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The Wise Man's Fear VII (Spoilers and speculation)

Kingkiller Wise Fear Wise Mans Fear Kvothe

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#141 unJon

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 07:00 AM

unJon - In my re-read I've been keeping my eye open for Manet=Elodin evidence /bowdown.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':bowdown:' /> When Kvothe first gets pulled before the horns he gets summoned by one of the other students at dinner. Manet is eating with him there, and he walks straight to the Master's where Elodin is waiting. It doesn't look good, but then I found this quote (NoTW Chap43 - The Flickering Way) -

He hesitated, looking at Manet. "Lord, how do I even start?"

More than it seems? /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

Devastating. :cry: /lol.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' />

Edited by unJon, 19 March 2012 - 07:01 AM.


#142 thistlepong

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 07:53 AM

Devastating. :cry: /lol.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' />


That's Sim, too. He's a duke's son, obliged to pay respects only to princes and kings. /drunk.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':drunk:' />

#143 tze

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 01:31 PM

Another thing I've been thinking lately - just a hunch - but Bredon strikes me as a likely candidate for an Amyr. He obviously wanted to get closer to the Maer.


I've always liked the theory that Master Bredon = Aculeus Lackless, daddy to Meluan and Netalia and grandfather to Kvothe. We've very explicitly never been given the Lackless title---Meluan is called "Lady", but she's apparently not the head of her family, and when Sim is giving the line of succession for the throne of Vintas, he leaves Aculeus Lackless's title off the list. We're told that the Lackless family once had the same powers that Maershon Alveron now has. I think the idea that the Lackless title is something like "Amaer" isn't out of the realm of possibility.

Actually, if we posit that Master Bredon is in fact Kvothe's maternal grandfather Aculeus Lackless, I'm wondering if perhaps the Maer and "Bredon" know exactly who Kvothe is (the son of Netalia Lackless), have known this all along, and think Kvothe knows about this and in fact is being driven by this. Perception has been a pretty major theme thus far. Everything that's happened has been filtered through Kvothe's understandings. Kvothe's actions make perfect sense to us as readers because we know all about his driving force---murdering the shit out of some fairy-tale monsters. But nobody in-story knows about that motivation (and wouldn't believe it if Kvothe told them). So how do they interpret Kvothe's actions? I think if readers examine the actions of Bredon, the Maer, and even Meluan (maybe she thinks the Ruh were responsible for Netalia's death, and is pissed at Kvothe for identifying with the group she perceives as his mother's murderers) in the context of them actually knowing about Kvothe being Netalia's son, then their actions and responses to Kvothe's actions make a lot more sense.

If we examine their actions from this perspective, I think a lot of things fall into place. The "happy coincidence" that the Maer, the richest man in his country, who employs a large number of personal musicians, just happened to have sent a request for a musician to a completely different country, to the closest thing Kvothe had to a noble patron, after a very well-publicized trial meant Kvothe would be free to head to the Maer's court, so that Kvothe could help the Maer woo the woman who's almost undoubtedly Kvothe's maternal aunt. I mean, that's a pretty heavy coincidence, and maybe the whole point is that it never was a coincidence. The whole "to woo a woman, you have to know her family" spiel the Maer gave Kvothe doesn't really make a lot of sense if you think about it as a romantic strategy, but makes a lot of sense if the Maer's real intention was to bring up the Netalia Lackless connection to Kvothe without just flat-out saying it.

That whole weird "what secret thing drives you" discussion between Kvothe and the Maer: if the Maer knows Kvothe is Netalia's kid, that whole conversation would have taken on a load of meanings in the Maer's head (he might have been expecting Kvothe to talk about his mother being a noble, and the Maer might even have read Kvothe bringing up the "Amyr" as being code for Kvothe's driving force being the Lackless family), something that of course went completely over Kvothe's head. If the Maer (and quite possibly "Bredon") know Kvothe's mother was a Lackless, the most logical assumption for them would be that Kvothe knows this and went to the University to try and better himself so his maternal family will want him (since clearly Kvothe could have just made a career with the Edema Ruh, given his heritage and musical skills). These are people who view the nobility as the most desired thing in the world; they'd assume Kvothe wanted acceptance into the nobility. That it's all part of his lifelong scheme to murder a group of fairy-tale monsters is not, I think, ever viewed as a potential motivation for him. They would never just assume that, despite his genius-level intelligence, Kvothe hasn't figured out his Lackless connection and doesn't actually even care about his mother's noble relatives.

