Heresy 7

[Black Crow]

Welcome to the latest incarnation of the Heresy thread. If you’ve been around on the board for a while you’ll know all about it.

If you’re new it questions fundamental assumptions that the Others are necessarily evil – and GRRM himself has cautioned that it aint that simple – and that our heroes will unite with the aid of the Children and Dany’s Amazing Dragons to save the world.

We have trying to figure out what’s really going on up North, who the White Walkers really are (and countering some urban myths about them) and where the Starks fit in to a history that is far shorter than we’ve been led to believe and is as unreliable as some of the narrators employed by GRRM.

We prefer to remember that the Starks are Kings of Winter, to look at the textual clues pointing to connections with the old gods and look forward to a resolution in which the principal characters are opposing protagonists rather than ranked together against a faceless foe.

We also have a lot of fun and some very civilised arguments

As for the earlier threads start off with this one which has some useful resumes including the complete Old Nan's Tales:

[Black Crow]

Right off we go again...

The previous thread finished up by looking at familiars and the likelihood that just as the Starks are linked with direwolves, the Blackwoods appear to be linked with ravens. The significance of this being that while one Brynden Rivers is chiefly known as a Targaryen loyalist, he was named by his mother (ADwD), a Blackwood and appears to have been brought up in the traditions of the Old Gods rather than in the Light of the Seven; hence being Bloodraven and now sitting amongst the Children with his raven familiars.

As to when he "switched" and knew he had to go beyond the Wall, we have a shrewd suspicion there may have been a visit from the three eyed crow while he lay in the darkness of the black cells.

[FanTasy]

Interesting posts in Heresy 6 (good grief, did you expect this amount of sequels to happen, Black Crow?) about skinchanging into eggs.

While we never read anything about Dany trying to get into the skin of animals, there is some interaction between her and the dragon eggs.

In another thread I brought up that Dany is described holding an egg to her pregnant belly, taking it to her bed at night. The text says she held the other eggs also.

Not so long after this scene Dany felt life in one of the eggs.

Rhaego was a dragonlike creature. Scaled, a stub of a tail and leathery wings.

It was also described as "long dead".

I had a theorette that supposed that some of the life force of the unborn Rhaego was passed into the egg when Dany was holding it ETA to her pregnant belly. And that maybe the dead fossiled embryo of the egg gave some of his dead state to the unborn Rhaego.

It is not a nice thought, but it could explain why Rhaego was not only dragonlike, but also long dead in a period where Dany is descibed to still feel life in her womb

And it fits with "only death can pay for life". The transferring of the life of the unborn Rhaego for the life of a dragon.

Interestingly what happened in the Dothraki Sea is similar to what Melisandre wants: sacrificing 'kings blood' to wake dragons from stone, by paying death for life. This one she got right: Dany prooved it can work.

About Bloodraven: anybody read anywhere (Dunk and Egg maybe) why he called himself Bloodraven?

[Eyron]

I missed that the last thread was locked and was patiently waiting for new interesting posts!

Well, Bloodraven, I could talk about him all day... :)

We briefly discussed if he was playing the game of thrones still, or if he is genuinely trying to help the Children and the men of the realm.

I hold the position of him trying to save the realm, but whether this includes throwing back winter, or something else I am not at all certain.

However, Leaf tells Bran that Bloodraven lingers for us, for you, for the realms of men (paraphrasing). That suggests to me that he is not playing any game, but we don't know how truthful Leaf is of course, or if she would even know if BR's intentions were anything different. That he or she uses the phrase for the realms of men reminds me of the Night's Watch oath, so that could point to him still feeling loyal to that institution, and still fighting for the same purpose.

He has watched the Starks in Winterfell, at least Eddard and Bran, he has followed their birth and their lives, and he is most likely the 3-eyed crow that contacted Bran during his coma. If he is the 3EC he then showed Bran the heart of winter and said that is why Bran must live, because winter is coming. That makes me believe that he and Bran is important in the time to come, that they will help men survive winter, and fight, because that's what men do. It also points to BR knowing something that we don't about the Starks and winter, and that something led him to intervene to bring Bran to the Children's cave with Jojen and Meera. It gives me the feeling that he remembers what the Starks are suppose to do, what the north is supposed to remember, and that it is not the dragons that are the instrument to success. It's possible that he have little choice here, and that he would focus on Dany and dragons if he could, but we have no evidence of that yet.

