The Wise Man's Fear VII (Spoilers and speculation)

[williamjm]

It's somewhere in the very beginning of the series, right after the Chronicler recognized the innkeeper as Kvothe. He's trying to persuade Kvothe to tell his story and is rattling off all the different rumors swirling around. I'm pretty sure I recall (and I've seen other people on this thread mention) that one of those rumors is that there is a new Chandrian running around. Can anyone else confirm?

What Chronicler says seems to imply that the rumour is that Kvothe is the new Chandrian, which I think he is just using as an example of how wild rumours can get in the absence of Kvothe telling his own story:

Chronicler shook his head slowly. “The stories are saying ‘assassin’ not ‘hero.’ Kvothe the Arcane and Kvothe Kingkiller are two very different men.” Kote stopped polishing the bar and turned his back to the room. He nodded once without looking up. “Some are even saying that there is a new Chandrian. A fresh terror in the night. His hair as red as the blood he spills.”

[Sci-2]

Thanks - it does imply that the Chandrian are no longer a silly story, and that the Seven are (possibly) active in some public fashion.

[bradd]

Ser Scot - on the Chandrian, I'm not convinced that the whole world knows about them yet. If Old Cob thought they were real, wouldn't it make more sense for him to not mention them? People have been telling "ghost" stories about them for centuries, how if you say their name bad things will happen... I'm not sure, but I'd think that if they turned out to be real, people would be scared of their names (or at least he would be talking in a hushed whisper or something?). As for the scrael - I haven't really thought much on recently but (as cliche as it is) I bought into the Tel'aran'rhiod idea - that the waystones were portals connecting the Fae and 4C worlds at specific locations. In all of this the moon is the key - I think something has happened to the moon so that the barrier is easier to cross than it was before. Ergo, we have a bunch of monsters who used to be "locked" in the Fae realm now making their way across to the 4C. A few interesting thoughts though - is there any significance to the fact that Kvothe called his inn the Waystone? As in, is there something special about it? And the other one... was there a Waystone somewhere near the fountain in Imre where the big fight occurs?

Red Wedding - There you go, a plausible answer... for the life of me I couldn't figure one :) So maybe Felurian was "cursed" to become a member of the Chandrian, even though she didn't want it, and it's this "curse" that causes the blight? I guess you could apply that to all of the Chandrian - maybe they're all people that Haliax has "cursed"/"shaped" to be on his side and their "powers" are just a consequence of this? This is plausible - though I dare say there are some Chandrian that enjoy it (eg Cinder). Might explain why Kvothe got the impression that Haliax had some power over the other Chandrian the first time he met them?

TeaSpoon - I like it :) Under that theory, can you explain why the creator of the Chandrian vase thought the moon was significant to Haliax?

I'll give you the rest of my theory on the events in the third book here.

Assumption 1 - The Loeclos Box contains the obsidian stone

Assumption 2 - The picture in Jumbles' avatar is the same Amyr depicted on the Chandrian Vase :)

Conclusion - Kvothe breaks his promise to Denna and goes after her patron. He finds out her patron is Cinder/Ferule and they start to fight. At some point the Amyr Andan comes along (who we know as Dagon) and joins in the fight against Kvothe. Kvothe kills Dagon/Andan.

Argument - I guess I kinda cheated a little here by using materials outside the books themselves. On his blog, PR implies that the picture in Jumbles' avatar has some sort of significance to the plot of the story, and was drawn by someone who knew the outcome of the series. I don't think it's such a leap to assume that it is related to the picture on the Chandrian vase, showing an Amyr leaving a burning tower. The one thing that strikes me as odd about the picture is that the Amyr is bald. Bald guys aren't very common in KKC and I reasoned that if the artist was drawing a "generic" Amyr it would make more sense to give him hair - hence, I believe this is a specific member of the Amyr. Looking through NoTW and WMF, the majority of bald characters are all overweight, which to me doesn't really fit the idea of an Amyr (eg Master Brandeur). There is one major character though that is described as being both lean and bald - Dagon. The image of the Amyr in that picture to me is exactly how PR describes Dagon. From my last post I gave an argument that Kvothe kills the Amyr on the Chandrian vase - if this picture is the same as the one on the vase, then I propose that the Amyr who has turned bad is Dagon, and that Kvothe kills him. I've taken a wild stab in the dark here as to which Amyr he actually is, but from Skarpi's descriptions, the most likely candidate is Andan (whose name means anger, and has eyes full of hate). There's not an overwhelming amount of evidence for that conclusion but it seems to fit OK :)