It explains "Master Bredon's" whole charade---he won't tell Kvothe his real name, he doesn't wear his family colors, he's hanging around the Maer's court for no readily discernable purpose, etc. He knows Kvothe doesn't know much about Vintish culture---why bother hiding these things about himself, unless he believed Kvothe had some reason to recognize the Lackless name/colors/etc.? That Netalia Lackless never told her son anything about her family, and that said son never bothered trying to discover anything about his noble relations, is not the sort of thing a nobleman would think to consider. And "Bredon" never mentions why he's at the Maer's court in the first place; the Maer was always intending on wooing Meluan, so it makes sense that he'd be making arrangements with her father. And if Bredon = Kvothe's grandfather, then it makes sense that he's the one who thought up the whole scheme that brought Kvothe to the Maer's court in the first place.

It also explains what was going on with the wedding. I don't think the Maer actually intended Kvothe to catch any bandits. I think Kvothe was (as he originally thought) intended to wander around the woods for a month, head back to the Maer's court in time for the wedding (Kvothe notes that the amount of money the Maer gave him would only last a month, and when he set out, the wedding date was two months away). What was going to happen at the wedding? The Maer had intentionally gotten all of the nobles in his court gossiping about Kvothe and his identity. (Something which also cuts against the idea that the Maer's main intention was getting Kvothe's help in wooing Meluan---if he didn't want attention brought to what he and Kvothe were doing, why make Kvothe such an object of attention?) If Bredon = Aculeus Lackless, then his true identity would have been made clear at the wedding, as he was the father of the bride. Perhaps he thought such a reveal would mean something to Kvothe? And perhaps he and the Maer had cooked up some scheme---announcing Kvothe as a distant cousin, perhaps, or having him legitimized as Netalia's son and Aculeus's heir (given that Meluan had just made a fantastic marriage and no longer needed the Lackless lands or title). And then Kvothe didn't show up to the wedding.

I don't think the Maer, at least, believed Kvothe's story about hanging out with the Adem. He's never seen Kvothe fight, and he'd have no way of recognizing an Adem sword. He might easily think that Kvothe intentionally missed the wedding, messing up whatever plans the Maer and "Bredon" had made, as part of a power game. From his POV, I think Uncle Alveron thinks he and Kvothe are engaged in a dominance game, with Kvothe wanting full noble status and all its accoutremants and the Maer pushing back, with the Maer's actions having been deftly calculated to smack Kvothe down without fully cutting their ties. And when the Maer was kicking Kvothe out of his court, Kvothe is the one that assumed he was just getting thrown out on his rear. For all we know, the whole plan was to have Master Bredon/Grandpa Aculeus basically "take charge" of Kvothe, and Kvothe never realized this because he took off through the window before these plans came to fruition.

Basically, imagine that the Maer and "Bredon" are engaged in an intricate game of chess with Kvothe. Except neither of them realize that Kvothe has no idea they're "supposed" to be playing chess, and Kvothe is actually playing Twister, so the Maer, Bredon, and even Meluan simply don't understand how or why Kvothe keeps kicking them in the face.

#144 unJon

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 09:48 PM

Wow, you just blew my mind. I am continually amazed by how these books allow for such deep speculations. So many puzzle pieces. Great theory, and I am inclined to believe the main point, that Bredon is Kvothe's grandfather. Filling him into that slot also relieves the tension of what is his purpose unless he's Master Ash, and I've been converted to the Cinder equals Master Ash caamp by the well reasoned arguments in these threads (specifically the Kvothe name guessing scene in Trebon and the cold freezing the Fishery on the day Denna met her patron).

#145 Tears of Lys

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 10:17 PM

@Tze... tantalizing theory. It seems to hold together pretty well.

I'm now wondering if the present-day Amyr are not the movers and shakers of days past, but simply human "game pieces" in place for when/if they are needed - people who have the Amyr of old in their family histories and maybe even an ancient artifact in their safekeeping.
(I'm trying to work a "beautiful game" into this, you see!)