[Eyron]

FanTasy, I assumed that it was because of the birthmark, it's red and supposedly looks like a raven. I don't know where I got it from though...

ETA: Post count M! :cool4: How did I manage that?

[FanTasy]

Nice post Eira. I am very curious if the dragons will be part of what happens at the Wall. Dany's vision of torching an army armoured in ice ETA at the Trident suggests that if there is a confrontation Others-dragons it is not at the Wall.

So maybe we have seen the most of the Wall and what lies beyond it, after the battle in the north that GRRM promised will happen in TWOW.

Which would fit with that the p.o.v. character there has some unfinished business in the crypts of Winterfell and that I suspect that there is another active stronghold of the Children at the Isle of Faces.

Which on the other hand does not fit with that Bran was herded to that cave beyond the Wall, if he was the 'weapon' the COTF needed to replace Bloodraven.

[FanTasy]

FanTasy, I assumed that it was because of the birthmark, it's red and supposedly looks like a raven. I don't know where I got it from though...

Ah thanks! Forgot about that birthmark. Red, some said it looked like a bird.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

So maybe we have seen the most of the Wall and what lies beyond it, after the battle in the north that GRRM promised will happen in TWOW.

Which would fit with that the p.o.v. character there has some unfinished business in the crypts of Winterfell and that I suspect that there is another active stronghold of the Children at the Isle of Faces.

Which on the other hand does not fit with that Bran was herded to that cave beyond the Wall, if he was the 'weapon' the COTF needed to replace Bloodraven.

It's possible that the main reason BR manipulated events to bring Bran north was so the CotF could feed Bran the "weirwood paste". This effectively installs Bran's weirnet connection software, which could not be done remotely. Now Bran will be free to depart and get back in the Game, instead of just watching and influencing from a distance.

I hope this is the case because 1) Summer doesn't seem to be doing all that well up north, and 2) I don't want to see Meera stuck in that cave for the rest of the story.

[Lummel]

... Dany's vision of torching an army armoured in ice ETA at the Trident suggests that if there is a confrontation Others-dragons it is not at the Wall...

It's never surprised me that Dany has a dream about a massive battle on the Trident when that was the decisive battle that transformed the fate of her and her family. Dreams and visions like that might be foreshadowing, might be a picture of her state of mind (visualising her problems as one mega battle and her enemies as icy when she is so closely associated with fire) or might be GRRM leading us up the garden path (again).

ETA spelling gone to pot again.

[Eyron]

Thanks FanTasy!

I like the idea of the soul of the baby transferring into the dragon egg like that, it's how I imagined it too. But I'm not sure it really explains how all three dragon eggs came alive...

But if that is how the dragon eggs became alive, maybe the blood and fire sacrifice is then needed to hatch the egg.

The kingsblood business (two kings to sacrifice) is what I think makes this child-sacrifice idea plausible, we actually have a source for it and we got to see that Rhaego died right before the dragons hatched, and Drogo and Mirri was burned, Mirri still living... It could be coincidence that this is how it happened but, well it seems to me it probably wasn't.

I'm not suggesting that the children were ritualistically burned or anything like that, but that they had to give up a child to bring a dragon to life.

Hm, we keep going off topic here so I will stop!

[mrazny]

Falling down that Dark Sister rabbit hole just a little bit more...

Now when I say support, I mean general logic, not textual...I'm not making canon :)

Here's some more support, even though it's pretty much a re-hashing. I believe BR to loyal to the Watch, loyal to the Targaryens, and loyal to Men as much as he can be and still service the greatest good that he can. I think he is a man capable of compromise and tough decisions to get to that place, and I'm not sure i can point to X number of pieces of evidence to make this claim, it's the overall feel i have for the man based on how character's have talked about him, Bran's two chapters with him, and the Mystery Knight D&E novella.

With my given that BR is loyal to the Watch, and my general belief that he felt he can make his way to the cave with his bow alone (which he preferred to his sword), he would be best served giving his sword to the man he felt most capable and likely to be the LC. Now, I'd also assume that he would instruct that LC to not claim it to be Dark Sister as that would bring the Targaryen's north to re-claim the sword, but to instead make up an ancestry from his house instead. That LC would see what instilling the loyalty based on the sword can make and keep the tradition going.