OK next step with Cinder - sure, there's all the Ash=Cinder, almost naming "Ferule", etc etc evidence, but I've looked at it from another angle. If the Loeclos box contains the Obsidian Stone, I completely agree the likely candidates for the Cthaeh are either Selitos or Haliax. I think thistlepong has nailed it with all the evidence for Selitos so I'll take that as a given. OK, so assuming the Cthaeh=Selitos, consider what he actually says to Kvothe. I think it's safe to assume that everything the Cthaeh says to Kvothe is important - sure he could have said "Hey Kvothe buddy, did you know it rained here last week?" but then what would that actually accomplish? Sure, maybe Kvothe goes out to buy an umbrella but you get my drift... in terms of significant things that the Cthaeh says to Kvothe, I get "go to the Adem", "Cinder is a bad guy", "Denna's patron is a bad guy" and "stick by the Maer". So by knowing each of these things, Kvothe must react differently in certain circumstances to how he would of if he did not know them... else, what's the point? The "go to the Adem/stormwal" one is obvious - Kvothe went to learn from the Adem. The "stick by the Maer" one is interesting - Kvothe was always planning on going back to the Maer, and then when he did go back he left almost straight away. So these words from the Cthaeh seem pointless - but I'll get back to that one in a bit :) The other two (Cinder/patron) again seem kind of pointless - Kvothe already hates both of them - but I can offer an explanation here. What if future Kvothe (who had not talked to the Cthaeh) ran into Cinder on the street. Would he fight him? Maybe not - maybe he would run because he was worried that he wasn't strong enough... the guy is a Chandrian after all. But now future Kvothe (who has talked to the Cthaeh) runs into Cinder in the street. Would he fight him now? The guy who did unspeakable things to his mother? You betcha! Likewise for Denna's patron - there's a chance that if Kvothe ran into him before the Cthaeh that his behaviour might get explained away. Now? No way - Kvothe will attack him for hurting Denna. So one of the big future changes that the Cthaeh makes may be to force Kvothe to fight Denna's patron. Why would he do this? Denna's patron obviously knows a lot about the Chandrian and the Amyr, so I think it's safe to say he is associated with one or the other in some context. If Cthaeh = Selitos, this votes in favour of her patron being Chandrian rather than Amyr (why would he turn Kvothe against an Amyr?). With all the evidence presented so far for Denna's patron = Cinder, I think altogether this idea is plausible.

Right, and as for linking the two - I think agapi summed it up well a few pages back (Thread VI, Page ). Kvothe fought a demon (Cinder) for his heart's desire (Denna) but slew an angel (Andan/Dagon) instead. This theory answers so many questions -

1. Why did Kvothe think Skarpi would be the first to find him? Because Skarpi is high up in the Amyr and Kvothe killed one of them.

2. Why did the Cthaeh say Kvothe would laugh out loud about his "Stick with the Maer" line? Because after Kvothe kills Andan/Dagon, he will realise that the Cthaeh knew this would happen all along, and that he was manipulated to kill one of Selitos' enemies (a traitor to the Amyr).

3. What is the "bad turn" that Cinder did to the Cthaeh? Sided with a traitor Amyr.

4. Why couldn't Dagon find the bandits stealing tax money? Because he was working with their leader.

5. Why did Kvothe say that Dagon looked familiar? This is a bit of a long stretch, but there was a bald man at the campsite where his parents were killed. Dagon with a beard? If the first time he saw him was with facial hair, then the next time without he would definitely seem familiar.

ETA: Changed point two to "Stick by the Maer". Also changed assumption to "same person as on the vase" as the Amyr on the vase has a helmet on.

[two_by_two]

I was thinking about how the Fae were changed to be long-lived/immortal and how they all live in their special little dimension when something occurred to me.

Notice how all the chandrian take away energy from their surroundings? What if the Chandrian are drawing power from their various sources?

Cyphus bears the blue flame.

Stercus is in thrall of iron.

Ferule chill and dark of eye.

Usnea lives in nothing but decay.

Grey Dalcenti never speaks.

Pale Alenta brings the blight.

Last there is the lord of seven:

Hated. Hopeless. Sleepless. Sane.

Alaxel bears the shadow’s hame.

Cyphus might be drawing power from the electromagnetic spectrum, since blue light contains less energy than yellow light.

Ferule might be sucking out the heat from her environment.

Usnea might be taking energy from chemical reactions and speeding them up by lowering the activation energy required

Dalcenti might be taking energy from sound, causing silence

Alaxel, like Cyphus, might be sucking up light altogether and causing darkness.

I'm not sure about Stercus, but maybe he's drawing power from magnetism, thereby making ferromagnetic materials unferromagnetic and causing permanent magnets to lose their magnetic state. As for Alenta, maybe she's drawing power from life and causing death, though there's no such thing as "life energy." Or maybe she's drawing power from cellular activity, causing it to slow down or stop.

The theory I have is that the Fae need to be in Faerie in order to stay long-lived/immortal. If there wasn't something keeping them in Faerie most of the time, wouldn't there be diplomatic relations between Faerie and the human world? Wouldn't there be exchange programs and embassies? Even when the Fae visit the mortal realm, they only stay for a single night and make sure to return home before the night is over.

The Chandrian, on the other hand, are immortal and in the human world. Instead of being signs, what if the blue flame and all that stuff are side-effects of their various methods of staying alive? Think about it. Sympathy is all about changing energy from one form into another. Maybe there's a way of becoming immortal by using advanced sympathy or naming to draw energy from natural phenomena.

And this brings me to the Fae realm. I'm getting more speculative, but bear with me. Before Iax, every shaper made their own little corner of Faerie and created a star to fill the empty sky. What if, instead of creating the star, each shaper "stole" their stars and drew on them to power their little dimensions and keep them young? Then Iax came along and he pulled the entire moon into the Faen realm and suddenly Faerie wasn't just a playground for the powerful and wise but became habitable for an entire race of immortal people.