BUT if Meluan is in on Kvothe's family history, how would you explain her going off the deep end when she finds out he's a filthy Ruh?

#146 jumbles

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 12:46 AM

BUT if Meluan is in on Kvothe's family history, how would you explain her going off the deep end when she finds out he's a filthy Ruh?


Going along with this theory, I would guess that Meluan assumes Kvothe also hates the Ruh for stealing his mother away and gets mad when she finds that Kvothe considers himself one of them.
I don't think she knows who Kvothe is though.
A problem I noticed with this theory: Kvothe received a rumor about Bredon taking part in pagan rituals. If Bredon's real name is Aculeus, wouldn't the rumor have named him as Aculeus rather than Bredon?

Edit: Also, Bredon sent his silver ring to Kvothe. If it said Aculeus, I would think Kvothe would tell us.

Edited by jumbles, 20 March 2012 - 01:07 AM.


#147 bradd

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 01:05 AM

tze - Nice, I never considered Bredon=Aculeus and it seems to fit the story well.... where did they learn about Kvothe from though? His early story seems to suggest that they never made contact with his mothers' family when he was young, and then after their death the only person who really knows his parents is Loren. How would the Lackless family find out that not only is Kvothe alive, but is good friends with Threpe (who is in turn talking to the Maer)? Couple of random points on this one too - Kvothe uses a phrase like "For all I could know, they were my mothers family" or something like that near the start of NoTW... to me the past tense of "could" implies that he knows what's going on know (or else it would be "For all I can know, ..."). Second one, I re-read the Cthaeh conversion the other day and noticed he mentions Kvothe's mother "has always been a trouper". Sorry can't get exact quotes (left my Kindle at work /bang.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':bang:' /> ) but thought it was interesting if he always has to tell the truth (unless it's not literal). Oh and doesn't Aculeus get mentioned in the line of succession early in NoTW (it's around about the quote above that absolutely definitively proves Manet is at least a god /cool4.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':cool4:' /> )?

A couple of older ones too - what's everyone's take on Teccam? What's his history? And is he important to the story?

Second one is on copper. The impression I get is that at a certain point in learning to become a Namer, the Names of everything suddenly jump out at you like voices. The people stuck in the Rookery are the ones who can't switch the voices off, and hear the Names of everything around them constantly. Maybe copper prevents the Name of anything around it being heard. I think it's obviously got something to do with protection from Namers but if the only thing special about it is that it can't be Named, how does that protect anything? Why can't whoever is behind the door in the Stacks just name the stone like Elodin does in the Rookery?

ETA: One more, sorry I forgot - how do you bind someone and what does it mean? I get how a sympathetic binding works, but how did Haliax bind Selitos, and Selitos bind Haliax back, and Iax bind the moon? And why would Haliax need to name stone and the wind to bind Selitos?

Edited by bradd, 20 March 2012 - 01:08 AM.


#148 Ser Scot A Ellison

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 06:18 AM

bradd,

Early in Kvothe's telling of his life story he mentions that he and his mother visited her family, once. That would be enough for his Grandfather to learn Kvothe's name.

#149 thistlepong

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 07:16 AM

...
A problem I noticed with this theory: Kvothe received a rumor about Bredon taking part in pagan rituals. If Bredon's real name is Aculeus, wouldn't the rumor have named him as Aculeus rather than Bredon?

Edit: Also, Bredon sent his silver ring to Kvothe. If it said Aculeus, I would think Kvothe would tell us.


There are some things we might infer without tze's beautifully spun tale. Indeed, I think they've been brought up before.
  • "You may call me Bredon," can be contrasted with Kvothe's insistence on Devan's name: "I didn't ask what I could call you." There's a persistent theme of calling names versus true® names; or even between one calling name and another. I'd be surprised if Bredon isn't a fake name regardless of what his function in the narrative is.
  • If it's a fake name, the runners and guards of Alveron's court are in on it. Not much of a stretch, really. His significance is implied simply by his access.
Forging some Bredon rings isn't too extravagant. As for the rumors, here's the quote:

Even Bredon made an appearance. He was said to conduct pagan rituals in the secluded woods outside his northern estates. They were described with such extravagant and meticulous detail that I wondered if they weren’t copied directly from the pages of some old Aturan romance.