Yes, Mormont says it was his family sword. But I'd also say this; that particular lie (assuming it is one), works better to instill loyalty and trust in Jon in my opinion than saying this is Dark Sister, the sword of legend wielded by Bloodraven in the Blackfyre Rebellion, or even simply saying it's the Lord Commander's sword of office, which he can't truly do if the LC is supposed to be elected.

There is some chance with this and the LC position, but then again you don't need a Loyal LC at all times, you just need a loyal and capable man of the Watch, which in any case that seemed to be the case in Jon. Mormont started early. Jon would've been well-served to broker similar loyalty with Bowen Marsh.

Speculative in all for sure...

[Black Crow]

good grief, did you expect this amount of sequels to happen, Black Crow?

Err... no.

I suppose we must be doing something right - as well as having fun. :cheers:

[Black Crow]

I believe BR to loyal to the Watch, loyal to the Targaryens, and loyal to Men as much as he can be and still service the greatest good that he can. I think he is a man capable of compromise and tough decisions to get to that place, and I'm not sure i can point to X number of pieces of evidence to make this claim, it's the overall feel i have for the man based on how character's have talked about him, Bran's two chapters with him, and the Mystery Knight D&E novella.

Not sure. I still favour a Bran moment with the three-eyed-crow.

Bloodraven is both a Targaryen and a Blackwood and the Bloodraven we see in the D&E novellas is a loyal member of House Targaryen. His reward is to get locked up and that's the point in his life where I think the three-eyed-crow comes in, while he's lying locked up in the darkness of the black cells (OK its not stated that's where he was but it wouldn't have been safe to leave someone of his reputation anywhere else), embittered and vulnerable - just as Bran was lying crippled in the dakrness of a coma, and just as Jon is about to be.

Bloodraven was offered his freedom and a purpose in life beyond the Wall in return for embracing his Blackwood side, Bran was offered his freedom and a purpose in life beyond the Wall, and soon Jon will be too - presumably as King of Winter.

Bloodraven does indeed speak of the realm, but is he not speaking of Westeros - healed. As I recall healing the land is a prominent theme of Celtic tradition.

[mrazny]

Bloodraven is both a Targaryen and a Blackwood

My overall impression is that BR has in effect transcended either identity, and is instead something more that encompasses both, much like the identity of the Watch has men leaving their houses behind. I don't believe BR's loyalty would be Watch over Targaryen, Targaryen over Blackwood, or any degree of one over the other. So loyalty is perhaps the worst word possible, since it implies that you hold one the most over the others. If i had to guess he would choose the Watch as slightly higher since it has more ability to do what's needed, where brother's can cause friction and issues that never needed to be there in the first place, which he knows all too well with how the Targaryen family has ended up handling things. 300AL BR considers how best the realm is benefited (and yes, the realm is also beyond Westeros), and if the realm is not the worse for keeping Targaryens better off, he would still prefer that in my mind.

OTHER ( :devil: ) things on the mind... The show isn't canon as far as i can tell, but even without it being canon the preview for Season 2 made me reevaluate some of the major players in the who can be trusted as *right* sweepstakes.

The preview re-stages Bran's first chaper in ACOK, where Bran sees the comet and Osha says "dragons". It felt new when watching it, and really it only felt new because of how Bran's chapter goes. He doesn't look up at the comet, in fact he talks about Summer's howling, which leads to Luwin saying it's just because the wolves think the comet is the moon because its so bright, leads to Osha saying it's "Fire and Blood, boy, and nothing good", leads to septon charyle saying it's a herald of the change of seasons, leads to Old Nan who has to smell the comet since she's blind to say finally "Dragons".

Osha, as a wildling, supposedly would only have old traditions to draw upon to say "fire and blood", and not necessarily 1-300AL targaryen effects on westeros information if basically the Wildlings don't have direct access to the south of the wall. The implication is this meant fire and blood from a time either before the wall, or time where the Andals effected the wall enough to have that association with the comet.

It's Old Nan who would have a more complete picture of westeros history in full that says "dragons", which could be drawing upon a much more recent Targaryen infused basis for the meaning of the comet.

Though it would be much more interesting if it meant dragons even before the Targaryen's came over...