To the people in the human realm, it must have been an act of war. These shapers were seceding from the Empire and the people in charge don't like it when that happens. They were taking all the most talented people and, more importantly, stole the goddamn moon. Maybe the Empire needed the moon to power their own works.

So a way broke out that lasted for centuries, and the Empire was winning until the Chandrian brought about the fall of their cities.

[EDIT] Another wild speculation: What if the pre-Fae people were long-lived/immortal until Iax stole the moon? Felurian was alive before the Fae existed and stayed alive by emigrating to the Fae realm.

It should be noted that blue light actually has much more energy than yellow light. The rainbow ROYGBIV goes from lowest frequency to highest, hence infrared (below red) and ultraviolet (above violet). I think this idea is fascinating, although I thought the point of naming/shaping as opposed to sympathy/sygaldry was that naming/shaping work outside the normal physical rules - they are true magic.

NB: I include shaping with naming not with intent to parallel it with sygaldry's inclusion with sympathy but merely for convenience, since we don't really know anything about it.

Ser Scot - on the Chandrian, I'm not convinced that the whole world knows about them yet. If Old Cob thought they were real, wouldn't it make more sense for him to not mention them? People have been telling "ghost" stories about them for centuries, how if you say their name bad things will happen... I'm not sure, but I'd think that if they turned out to be real, people would be scared of their names (or at least he would be talking in a hushed whisper or something?). As for the scrael - I haven't really thought much on recently but (as cliche as it is) I bought into the Tel'aran'rhiod idea - that the waystones were portals connecting the Fae and 4C worlds at specific locations. In all of this the moon is the key - I think something has happened to the moon so that the barrier is easier to cross than it was before. Ergo, we have a bunch of monsters who used to be "locked" in the Fae realm now making their way across to the 4C. A few interesting thoughts though - is there any significance to the fact that Kvothe called his inn the Waystone? As in, is there something special about it? And the other one... was there a Waystone somewhere near the fountain in Imre where the big fight occurs?

Wow I can't believe I didn't make the connection that the inn is called the Waystone. I'm not sure if it has any significance besides being a traditional Ruh place to "lay down your load," but still; how did I miss that. Durr.

It is implied that the waystones are gateways in the poem I just quoted, though yeah it is a bit cliched. Does anyone have any speculation on what the rest of the poem Arliden recites is?

Like a drawstone even in our sleep

Standing stone by old road is the way

To lead you ever deeper into Fae.

Laystone as you lay in hill or dell

Greystone leads to something something "ell."

I can't help feeling that it must be important, but perhaps you guys have trained me too well to search for meaning where there likely is none.

Red Wedding - There you go, a plausible answer... for the life of me I couldn't figure one :) So maybe Felurian was "cursed" to become a member of the Chandrian, even though she didn't want it, and it's this "curse" that causes the blight? I guess you could apply that to all of the Chandrian - maybe they're all people that Haliax has "cursed"/"shaped" to be on his side and their "powers" are just a consequence of this? This is plausible - though I dare say there are some Chandrian that enjoy it (eg Cinder). Might explain why Kvothe got the impression that Haliax had some power over the other Chandrian the first time he met them?

"You are a tool in my hand. Nothing more." That's all.

TeaSpoon - I like it :) Under that theory, can you explain why the creator of the Chandrian vase thought the moon was significant to Haliax?

I'll give you the rest of my theory on the events in the third book here.

Assumption 1 - The Loeclos Box contains the obsidian stone

Assumption 2 - The picture in Jumbles' avatar is the same picture depicted on the Chandrian Vase :)

Conclusion - Kvothe breaks his promise to Denna and goes after her patron. He finds out her patron is Cinder/Ferule and they start to fight. At some point the Amyr Andan comes along (who we know as Dagon) and joins in the fight against Kvothe. Kvothe kills Dagon/Andan.

Argument - I guess I kinda cheated a little here by using materials outside the books themselves. On his blog, PR implies that the picture in Jumbles' avatar has some sort of significance to the plot of the story, and was drawn by someone who knew the outcome of the series. I don't think it's such a leap to assume that it is a reproduction of the picture on the Chandrian vase, showing an Amyr leaving a burning tower. The one thing that strikes me as odd about the picture is that the Amyr is bald. Bald guys aren't very common in KKC and I reasoned that if the artist was drawing a "generic" Amyr it would make more sense to give him hair - hence, I believe this is a specific member of the Amyr. Looking through NoTW and WMF, the majority of bald characters are all overweight, which to me doesn't really fit the idea of an Amyr (eg Master Brandeur). There is one major character though that is described as being both lean and bald - Dagon. The image of the Amyr in that picture to me is exactly how PR describes Dagon. From my last post I gave an argument that Kvothe kills the Amyr on the Chandrian vase - if this picture is the same as the one on the vase, then I propose that the Amyr who has turned bad is Dagon, and that Kvothe kills him. I've taken a wild stab in the dark here as to which Amyr he actually is, but from Skarpi's descriptions, the most likely candidate is Andan (whose name means anger, and has eyes full of hate). There's not an overwhelming amount of evidence for that conclusion but it seems to fit OK :)

It should also be noted, and this is a point that was brought up waaaaayyyy long ago, the picture of the Amyr and the burning tower? The fire is blue. Now, apparently (I'm drawing from memory, as it has been almost a year since I read the early threads) the original picture in color does not exist anywhere on the internet any more, but people recall the fire being blue then as well. Just throwing that back out here so we can discuss it with our new theories about the Amyr.

