assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 The key to me is the analysis of Stannis' place amongst the Baratheon brothers: "Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends."To Stannis, he is now the rightful heir to the throne, period. Once he is settled on that question, it's the end of the matter. He even instructed the knight he sent off across the Narrow Sea to hire mercenaries to put Shireen on the throne even if he were to be killed. I'm sorry, but I think poor old Stannis would die before acknowledging a superior claim.I agree with this, except that at this point the Targaryens do not have a "superior claim." They can take the throne back militarily, but there's no legal heft if they land and say, "We're Targs, give us the throne." The Baratheons defeated the Targaryens, the Baratheons are now the royal family. Stannis' claim is actually the legitimate one here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puenboy Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 Aegon? Maybe. Dany would likely have Stannis beheaded before he could even kneel. She hates all of them, Baratheons, Lannisters, Starks, Arryns. I doubt that she would kill the innocent boy-lords but she would kill Stannis or Ned (if he was still alive) due to her hatred of Robert's allies. She believed that Rhaegar and Aerys were walking saints and Robert and his allies walking devilspawns, refusing to believe that Rhaegar started the war (regardless if it was lust or duty) and Aerys lost the war himself by mistreating Tywin, requesting the head of innocent boys (Ned & Bob), which Jon Arryn loved like a father, who was also in a marriage pact with house Tully, losing the Lannisters and giving the enemy 4 great houses against Aerys' 3 (including the Targaryens), putting Aerys in quite a disadvantage as Tywin and Balon sit and watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionAhaiReborn Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 A related question. Assuming Dany manages to take the Iron Throne by force, that she somehow does this without killing Stannis in the process, and that she truly cannot have children, is Stannis her heir because of his distant Targ blood? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarnius Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 This ******* killed his own Brother, Renly for the stupid crown and if he bends the knee to someone else, what was the point? Renly died for nothing?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 A related question. Assuming Dany manages to take the Iron Throne by force, that she somehow does this without killing Stannis in the process, and that she truly cannot have children, is Stannis her heir because of his distant Targ blood?I'll do you one better.If the Iron Throne can't pass to a woman unless all male claimants are dead, Stannis' claim is better than Dany's anyway, even if you accept Targaryen legitimacy at this point, which I don't. But yeah, assuming she wins by right of conquest and ignores the hyper-Salic Law, Stannis or the Martells would be the only feasible heirs if she dies childless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerFelixCulpa Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 I agree with this, except that at this point the Targaryens do not have a "superior claim." They can take the throne back militarily, but there's no legal heft if they land and say, "We're Targs, give us the throne." The Baratheons defeated the Targaryens, the Baratheons are now the royal family. Stannis' claim is actually the legitimate one here.Oh, I agree with you there. I meant "superior claim" in the sense that, were Stannis to defer to another claimant, he would (at least in his mind) be admitting a superior claim. He cannot conceive that anyone other than the rightful King can have the best claim. He also is resentful of a lifetime of, in his mind, not having received his due, both during Robert's lifetime and now after. He's just not going to let that go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reek it rhymes with meek Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 A related question. Assuming Dany manages to take the Iron Throne by force, that she somehow does this without killing Stannis in the process, and that she truly cannot have children, is Stannis her heir because of his distant Targ blood?You forget aegon is up the ladder even above dany in matter of succession Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 This ******* killed his own Brother, Renly for the stupid crown and if he bends the knee to someone else, what was the point? Renly died for nothing?!What are you even doing in this section when you haven't finished reading the books? You're begging to have things ruined for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingerly Grumkin Posted February 27, 2012 Author Share Posted February 27, 2012 A related question. Assuming Dany manages to take the Iron Throne by force, that she somehow does this without killing Stannis in the process, and that she truly cannot have children, is Stannis her heir because of his distant Targ blood?I guess. Or Aegon.Another question who has a better claim (deriving from Aegon I) Dany or Stannis?What about Viserys or Aegon VI (assuming he is real) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingerly Grumkin Posted February 27, 2012 Author Share Posted February 27, 2012 Renly died for nothing?!Renly lived for nothing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerFelixCulpa Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 Renly lived for nothing fashion.Fixed that for you. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerFelixCulpa Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 You forget aegon is up the ladder even above dany in matter of successionCitation needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionAhaiReborn Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 I'll do you one better.If the Iron Throne can't pass to a woman unless all male claimants are dead, Stannis' claim is better than Dany's anyway, even if you accept Targaryen legitimacy at this point, which I don't.But yeah, assuming she wins by right of conquest and ignores the hyper-Salic Law, Stannis or the Martells would be the only feasible heirs if she dies childless.I was under the impression that a daughter would come before a male cousin though. Like, for the Baratheon dynasty: assuming that Cersei's kids are legitimate and assuming that Stannis or Renly had a son, and then both Joffrey and Tommen died, wouldn't Stannis or Renly's hypothetical son still be after Myrcella in the line?You forget aegon is up the ladder even above dany in matter of successionNo I didn't forget about Aegon I just don't believe he has long to live/is the real deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 Citation needed.Well if he's real, he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 I was under the impression that a daughter would come before a male cousin though. Like, for the Baratheon dynasty: assuming that Cersei's kids are legitimate and assuming that Stannis or Renly had a son, and then both Joffrey and Tommen died, wouldn't Stannis or Renly's hypothetical son still be after Myrcella in the line?Oh no no no. All male claimants means all male claimants. Thanks, Dance of the Dragons.The show kind of hints at it, too.1. Sansa asks Septa Mordane what would happen if she only had girls, and the septa says the throne would go to Tommen.2. Renly tells Loras that he's "fourth in line." Joffrey's first, Tommen second, Stannis third and Renly is fourth.ETA: This is succession specifically as it relates to the Iron Throne, to clarify. Lordship succession obviously works differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerFelixCulpa Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 Well if he's real, he is.Aye, that was my point.But I'll give odds Aegon isn't. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jory Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 *clears throat very loudly* JON SNOW. Bye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Knight of ... Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 I was under the impression that a daughter would come before a male cousin though. Like, for the Baratheon dynasty: assuming that Cersei's kids are legitimate and assuming that Stannis or Renly had a son, and then both Joffrey and Tommen died, wouldn't Stannis or Renly's hypothetical son still be after Myrcella in the line?Yeah, this is what the whole Karstark plot in DWD was about. If Harrion is dead, Alys still comes before Arnolf or Cregan.No I didn't forget about Aegon I just don't believe he has long to live/is the real deal.Well even if Aegon is a Blackfyre he could still be considered to have a claim, just not stronger than Dany's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 Yeah, this is what the whole Karstark plot in DWD was about. If Harrion is dead, Alys still comes before Arnolf or Cregan.The Iron Throne succession works differently though. Ordinarily — like in taking possession of a lordship or castle — a daughter would come first. But the succession for the Iron Throne doesn't work in the same way. After the Dance of the Dragons, women could only inherit the throne after all possible male claimants were dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingerly Grumkin Posted February 27, 2012 Author Share Posted February 27, 2012 What about Viserys or Aegon VI (assuming he is real) :agree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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