[FanTasy]

Osha, as a wildling, supposedly would only have old traditions to draw upon to say "fire and blood", and not necessarily 1-300AL targaryen effects on westeros information if basically the Wildlings don't have direct access to the south of the wall. The implication is this meant fire and blood from a time either before the wall, or time where the Andals effected the wall enough to have that association with the comet.

It's Old Nan who would have a more complete picture of westeros history in full that says "dragons", which could be drawing upon a much more recent Targaryen infused basis for the meaning of the comet.

Though it would be much more interesting if it meant dragons even before the Targaryen's came over...

Yes, the quote for 'fire and blood' by Osha made me wonder too.

Pre-Targaryen dragons being a threat the wildlings knew about? Hardhome maybe?

Or the same legend that girl from Lys(?) Dany met believed in? The dragons fall from the sky, probably meaning a comet?

Or it is reference to the Targaryens or the Prince that was promised/Azor Ahai prophecy. We know there were small party's of wildlings climbing the Wall and passing it. Some of them would return, with story's to tell.

And we know Bael travelled south of the Wall and came back with songs.

We have another wildling that seems to know a lot, Ygritte. Maybe the story's the wildlings grew up with were not that different than the story's Old Nan told in the North, and Samwell's mother in the South.

[Black Crow]

One of those blinding flash moments while commenting on another thread...

If Rheagar Targaryen(Dragon)+Lyanna Stark(Ice Queen of Winter) = Jon, is indeed true, then Jon is not merely the song of Ice and Fire - standing in the middle between the two:

He is the Ice Dragon and Dany and her Amazing (Fire) Dragons are doomed!

[jon rr stark]

On the question of the white walkers and others if you believe them to be different or perhaps not all the same. Where do we see the song of ice and fire being played out. Who's on the ice side and whos on the fire side. And does anyone know what the balance is that has being upset. I dont go with the white walkers being different from the others, however I do believe there is a link in the past with Starks and a reason why 1. there is always a stark at winterfell and also why there there nearly always is one on the wall. Also what is the significance of Brandon Stark who seem to pop up alot. The Builder (stark?) the NK, our lost Brandon, Nan's Kid being a Brandon, Bran under the tree.

Ice dragons is there one or is it just harking back to that old book GRRM wrote. In the Jon death not death scene one thing struck me was his last feeling of all the warmth being drawn out or lost from him. This had resonances of both white walkers and ice dragons. I want him to be or have an ice dragon from the wall.

[Black Crow]

Pretty well all of this has already been discussed in the various incarnations of the thread and I'm sure some of the other heretics will be glad to chime in, but I don't want to monopolise the whole thing so I'll just stick with the Ice Dragon thing.

The point we've been discussing about the earlier story is that while GRRM has said that Adara's world is not that of the Song of Ice and Fire he's clearly developing that story and much it appears to foreshadow what's going to go down in Westeros, including intriguing bits like the Ice Dragon saving Adara by destroying three Fire dragons.

As to Jon, on other threads Apple Martini has argued strongly that despite all the evidence Dany can't be AA because she's too obvious, to which my response has been that doesn't matter because the blinder is that while she's AA she isn't going to save the world because she and her dragons require to be defeated before they chargrill everything.

Until earlier today I was beginning to wonder if perhaps the R+L=J business wasn't just a shade too obvious either, but the blinder here is that vision about Rhaegar speaking of the Song of Ice and Fire. While acknowledging that Rhaegar was referring to Aegon not Jon, the assumption all along has been that as the son of Rheagar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark Jon represents Ice and Fire and therefore the balance between them.

However what gets overlooked is that the Targaryens always refer to themselves as Dragons and therefore Jon is not half Fire per se, but specifically half dragon/half ice, ie: the Ice Dragon that's been hinted at several times.

He's not about to sprout leathery wings or anything daft like that, he's just the Dragon (Targaryen) who will be King of Winter (Ice)

[lokisnow]

has the possibility popped up that Craster is leaving his sons for the CotF not for the White Walkers?

[Black Crow]

That depends on whether there's a relationship between the Children and the White Walkers/White Rangers, because they are the ones collecting the boys and if Craster's women are to be believed coming back to visit.

My own view harking to Jon RR Stark's question above is that the White Walkers are not the one and only "Others", but that the term actually encompasses the Children and the other Old Races as well.