OK next step with Cinder - sure, there's all the Ash=Cinder, almost naming "Ferule", etc etc evidence, but I've looked at it from another angle. If the Loeclos box contains the Obsidian Stone, I completely agree the likely candidates for the Cthaeh are either Selitos or Haliax. I think thistlepong has nailed it with all the evidence for Selitos so I'll take that as a given. OK, so assuming the Cthaeh=Selitos, consider what he actually says to Kvothe. I think it's safe to assume that everything the Cthaeh says to Kvothe is important - sure he could have said "Hey Kvothe buddy, did you know it rained here last week?" but then what would that actually accomplish? Sure, maybe Kvothe goes out to buy an umbrella but you get my drift... in terms of significant things that the Cthaeh says to Kvothe, I get "go to the Adem", "Cinder is a bad guy", "Denna's patron is a bad guy" and "stick by the Maer". So by knowing each of these things, Kvothe must react differently in certain circumstances to how he would of if he did not know them... else, what's the point? The "go to the Adem/stormwal" one is obvious - Kvothe went to learn from the Adem. The "stick by the Maer" one is interesting - Kvothe was always planning on going back to the Maer, and then when he did go back he left almost straight away. So these words from the Cthaeh seem pointless - but I'll get back to that one in a bit :) The other two (Cinder/patron) again seem kind of pointless - Kvothe already hates both of them - but I can offer an explanation here. What if future Kvothe (who had not talked to the Cthaeh) ran into Cinder on the street. Would he fight him? Maybe not - maybe he would run because he was worried that he wasn't strong enough... the guy is a Chandrian after all. But now future Kvothe (who has talked to the Cthaeh) runs into Cinder in the street. Would he fight him now? The guy who did unspeakable things to his mother? You betcha! Likewise for Denna's patron - there's a chance that if Kvothe ran into him before the Cthaeh that his behaviour might get explained away. Now? No way - Kvothe will attack him for hurting Denna. So one of the big future changes that the Cthaeh makes may be to force Kvothe to fight Denna's patron. Why would he do this? Denna's patron obviously knows a lot about the Chandrian and the Amyr, so I think it's safe to say he is associated with one or the other in some context. If Cthaeh = Selitos, this votes in favour of her patron being Chandrian rather than Amyr (why would he turn Kvothe against an Amyr?). With all the evidence presented so far for Denna's patron = Cinder, I think altogether this idea is plausible.

Right, and as for linking the two - I think agapi summed it up well a few pages back (Thread VI, Page ). Kvothe fought a demon (Cinder) for his heart's desire (Denna) but slew an angel (Andan/Dagon) instead. This theory answers so many questions -

1. Why did Kvothe think Skarpi would be the first to find him? Because Skarpi is high up in the Amyr and Kvothe killed one of them.

2. Why did the Cthaeh say Kvothe would laugh out loud about his "Stick with the Amyr" line? Because after Kvothe kills Andan/Dagon, he will realise that the Cthaeh knew this would happen all along, and that he was manipulated to kill one of Selitos' enemies (a traitor to the Amyr).

3. What is the "bad turn" that Cinder did to the Cthaeh? Sided with a traitor Amyr.

4. Why couldn't Dagon find the bandits stealing tax money? Because he was working with their leader.

5. Why did Kvothe say that Dagon looked familiar? This is a bit of a long stretch, but there was a bald man at the campsite where his parents were killed. Dagon with a beard? If the first time he saw him was with facial hair, then the next time without he would definitely seem familiar.

Yes. Good stuff. I like. Or perhaps instead of siding with a traitor Amyr, Cinder is responsible for the turning of the Amyr, or the slaying of another. Or something.

Additionally, if we want to get punny about "stick with the Amyr," recall that ferula means rod... or stick.

To clarify point 5: So, in this theory, Dagon is an Amyr working for the Chandrian (all of them, not just Cinder). He hangs out with them and helps them do their dirty work. What would he get out of this?

[thistlepong]

Arliden was able to get stories about the Chandrian 10-15 years ago. Some folk have always been willing to talk about them.

... :bang:

Wow, I lost a post there trying to address the whole Lyra thing in a responsible productive manner. I don't really wanna spend the time to redo that. Apologies.

unJon, I think bradd's theory could fit together with the TT with a few tweaks. I'd discard the idea that Iax, or whomever the enemy is, is locked in Alaxel's mind. It's frelling fascinating, though. My guess would be that Lyra attempted something similar to what Bast does for Kvothe at the end of WMFc136. Except he's dead and there are tvtropes style terrible consequences, resulting in Alaxel. Since Lyra's is the only lifeforce left, she's Alaxel.

solves for: Lyra was ill, Lyra had died, Lanre had gone mad, Lanre naming, the name changed

solves for in the TT: Lanre betraying Selitos - in the cold light of inescapable awareness, she sees the plot for what it was

allows: Lanre and Lyra Lockless's city, Tinusa, to survive and their descendants to control it until fairly recently and those descendants to be entrusted with the Loeclos when Selitos is finally bound

If Lady Lackless wears a black dress and has been dreaming but not sleeping she sounds a lot like Alaxel.

