septon used to reside. I think (hope) that Aegon VI will waste no time in winning the Faith to his cause, and won't that chap Cersei's exposed little ass! Clearly she already has more than ample reason to rue the day she knelt before the altar of the Father and haggled with the High Sparrow - basically he bought the right to form his own army for just under a million dragons.. Connington would call that cheap at twice the price. I feel like the High Septon was actually hoping that a Targaryen would come back to claim the throne. He was hesitant to annoint Tommen as rightful king before gods and men, almost as if he was waiting for something.. like the return of the rightful king/queen, perhaps!? Lemore instructed Aegon in matters of the Faith for years. He is probably the perfectly pious little princeling, and the Swords & Stars could likely make all the difference in the conclusion of the War of Five Kings. (Do you think they'll rename it now that there have been not five, but seven kings and a queen?! - if Dany ever sets foot in Westeros and she does, indeed want to share the rule with Aegon - if he truly is Aegon)

Just started looking at forums yesterday, but I eat, sleep, and breathe ASOIAF. Hope to contribute to more discussions to come! So happy that there are others out there as obsessed as me!

#170 voodooqueen126

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 04:36 AM

Uh... Yeah... What you're saying has nothing to do with the thread.

I guess she is positing a natural, but still premature death for Tommen.
having said that, in novels where such an ending works (ie the hero or heroine dies of disease or other natural disasters) then it tends to be foreshadowed:
Such as Daisy Miller's death from malaria (Malaria=bad air=Daisy dies from gossip which is bad air).
Or the death of the heroine and her brother in Mill on the Floss (there are floods, mentioned throughout the text).

#171 The Sleeper

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 05:00 AM

I know all that. I also know that Westeros is a fictional world created by a 20th/21st century author who doesn't appear to believe, for example, that Tyrion deserves to be treated as subhuman and to lose the Rock because he is a dwarf, or that Brienne deserves to be raped and ridiculed because she is an ugly woman who wants to fight with a sword and is good at it. The books are full of characters that I would argue we are meant to see from a modern lens - Tyrion, the "freak" wronged by people blinded by their prejudice; Brienne and Arya, the admirable warrior women; Asha and Arianne, the women who enjoy sex. The application of a limited historical perspective is not, I would argue, the best way to read books - if it were, we'd see a lot more discussion about how Tyrion, Brienne, Arya, Asha and Arianne are dangers to society and morality and should be locked away or killed. But they all tend to be rather popular; Tyrion and Arya are perhaps the most popular male and female character, exactly because they are modern - the underdog and the tomboy. If sexual violence is the topic that most consistently and fervently invites defences based on historical contextualisation, while the characters' many other violations of mainstream medieval thought and morality go unremarked, I don't think it's a credible argument. if it were, it would be applied consistently across all areas of life in Westeros and Tyrion and Arya would be among the least popular characters.


The treatment you describe is precisely what these characters get by other characters in the context of the book. Tyrion is barely acknowledged and when he is, he gets blamed for nearly everything (twisted little monkey demon), Brienne is universally treated as something between a freak and a joke and Asha is denied power by people who otherwise acknowledge both her legal right and her abilities out of sheer prejudice. Arya is described being the outsider in her family and was on her way to the point where her "quirks" would stop being cute and start becoming a problem as she got older and her single biggest asset so far in her struggle for survival is other people's failure to see her as a threat.

I also don't think that Martin's intentions for reader's reactions are so clear cut. I think that his approach to them is almost clinical and he has inserted many points of contention in the text regarding nearly all of them. The huge range of reactions to characters in this forum is a testament to that.

Edited by just an Other, 18 March 2012 - 05:01 AM.


#172 The Sleeper

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 05:12 AM

Regarding the actual topic of this thread.

Tommen is the child king sitting on an unstable throne. He might as well have a bullseye painted on his forehead for any faction that wishes to destroy the Lannister/Tyrell alliance. The prophesy seems to indicate that he is going to be beieved to be dead by Cersei at the least.

I don't see the Tyrell's having a part in it though. They are as close to power as they can get, sort of claiming the kingship for themselves, and it would take quite extreme actions and circumstances to disentangle themselves.

I think his most probable killer is either of the sand snakes heading for King's Landing.