His "northern estates" actually lend minor support to what tze's saying. However, the veracity of the document is entirely questionable; with a lampshade on it.

tze: I love it. Not a lot of hard evidence but so much sense. Perhaps a detail here or there might not hold up, but I'm in. Thanks.

#150 thistlepong

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 07:22 AM

ETA: One more, sorry I forgot - how do you bind someone and what does it mean? I get how a sympathetic binding works, but how did Haliax bind Selitos, and Selitos bind Haliax back, and Iax bind the moon? And why would Haliax need to name stone and the wind to bind Selitos?


What Devi does to Kvothe in their sympathy battle is remarkable similar to what Haliax does to Selitos: immobilization and silencing. You wouldn't need to name stone and air, but it could work all the same. We're not exactly given the parameters for "real magic." The theft of the moon was a macroscale alteration of reality, not a binding. We see it as one cause of Hespe's "The Boy Who Loved the Moon." Selitos did something similar on a smaller scale to the Seven. The point of naming is that it doesn't follow the rules.

#151 stumpzapper

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 04:40 PM

A problem I noticed with this theory: Kvothe received a rumor about Bredon taking part in pagan rituals. If Bredon's real name is Aculeus, wouldn't the rumor have named him as Aculeus rather than Bredon? Edit: Also, Bredon sent his silver ring to Kvothe. If it said Aculeus, I would think Kvothe would tell us.


Bredon may not be a name, but a title. In old English aristocracy men are often referred to by the land that they govern, so that the Earl of Rochester is just called "Rochester". Same thing for areas like Burgundy, etc. (makes Shakespeare really confusing sometimes when they're jumping back and forth between given name and official title). The reason I mention it is that earlier in WMF Kvothe and company drink Bredon beer (if I recall correctly Wil or Sim comment that you don't drink it so much as chew it because it's so thick). It may be then that Bredon is a Vintage region, not the name of the individual we think of as "Bredon."

#152 dbcooper

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 06:39 PM

Second one, I re-read the Cthaeh conversion the other day and noticed he mentions Kvothe's mother "has always been a trouper". Sorry can't get exact quotes (left my Kindle at work /bang.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':bang:' /> ) but thought it was interesting if he always has to tell the truth (unless it's not literal)


The exact quote is "She held up well though. Laurian was always a trouper, if you'll pardon the expression." The conversation with the Cthaeh strikes me as one of the more important parts of the book. Obviously a talking prophetic tree will lead to a ton of foreshadowing and hint dropping, but I can imagine Rothfuss spent a decent amount of time on those chapters to get the words the Cthaeh used precisely the way he wanted. The pieces seem to fit so that Laurian = Runaway Lackless girl, but the "always a trouper" part bugs me. Unless it's just a red herring.

Tze you make some interesting inferences but I have trouble imagining things wrapping up quite that nicely. I have nothing to refute that Bredon = Kvothe's Grandfather but I doubt the Maer knows Kvothe's parentage. I don't have any specific evidence, but from what I can recall of Kvothe and the Maer's conversations, none of it seemed to have any hidden/deeper meaning to it. They interacted completely on the basis of nobleman/hireling and Rothfuss's style tends towards hinting and foreshadowing or at least using generic language to allow multiple interpretations. When the Maer's new wife throws a fit and has Kvothe banished that would of been a great time for the Maer to say "Uh actually he's your nephew so lets keep him around". Certainly Kvothe proved he's a handy guy to have around so we could assume that the Maer would want to keep him around. I just can't buy that Kvothe = Lackless is this big secret everyone knows but him.

#153 Nisheeth

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 10:10 PM

The pieces seem to fit so that Laurian = Runaway Lackless girl, but the "always a trouper" part bugs me. Unless it's just a red herring.


Someone else had suggested before (either here, or on Tor, but I have forgotten who, or where), that when Cthaeh said Laurian he meant since she had taken that name, Netalia was never a trouper, Laurian was, even though they are both the same person.

#154 tze

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 10:24 PM

On Bredon as Kvothe's grandfather: Kvothe tells Sim and Wil that "In the small kingdoms women drink [Bredon beer] when they're pregnant." Associating Bredon beer with pregnant women points toward an association with mothers, which can be read as a hint that "Bredon" is associated with Kvothe's mother. More importantly, Kvothe describes Master Bredon himself as "Not elderly by any means, but what I consider grandfather old."