[thistlepong]

Jumbles avatar was colored in by a fan.

Original by Nathan Taylor here.

Fan colored image by "Djwl29" here.

Like a drawstone even in our sleep

Standing stone by old road is the way

To lead you ever deeper into Fae.

Laystone as you lay in hill or dell

Greystone leads to Myr Tariniel.^{(The other candidate is Faeriniel, from Kvothe's story, but Arl would have remembered that.)}

[bradd]

You beat me to the Myr Tariniel reference :)

The other I had was the Telwyth Mael (where Bast is from) but I like Myr Tariniel better. Agree the Iax/Haliax theory is missing something.

ETA: Just thinking on the Haliax = Lyra angle. I like this. I keep going back to the vase though - what has the moon got to do with Lyra? There's one obvious one - Lyra is the moon and it's just been her and Iax fighting each other all along. But I think that is probably stretching the story a bit. I'll keep my eyes open for anything that can help towards this.

two_by_two - Sorry, missed that before. What does Dagon get out of it? Power - by betraying one side he causes them to lose, thereby ensuring he is siding with the winning team. If he sticks with the Amyr the whole time then it's 50/50 whether he gets anything out of it.

[thistlepong]

ETA: Just thinking on the Haliax = Lyra angle. I like this. I keep going back to the vase though - what has the moon got to do with Lyra? There's one obvious one - Lyra is the moon and it's just been her and Iax fighting each other all along. But I think that is probably stretching the story a bit. I'll keep my eyes open for anything that can help towards this.

Really it's all stretching the story a bit. Manet obviously had to split his mind into several parts to keep his vast intellect entertained

I worry that Iax was given up too easily. Haliax is the modern calling name Alaxel uses. Iax conveniently pops up in Skarpi's story but he doesn't name him as the enemy. Then we get Hespe's Jax, Felurian's unwilling to name the moon thief, and then Bast just hands Iax to us. Here's a great mystery you can put together from... Oh screw it. It was Iax. Shady.

The drawing Nina gives Kvothe is done from a memory of a dream. I'd say that puts it a few rungs down on the reputability scale. At the very least under eyewitness testimony and the stuff in the archives. The moons didn't scream /(Iax)/ at me. The missing new moon seemed to suggest Haliax wasn't a danger at that time when I read it. That made some sense considering the Sithe could enter the Mortal and hunt for him.

That's not to say there isn't a connection, just that I'm not sure the Mauthen pot necessarily implies a 1:1 correlation.

I still find the notion that someone could drop so deeply into Heart of Stone that the four doors could be described thus titilating. I just have trouble buying the notion that Lanre was secretly a wizard the whole time. That either Lanre or Lyra gained the abilities of the other between DT and MT seems more likely.

[gaillard]

2. Why did the Cthaeh say Kvothe would laugh out loud about his "Stick with the Amyr" line? Because after Kvothe kills Andan/Dagon, he will realise that the Cthaeh knew this would happen all along, and that he was manipulated to kill one of Selitos' enemies (a traitor to the Amyr).

I see a couple people quoting this line now, but I thought it was:

Stick by the Maer and he will lead you to their door.

Their door being the Amyr's door.

[dbcooper]

Conclusion - Kvothe breaks his promise to Denna and goes after her patron. He finds out her patron is Cinder/Ferule and they start to fight. At some point the Amyr Andan

comes along (who we know as Dagon) and joins in the fight against Kvothe. Kvothe kills Dagon/Andan.

Wait, what? Why would an Amyr join with Cinder to fight Kvothe? I missed the reference to the traitor Amyr.

[bradd]

Thanks gaillard - got the first couple right but messed up the last. Edited :)

dbcooper - it's on the previous page but there's a lot of evidence supporting the idea. Chronicler calls Kvothe a "red handed killer", the Chandrian vase shows an Amyr as well as the Seven, and it fits in with the "killed an angel" idea. A bit more evidence for Andan as the traitor Amyr - Nina specifically describes the Amyr on the vase as looking angry.

thistlepong - Some good ideas here... had another thought on Myr Tariniel being the location of the waypoints. If Kvothe's father had just spent the last year and a half learning about Lanre, wouldn't he have heard of Myr Tariniel? In terms of metre though it fits beautifully, better than anything else I could find. For Lyra = Haliax, a transfer of the mind fits the story but I don't think the physical body of Haliax is female. Kvothe specifically mentions Haliax as a "him" (plus he has heard him talk at the start of NoTW). Kvothe did mention he is a story teller and I can see him pulling a "surprise, it's a girl!" type outcome but if that were the case I think he would have taken care to remove all gender specific references to Haliax from the start. Bit of a sidetrack here and not sure if it's been asked before but what magic did the Chandrian use to disappear from the camp site? I assume its the same used by Cinder to leave the bandits camp later on (although when Kvothe witnessed it, it required them all to walk into the shadow of Haliax) but for the life of me I can't fit it into alchemy, sygaldry, sympathy, naming, written (knots) or glamour?