#173 jon's_mom

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 05:20 AM

(nice reply Miryana I think you won that academic argument)

As for will Tommen die? It's pretty much a given isn't it? Maggie the Frog seems pretty bang-on with everything else. The only loophole for flexibility I can see is that it doesn't exactly say when Cersei will be strangled to death.

You can see the prophecy here http://www.westeros....ies/Entry/1827/

I do remember it saying somewhere in the books that Cersei was born after Jaime, so that puts Jaime into the potential "vonqar" category as "little brother". So in my opinion I think Cersei will die because either Jaime or Tyrion will strangle her to death.

The question is when? Well Tyrion has said repeatedly he wants to rape and kill his sister since his flight from King's Landing. So Tyrion getting his revenge would be what?... a year at the max from the end of book 5?

Or Jaime strangling Cersei to death? I don't think so. Even when Jaime was acting an arsehole he'd never strangle someone to death. He'd only do it with a sword. Now that Jaime has found "religion" in the Kings Guard White Cloak; well he'd never strangle a woman. Plus Jaime is probably dead by now anyways.

So in conclusion I think Cersei will die to Tyrion in the next book (Book 6) and Tommen will die before her.


P.S. GRRM is totally in love with his character Tyrion, so we know he'll never kill Tyrion off. Anyone else is fair game however.

#174 Ame

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 02:05 PM

I never once said he wouldn't die of natural causes. I responded to someone who said he wasn't going to die.

Before YOU quote people, do try reading.


I apologize for the misunderstanding then it was my fault, I thought your post was pointing to mine, could ya forgive me?

#175 Queen Cersei I

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 02:50 PM


For the sake of the totally ridiculous argument that has absolutely no purpose in a thread about whether TOMMEN WILL OR WILL NOT DIE.


Yes, and as I mentioned earlier, I was veering slightly off topic and wanted to get back on topic. However, your choice to specifically argue against me here kind of goes against your repeated admonitions against others to stay on topic.

The only time we hear this is from her.

Not surprising, seeing as how her and Robert would (presumably) be the only two people in the room when he raped her. (Or, if you want to get into the whole, “there was no rape back then,” when Robert held her down, pinned her to the bed, and forced her legs apart.)


 And she's known to lie.


Why she would lie in her own head in recollections she makes an effort not to speak to anyone I admit—I do not know.

There is also the fact that Robert forcing Cersei sexually goes along perfectly from what we saw (firsthand) of their relationship; of Robert’s treatment of Cersei; of Robert’s own comments about Cersei (“from the way she guards her cunt, you’d think she had all of the gold of Casterly Rock up there”) and of Jaime’s fears that Robert would forcibly claim his marital rights with Cersei again.


For the sake of the totally ridiculous argument that has absolutely no purpose in a thread about whether TOMMEN WILL OR WILL NOT DIE.


And while your desire to keep on topic is, once again, admirable, Towel, I can’t help but feel you may be getting just the slightest bit... overzealous in your constant comments that people are off topic. For instance:


And what does any of this have to do with the topic at hand?



Uh... Yeah... What you're saying has nothing to do with the thread.



^^^ so tommen will or won't die?



I can appreciate and admire your desire to keep the thread on topic Towel, but with all do respect, there are mods for that. That’s not to say that its not totally legitimate to remind everyone that they’re off topic every once in a while, but at this point, your 4 to 5 stand alone comments that people are off topic are at least as jarring as the O.T.ness itself that you clear to be against, if not more so.

Also, your tendency to use the “off topic” thing to respond to anyone you disagree with, while overlooking the exact same level of off topicness in posters whose messages you agree with might be seen by some as a tad hypocritical. Also, some of your own responses seem just as o.t., for instance:


I seem to remember her as describing Tyrion sleeping with hookerbots as rape too.

(if not then my bad)



Oh, and by the way—Cersei never calls Tyrion sleeping with “hookerbots” /huh.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':huh:' /> as rape.

I guess she is positing a natural, but still premature death for Tommen.
having said that, in novels where such an ending works (ie the hero or heroine dies of disease or other natural disasters) then it tends to be foreshadowed:
Such as Daisy Miller's death from malaria (Malaria=bad air=Daisy dies from gossip which is bad air).
Or the death of the heroine and her brother in Mill on the Floss (there are floods, mentioned throughout the text).