BUT if Meluan is in on Kvothe's family history, how would you explain her going off the deep end when she finds out he's a filthy Ruh?


She goes off the deep end when she discovers that he considers himself Edema Ruh. If we look at Meluan's attitude toward the Ruh, her absolute loathing of them is rather striking. What does she think ultimately happened to her sister? Does she think Netalia is blissfully living a life on the road? I'm wondering if Meluan knows Netalia is dead, and thinks the Edema Ruh were responsible, either directly or indirectly, for her death. (Everyone knew Netalia Lackless ran off with a Ruh, and Arlidon's troupe had a supposedly wealthy and powerful patron---it's possible that said patron learned his players had been brutally murdered, and word eventually reached Netalia's family, especially if her father was surruptitiously keeping tabs on that troupe.) If she blamed the Ruh for her sister's death, it would explain both Meluan's complete and utter loathing of them, as well as why she freaked out on Kvothe the way she did: the idea of her nephew voluntarily associating himself with the people she blames for his mother's death would not exactly endear him to her.

A problem I noticed with this theory: Kvothe received a rumor about Bredon taking part in pagan rituals. If Bredon's real name is Aculeus, wouldn't the rumor have named him as Aculeus rather than Bredon?


I think it depends. First, is "Bredon" the name of (at least one of) the Lackless holdings, as stumpzapper points out? Second: who exactly sent Kvothe that story? "Bredon" knows that various nobles have begun sending Kvothe scandalous stories. He'd know that it would look rather odd if nobody had any interesting stories to tell about "Bredon", especially given that he'd already told Kvothe he'd once been a power player among the nobility. And Kvothe even notes that the documents about "Bredon" "were described with such extravagant and meticulous detail that I wondered if they weren’t copied directly from the pages of some old Aturan romance." I think it's extremely likely that "Bredon" himself wrote those stories and sent them to Kvothe, not just to maintain his disguise, but also to have a bit of a lark. These "rumors" are presented in such a way that I think whoever wrote them didn't intend them to be taken seriously---maybe they actually were coped from the pages of some old Aturan romance.

Tze you make some interesting inferences but I have trouble imagining things wrapping up quite that nicely. I have nothing to refute that Bredon = Kvothe's Grandfather but I doubt the Maer knows Kvothe's parentage. I don't have any specific evidence, but from what I can recall of Kvothe and the Maer's conversations, none of it seemed to have any hidden/deeper meaning to it. They interacted completely on the basis of nobleman/hireling and Rothfuss's style tends towards hinting and foreshadowing or at least using generic language to allow multiple interpretations.


First (and this is what inspired this theory in the first place): this whole scenario---that the Maer, the richest man in Vint, just happens to summon the long-lost nephew of the woman he wants to marry, to help him woo said woman, under these circumstances (said nephew was living in another country, was only available in the first place because of a very public trial, the request came to the closest thing Kvothe had to a patron)----I mean, there are coincidences, and then there's that. The chances of this whole thing being a massive coincidence strikes me as astronomical. And Kvothe just "happens" to meet a guy at the Maer's court who's 1) the definition of a "chessmaster" and 2) quite possibly Kvothe's grandfather? Pieces start falling into place (for me, at least).

The Maer tells Kvothe to learn about the Lackless family, but never mentions Aculeus Lackless, which seems odd. If it weren't for Simm's little tidbit, we'd never even have heard of Aculeus. It seems extremely strange to me that the Maer wouldn't even mention the guy who's (presumably) going to be his father-in-law: does he approve of the potential match? Could Aculeus provide some assistance to this whole pursuit? (if he had recently died, that would also have come up, cause what woman wants to get married soon after a close relative's death?) That he isn't even mentioned by the Maer, or by anyone else, strikes me as thought-provoking, given that the Maer explicitly wanted Kvothe to learn about Meluan's family. But if Bredon = Aculeus Lackless, the fact that nobody mentions him makes a lot more sense. But if Bredon = Aculeus Lackless, why wouldn't the Maer just tell Kvothe this? If the Maer knows Kvothe's Lackless connection, this makes sense. (If he's in the dark, it doesn't really make sense.)