On Iax - yup, it seems strange that both Skarpi and Felurian won't name the enemy... but they will freely talk about Iax. Same sort of thing, I always thought it was odd that neither Skarpi nor Felurian mention Encanis. It seems like if they are talking about Tehlu then surely they should mention him as well - it seems a pretty solid piece of folklore that Encanis is the most evil demon who ever lived so I think it's unlikely they would not have heard of him (or know who he is). Admittedly, the story of Encanis is very similar to Lanre (and there's a fair bit of evidence for Encanis=Haliax) but even this would suggest something new, because it implies that Tehlu had something to do with him.

On Lanre and Lyra gaining the powers - something I've been questioning is who are the immortals? (can of worms here - are all Fae immortal? All namers/shapers?) Skarpi describes Lyra as one of the four most powerful wizards (with Aleph, Iax and Selitos). Is it a big stretch to take all of them as immortal? If so, and if Lyra is immortal, what was she doing hooking up with Lanre in the first place (who is made out to be mortal)? I think there needs to be a link here. If there's a transfer of power, it would most likely be from Lyra to Lanre. She was immortal, he wasn't. Now he is, and she's dead. Hmmm... interesting idea, I like this. What's the motive though? Love? She saw her husband die, tried to heal him a la Bast but instead gave him her immortality? Then she dies and he gets upset because he lost her and becomes Haliax? I can kind of see that working - and it probably doesn't need a transfer of consciousness either (although I wouldn't rule it out). What part does Selitos play in this then? Is it a simple case of Selitos pushing Lanre to continue with the war, but Lanre wants out because he just lost Lyra, then Selitos doesn't let him so Lanre turns against Selitos? I think there'd need to be a bit more evidence in here to tie this up (like why is Haliax still out killing anyone who talks about the Chandrian if his beef is with Selitos) but it's workable.

It wouldn't be a weekend without a crackpot theory too - I believe that the Kvothe to Kote transformation is a consequence of breaking his promise to Denna, but if you don't buy into that, what about if there was some sort of power transfer from Kvothe to Denna like above? She gets threatened by someone and the only way to save her is by giving her his powers?

[TeaSpoon]

Myr Tariniel doesn't rhyme, though.

Isn't the final syllable of Myr Tariniel is pronounced the same way as spaniel?

Hallowfell would fit, but it's in the mortal world and the poem specifically mention that the stones lead to Faerie.

[thistlepong]

TeaSpoon: The audiobook has it as 'mir ˈtär-ˈin-ˈē-ˈel, which rhymes with dell. Pat talked about spending hours on the phone with Nick Podehl getting the pronunciations right. It keeps the meter. It's pronounced the same by all speakers as well, as is the final syllable of Denna's Tirinitel.

bradd: Arliden might have heard Tirinitel as well. And he can't remember poetry for shite and derides it besides.

I don't think there's a shred of evidence for a traitor Amyr. Kvothe doesn't have any abnormal reaction to the Amyr, like he expected them to be hard and angry. Nor do I think there's much linking Dagon to Andan. If that counts as evidence then Auri is both Usnea and Ordal.

I'm not really prepared to defend Lyra=Haliax, it's just the only way your Lady Lackless theory works for me. And it explains away "she's been dreaming and not sleeping." Two of the ways I see it playing out are that Lyra sort of leaked into Lanre's corpse and her body weakened and died or that she walked Lanre around like a puppet and later glamoured her appearance. In the frame and on the vase we see the shape of a man, so that's a wash. /shrug

Maybe Alaxel doesn't need a door into Faen if no door can bar his passing?

Encanis is from a story 4000 years after the betrayal. It's easily explained as a calling name for Alaxel. The contention with Tehlu is just the most recent public example of the conflict that's been played out over millenia.

If there's any truth to Skapri's "long centuries of war," then /(Iax)/ was functionally immortal. In turn, that implies that the folk of that period were biologically immortal but able to be killed. And more of them died in three days than are alive today.

Why are the Seven killing anyone who talks about them? I bring this up once a thread, 'cause I'm sure someone somewhere will take it seriously. On our listen through the audiobook when we got to the bone tar chapters, my wife said, "Wow. You could fake a Chandrian attack." You'd need some naptha and firedamp to cover all seven, but we had a good laugh about it. Since then Selitos words have had an eerie stalker feel:

“This is my doom upon you. Your own name will be turned against you, that you shall have no peace.

This is my doom upon you and all who follow you. May it last until the world ends and the Aleu fall nameless from the sky.”