Yep, I agree, but, imo, i think the whole point of Tommen's upcoming inevitable death is that it is not going to be natural, thus all the more tragic.

As for the vulnerbility of life in the middle ages-- this is true, however, clearly, there is a much lower mortality rate with kids in Westeros. With the maesters, medicine appears far, far more advanced than it is in our society. Yet another reason why the "consider things in the context of Westeros" comparisons with the middle ages do not quite pan out.

IMO, Tommen will die from someone murdering him, and one does not have to look far to realize who that murderer is going to be.

Edited by Queen Cersei I, 18 March 2012 - 03:00 PM.


#176 Towel

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:51 PM

Yes, and as I mentioned earlier, I was veering slightly off topic and wanted to get back on topic. However, your choice to specifically argue against me here kind of goes against your repeated admonitions against others to stay on topic.


Im not arguing against you. I was trying to go with the flow since it seemed the topic was no longer about tommen.


Not surprising, seeing as how her and Robert would (presumably) be the only two people in the room when he raped her. (Or, if you want to get into the whole, “there was no rape back then,” when Robert held her down, pinned her to the bed, and forced her legs apart.)



Seems like her brother/best friend never mentioned it either.


Why she would lie in her own head in recollections she makes an effort not to speak to anyone I admit—I do not know.



She seems to lie to herself a lot. ( about Margaery and her cousins are the easiest to remember off hand)


There is also the fact that Robert forcing Cersei sexually goes along perfectly from what we saw (firsthand) of their relationship; of Robert’s treatment of Cersei; of Robert’s own comments about Cersei (“from the way she guards her cunt, you’d think she had all of the gold of Casterly Rock up there”) and of Jaime’s fears that Robert would forcibly claim his marital rights with Cersei again.


He's brash I agree. Again i wasn't arguing that it never happened. Just saying that the only person who ever mentioned it was a known liar.



And while your desire to keep on topic is, once again, admirable, Towel, I can’t help but feel you may be getting just the slightest bit... overzealous in your constant comments that people are off topic.



Im not really an admirable dude, just easily annoyed.



I can appreciate and admire your desire to keep the thread on topic Towel, but with all do respect, there are mods for that. That’s not to say that its not totally legitimate to remind everyone that they’re off topic every once in a while, but at this point, your 4 to 5 stand alone comments that people are off topic are at least as jarring as the O.T.ness itself that you clear to be against, if not more so.


Sorry if it came off that way.






Also, your tendency to use the “off topic” thing to respond to anyone you disagree with, while overlooking the exact same level of off topicness in posters whose messages you agree with might be seen by some as a tad hypocritical. Also, some of your own responses seem just as o.t., for instance:


Oh, and by the way—Cersei never calls Tyrion sleeping with “hookerbots” /huh.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':huh:' /> as rape.


This was me trying to go with the flow after it was clear it wouldn't be getting back on topic. Also i was watching futurama




IMO, Tommen will die from someone murdering him, and one does not have to look far to realize who that murderer is going to be.




Ser Pounce?

#177 Lord Damian

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 09:56 PM

My guess is that Tommen will die before Aegon takes the Iron Throne, it might by a Tyrell Bannerman that does it because after being defeated by Aegon's forces, the Tyrells will bend the knee or Margeary might be found guilty and they lose any legal hold on power therefore "proving" themselves loyal to the new king is essential. Ironic, this is the same explaination Tywin gave Tyrion for the killing of Rheagar's children. He had to prove his loyalty to Robert way back then.

#178 Brown Ben Plumm

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 02:10 PM

Think it will be Cersei to kill Tommen and Jaime to kill Cersei in a fit of rage (they're his kids too) and dying in the fight with his sister, arm in arm with the one woman who he truly loved, and yet who is a monster.

#179 Ser Jaime the Humbled

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 02:13 PM

He could potentially flee into exile via Viserys and Dany if given the opportunity.



#180 Ser Davos' finger bones

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 02:29 PM

Yes, Tommen will die. I agree with the posters saying that Cersei will be the one to kill him. Whether she does this accidentally or on purpose I cannot say, but ultimately I think she will be the one at fault, horrifying as the thought is.