As to the discussions between the Maer and Kvothe, I think there are a number of places where there are hints that the Maer might know about Kvothe's Lackless connection:

“Caudicus can lay the groundwork for you. He knows a great deal about the history of the families. Family is the foundation upon which a man stands. You’ll need to know where she comes from if you’re to court her.”


This seems like an odd request. Yes, the nobility are very full of themselves, but the idea of investigating a woman's family history before courting her strikes me as rather strange.

“I have always thought,” Alveron said at last, introducing the topic of our discussion, “that everyone has a question that rests in the center of who they are.” “How do you mean, your grace?”“I believe everyone has some question that drives them. A question that keeps them awake nights. A question they worry like a dog with an old bone. If you understand a man’s question, it brings you closer to understanding the man himself.” He looked sideways at me, half-smiling. “Or so I have always believed.”


What "question" did the Maer think drives Kvothe? The Maer thinks that "Family is the foundation upon which a man stands." So wouldn't it make sense for him to assume that the question that drives Kvothe has something to do with his family?

Not to mention, the Maer lets Kvothe get away with an enormous amount of things (accusing the Maer's faithful doctor Caudicus of poisoning him, for example) that I don't think he'd have ordinarily let complete strangers get away with. Their interactions don't strike me as a typical employer/employee relationship---the Maer strikes me as having some serious ulterior motives in everything he asks Kvothe to do.

When the Maer's new wife throws a fit and has Kvothe banished that would of been a great time for the Maer to say "Uh actually he's your nephew so lets keep him around". Certainly Kvothe proved he's a handy guy to have around so we could assume that the Maer would want to keep him around. I just can't buy that Kvothe = Lackless is this big secret everyone knows but him.


I think Meluan knew that Kvothe was her nephew when she had her fit (but not, for example, during their first meeting)---that was the whole point. Look at that scene as the Maer bringing Meluan together with her long-lost sister's long-lost son . . . only to discover that said son considers himself a member of the group that Meluan probably blames for her sister's death. The Maer didn't cut ties with Kvothe---by paying his tuition, he maintains a level of control over Kvothe.

And remember when Kvothe goes all medieval on the false Ruh? One of the things he yells at them is this: "“You thought you could fool me?” I said, feeling my anger coiling inside me again like a spring. “This is my family! How could I not know?" I think the juxtaposition of him easily sussing out false Ruh, but being completely oblivious to his biological family, would be perfectly in keeping with what we've seen of Kvothe's character. As the Maer tells him: "“For someone who knows so much, you’re curiously blind in places.” I can very easily see this as a secret that everyone knows but him, because he often operates on such a different wavelength from everyone else that he sees what they cannot but sometimes misses what seems blindingly obvious to others.

#155 bradd

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 02:09 AM

stumpzapper - Mate I think you've nailed it here... other option is that Bredon is an alcoholic but I don't remember Tak involving bouncing coins into a glass. Might explain how Felurian knew about it though... /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />

OK I'm sold on Bredon=Aculeus... I'm not 100% convinced that the Maer/Bredon knew Kvothe but I wouldn't discount it either. Funnily enough it gives Kvothe another King to kill as well... if the current royal family dies, maybe Bredon is King. If Kvothe kills him, that puts the Maer on the throne.... hmmm.... oh and on Princess Ariel, forgot to mention it before, has anyone proposed the idea that the reason she hasn't been mentioned yet because she hasn't been born yet? She could be the child of the Maer and Meluan?

thistlepong - If the binding is like what Devi did to Kvothe (nice catch btw) does that mean it involves sympathy? Which means the University predates the Creation War (because that's where sympathy was invented)? Sorry just trying to get something straight in my head - there's a couple of things that I can't get to add up... (probably minor but I like things neat /tongue.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />)

ETA: tze - Hats off to you too sir /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

Edited by bradd, 21 March 2012 - 04:43 AM.


#156 Calibandar

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 06:44 AM

So, what about the paternal side of Kvothe's parentage? How certain are we that his father is really his father, and who might his paternal grandfather have been?

Edited by Calibandar, 21 March 2012 - 06:44 AM.