[bradd]

So spent the last couple of days going over the last 6 threads. Lot of info there, lot of circles too... apparently Elodin is Manet? :)

thistle - There's stacks of evidence for a traitor Amyr, it's just whether or not you choose to accept it :) There's the confusion over whether there are 7 or 8 Chandrian, there's the repeated use of "seven plus one", Lanre's seven Chandrian, the disbanding of the "Amyr" (implying they were doing wrong) and of course the Chandrian vase. I could maybe buy one of these being wrong, but all of them? Likewise on the drawing of the Chandrian vase - I can't reconcile the idea that it could be a red herring or false, otherwise what purpose does it play (apart from trying to confuse the reader)? A girl sees the vase that a farm load of people were killed for, has the same dream three nights in a row depicting three people who are related in some way, draws from memory well enough for Kvothe to identify both Cinder and Haliax without any prompting but just happens to imagine or mis-draw the Amyr? I don't buy it. She even gets little details right - the copper shield, the shadow candle, Cinder freezing the water below him... it just works too well. I'd even buy that the "mirror" under Haliax is in some way linked to the obsidian stone - there's references that a name can be contained within glass and this would explain how Selitos could bind Haliax permanently - but either way, I don't see how this evidence can just be discounted. Is there a line in the book that says "There was a traitor Amyr"? Nope - but I think the evidence pointing to it is at least as strong as for some other theories.

On the topic of trusting witnesses - I think people have gone way overboard with this one. The best thing PR could do to keep interest going in the books is state that someone, somewhere is lying. You could pick pretty much any point in the book, call it a lie and build a case for something true. So Kvothe's parents didn't really die and Manet is his dad. Oh wait, PR doesn't like cliches... Kvothe also forget to tell us Manet was a chick and he/she is Kvothes mum. I think more likely is the the "lies" are just poetic licence... "I slept with 500 chicks"... yeah actually it was 28, but the idea is still valid, you get around. We've seen this repeatedly with the stories about Kvothes life. So Sim rocks up while Kvothe is battling whoever and the other person kills Sim. Kvothe gets labelled a poetkiller because no one can prove otherwise. A lie, but a lie that makes sense. Kvothe's betrayal is not done by a person but an ideal - after talking to Skarpi in Tarbean, Kvothe believes that the Amyr are the best thing since sliced bread, and that he must find them. He finds out that not all of them are as rosy as they make out - ergo betrayal. In Skarpi1, Lanre takes Selitos up to the hills above MT and "freezes" him, which is where he gains the extra sight. So this actually describes Lanre imprisoning Selitos as the Cthaeh in the tree (and ironically argues for MT being in Fae) but the point of the story isn't changed - they fought, Selitos was imprisoned, Lanre was cast in shadow, etc. These are just examples and may be (heck, they probably are) completely wrong. But in the context of "lies" within the story they make sense.

I agree though that the link between Dagon and Andan is weak - it's by no means certainty. Story wise it makes sense though, more than Auri being Chandrian would. Doesn't the Cthaeh say that the Maer has already found the Amyr but doesn't know it?

On Lyra/Lady Lackless - Bit of a sidetrack here but I re-read the Skarpi tales the other night and it stuck out to me that he specifically describes Lanre as wearing a black suit of armour made from the scales of the beast he slew. Sounds a bit like a shaed? Skarpi also specifically mentions Lyra as "terrible". Talking out loud here and I have no real evidence to back it up, but the aspect of Lyra that makes her terrible is her magic/immortality and is in some way linked to a black "dress". When Lanre dies, she transfers her power to him, becoming mortal. He takes on the immortality/anger/black "dress" (which could be explained away by something as simple as a shadow surrounding him/her) and then she dies at the end of her mortal life, after which he goes to MT. Hmmm. I really like the idea that Lanre got his powers from Lyra and that caused her to become mortal but the shadow thing is probably a stretch...

On Haliax's magic - kinda makes sense, but wouldn't he need to be near a Waystone to travel to Fae? I looked through the book for any reference to a Waystone near their campsite but they stopped because a tree was across the road. Kvothe does sleep on a Waystone a few days afterwards though. Also I'm not convinced that it's Haliax only magic - Cinder seems to disappear/teleport somewhere as well from the bandit camp. Only reason I bring it up is that if we've seen 5 of the 6 types of magic, this doesn't fit into any that have been described.

I think you're right about Encanis - that's definitely a believable answer. I like the idea that the Amyr are like "gods" - not in terms of their powers but in terms of followers. So following Skarpi2, each Amyr heads out and gathers their own group of loyal followers (ie "religon"). The followers of Tehlu (which are the "human Amyr") bunk down in Atur and go out and mete justice. The stories of what happens there (with the Tehlu/Encanis=Haliax fight being one) turn into the stories of the Tehlin religion. At a stretch and applying the "turned Amyr" idea, it could also explain why some people thought the Amyr were bad - because some of them were.

On immortality - I haven't seen it mentioned here but Trapis throws out a line that only one person in the world is immortal (It's stated by Tehlu in his story). Who is this? Aleph? Tehlu? Manet? :) I like the idea that strong magic gives long life, but not immortality. "Long centuries of war" can be described without immortality - the leaders of each side were strong magic users and hence "long lived". The fighters could have changed from year to year as a consequence of births and deaths.

So Haliax and/or the Chandrian change it out over time? Interesting - it would go against the Cthaeh not being able to lie (Haliax hasn't slept in 5000 years) and against the Chandrian vase (how would something that old have a recognisable picture of Cinder if he kept changing?) but I don't think it's immediately dismissible.

On Cinder as Denna's patron - it fits so well but I'm struggling for motive. Denna -> Cinder is easy - she's had some sort of tragedy in the past (was raped, parents killed, loved a man and got burnt or whatever - guarantee it has something to do with the name Denna says when she's whacked out on Denner resin) and doesn't want to feel helpless again. Some guy shows up who knows all sorts of cool magic that can help her get her vengeance and feel safe. She doesn't even have to make the connection on who he is (hell, he could have told her he was Lanre for all she knows) just that he knows magic and can teach her. She endures getting whacked cause that's the price of information. Cinder -> Denna is harder. I don't buy the Chandrian keeping tabs on Kvothe. Makes no sense - they could just whack him in the middle of the night. I don't really buy sex on the side either - Cinder is a Chandrian, he could kidnap whoever he wants for that sort of thing. The only thing I can think is that she has something they want - the best two candidates I can come up with are blood and information. If Denna turns out to be someone important who has runaway (and I'd hate it if she was - I hope she is normal) then this could be their inroad. I don't think the Chandrian are any strangers to meddling in politics (Cinder stealing the tax money is the small proof of this) so kinda makes sense they'd want to control who is King/Queen and have eyes and ears around the place. Not sure I buy this though cause like I said, I want Denna to be normal :) Second idea is that she has information that they want. I had the idea a while back that Denna had been to Fae. It was something to do with the look she gave Kvothe being similar to the look he gave women after he had been with Felurian. It's a stretch, but maybe something happened in Fae that they want to keep tabs on? Maybe she got touched by the Cthaeh? I dunno - it's a pretty weak idea (not everyone can be an Amyr/Chandrian and visit Fae, and I think there's a good argument for Elodin going nuts=him visiting Fae) but I can't think of much else?

ETA: Might be a simpler one here. Cinder is using Denna to spread mis-information about the Chandrian. At a stretch, maybe he's making a play for the top spot? Hmmm... food for thought

[bradd]

Sorry for the double post, but something just clicked. I think I understand where you're coming from now thistle - sorry for being daft about it and I guess if I've missed the mark here sorry for being daft now :)

PR hates the cliche - someone mentioned before that he's challenging the typical fantasy stereotypes. So everything up to the departure of Abenthy is true. But a few days after Abenthy leaves, Kvothe does something that's completely and utterly stupid with sympathy and kills his whole troupe accidentally. He goes a bit nuts and hides out in the woods/Tarbean for a few years then approaches the University. There he comes up with the idea that the Chandrian killed his family. Whether he actually thinks it happened or not is a moot point. So he does little things here and there to try and convince people they are real - steals some bone tar and burns down Trebon, goes nuts in the woods near the Eld and fakes his story about Felurian, etc etc. The main parts of the story are real but Kvothe has invented everything about the Chandrian/Fae to justify screwing up. Skarpi and the Chronicler get wind of it and try and track him down to figure out the real story.

I really hope it doesn't end like this...

[dbcooper]

I can't imagine Rothfuss would do anything like that with this story. It'd be a huge "fuck you" to the reader and it would undermine all of the interesting backstory and mystery he has built. And not only that, a "jk Kvothe's crazy - got you!" ending would be a cliche of enormous proportions, one that's far worse than typical fantasy cliches. We're more likely to see GRRM write a happy ending than seeing any of this come to pass.

[Faf Ner]

was thinking about the nameless ones and Kvothe

1 we know all things got a name

2 they are called nameless so it can be a person that is so comlex that it cant be named or got no name

3 they are behind those stone doors

4 Kvothe got a ring with no name

5 he wants to get inside those doors from the start

can Kvothe get in book 3 behind one of those doors so he turns into a nameless?

we see that the fae magic works on things that are not normal stuff so can it be that behind those doors is a state of mind locked up by the fae and that someone can enter that they will go nameless?

maybe even that what a nameless shaped only those who is nameless can see its name

we know that for Sympathy he use a special mental state

for naming we got the sleeping mind that need to get active(maybe the same he use by the sword tree)

for nameless a third state of mind that is locked away

if you look at the knot language the whole mine sock is also a part of mine let say a namer/shaper is the same someone shape a rock and your name is part of it

let say that looking in the future/rising from the dead/ect is something that the sleeping mind cant name it so it is nameless also all the magic what he does cant be seen by a namer/sleeper mind

[unJon]

My guess is that Kvothe's ring that can't be named is a copper ring.

[Tears of Lys]

My guess is that Kvothe's ring that can't be named is a copper ring.

I agree. Makes sense since they use copper as a means of locking things up, i.e., Elodin, four-plate door.

But why would Kvothe have a copper ring, then?

[bradd]

I always found it odd that Elodin refused to touch the door - is this just a function of him being a little insane or is there something else here? :)

Have you thought about the nameless ring being made of something that no one else has ever been able to name, but Kvothe does? Copper probably falls under this, but the other one I was thinking is music. Does music have a name? The scene just after Kvothe dies where he plays what he sees (there's also an example where he "played colours to a blind man"... is he naming with music or naming music?

unJon - In my re-read I've been keeping my eye open for Manet=Elodin evidence :bowdown: When Kvothe first gets pulled before the horns he gets summoned by one of the other students at dinner. Manet is eating with him there, and he walks straight to the Master's where Elodin is waiting. It doesn't look good, but then I found this quote (NoTW Chap43 - The Flickering Way) -

He hesitated, looking at Manet. "Lord, how do I even start?"

More than it seems? :)