#157 thistlepong

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 08:22 AM

What I find interesting about tze's theory is that it's flexible. Though tze might not agree, the only rigid bit is that Aculeus=Bredon. That's something I've liked for a long time, but couldn't really put together; especially thinking Bredon was Master Ash and not exactly liking the Kvothe Lackless idea. But laid out like this, Kvothe could conceivably be just some bloodless noob that everyone thinks is a lost relative. Either Meluan or Alveron could not know for some period of time. Or everyone could be in on it.

But reading through the first span in Severen again, tze's version is pretty attractive. Kvothe shows up surprisingly early, yet four days later Bredon's at his door against custom without escort blowing into his rooms with a tak table and assistants. He's got a bag of rings he knows Kvothe doesn't have or know how to use, a pile of clever advice, and some arch commentary. And whoever he is, he's willing to allow Kvothe equal status in full view of the rest of the court.

Considered through tze's lens, that last is an incredible power play and a beautiful game. Anyone sending Kvothe a silver ring acknowledges they know what's going on, but they also display a bold willingness to risk unmasking him. You know, provided Kvothe were savvy enough to work it out.

What's really surprising is that it's kind of convincing me Kvothe might have Lackless blood. I'm resistant to the penniless prince idea. I suppose that's mostly because PR talks so frequently about messing with tropes and how the KKC is a satire on as well as an epic fantasy. He even has Denna say, “There’s no young prince out there, dressed in rags and waiting to save you."

And it sidles up nicely to Ser Scot's long con. Denna could have been checking Kvothe out: “Well it’s my job to notice things about you.” Her association with Ash is already estabished and Kvothe's is as in as he's gonna be with Threpe. I suppose I'd be surprised if it was that tight. On the other hand I suppose I'd also be surprised if everything was vaguely synchronous and coincidental.

Kvothe's ridiculously wealthy in the frame. He's legendary. He's wanted. None of that's an accident.

thistlepong - If the binding is like what Devi did to Kvothe (nice catch btw) does that mean it involves sympathy? Which means the University predates the Creation War (because that's where sympathy was invented)? Sorry just trying to get something straight in my head - there's a couple of things that I can't get to add up... (probably minor but I like things neat /tongue.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />)


No. It doesn't necessarily mean it involves sympathy. Kvothe binds Felurian with the name of the wind. Chronicler attempts to bind Bast with the name of iron, less successfully. Again, we're not given the limits of what naming can accomplish or how it works. That'd be the most difficult thing to model in the rpg. Maybe it works exactly like sympathy with no conservation of energy or similarity caveats.

#158 Tears of Lys

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 10:39 AM

I've never been a fan of the Bredon=Ash theory, which is a byproduct of the Denna's Patron=Ash theory. Bredon is the perfect red herring - he can be fit into any number of roles. I'd have to say that the Bredon=Kvothe's grandfather theory is the most palatable one so far, IMHO. It's obvious he's a Major Player in something.


So, what about the paternal side of Kvothe's parentage? How certain are we that his father is really his father, and who might his paternal grandfather have been?


There have been a few clues laid about the question of Kvothe's parentage. His father jokes with his mother about it when he makes the comment to the effect of "Did you lay with a passing God?" (or something) when Abenthy talks with them about what a genius Kvothe is.

He's got true-red hair and his parents are both brunettes (not definitive, but something to consider.)

And there is the incident outside Lorren's office at the Archives when the Cealdish giller who works in acquisitions and travels to find books starts speaking to him in Yllish in the mistaken belief Kvothe is from Yll. This little incident is quite unnecessary to the story and could be considered to be just adding some color, but there's something about it that makes me think it's important in some way.

There's probably others as well, but those were the ones I recall most clearly. Kvothe himself could be the reddest red-herring of all! /tongue.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />

#159 thistlepong

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 11:00 AM

Laurian's pretty confident that Kvothe inherited Arliden's hands, despite their jests. Kvothe tells us he has Laurian's eyes. And neither of them admit to knowing Yllish.

Deoch and Stanchion are Yllish, though; with black and red locks respectively. So there's nothing saying that either parent might not be Yllish and produce a red haired kid. On the other hand, he's an aberration, right? He would have been burned for his hair or his knack a couple centuries back.

#160 Tears of Lys

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 02:38 PM

No. I agree there's nothing definitive. It's just another bit of tantalizing business Rothfuss is playing with us about.