The Wise Man's Fear VII (Spoilers and speculation)

[bradd]

Red Wedding - I think what PR has done with the KKC is beautiful... there's so many places where you can accept or reject one piece of "evidence" and it completely reverses the whole story. You'll find stacks of supporting evidence too, which only make sense under their own particular theory... sometimes I wonder if it's all just a fluke but in all honesty I think PR has nailed it :) I think it would be a mistake to take every statement in the text literally - but by the same token it would be a mistake to ignore them as well. This is a good example of one where I think the literal meaning is probably unlikely, but the statement itself still has some importance. The big thing here I think is the link between the Ruh and stories (or history) - why would people think the Ruh know everything about everything? Is there some link in the Ruh's past with historians, or maybe even creators of history? Were the early Ruh immortal, so had seen many stories? Have the early Ruh visited Fae, and have been exposed to other new stories? I kind of answered your question here with about half a dozen new questions but I can't get a handle around the mind boggling number of combinations that arrive from assuming every statement in the book is either literal or a deliberate falsehood. So I'm taking the easy way out and assuming it's all Kvothe bragging :)

stumpzapper - I can give you a bit more Iax speculation too if you like.... might be useful, probably not :) I'll even start with quotes...

First

"When you know the name of a thing you have mastery over it," I said.

"no," she said, startling me with the weight of rebuke in her voice. "mastery was not given. they had the deep knowing of things. not mastery. to swim is not mastery over the water. to eat an apple is not mastery of the apple." She gave me a sharp look. "do you understand?"

Second

She drew a deep breath and let it out in a sigh. "then came those who saw a thing and thought of changing it. they thought in terms of mastery. they were shapers, proud dreamers"

Third

I couldn't guess what she might marvel at. "What did they make?"

She gestured widely around us.

"Trees?" I asked, awestruck.

She laughed at my tone. "no. the faen realm." she waved widely. "wrought according to their will. the greatest of them sewed it from whole cloth. a place where they could do as they desired. and at the end of all their work, each shaper wrought a star to fill their new and empty sky."

So I get from that the shapers created the Faen realm using magic that they didn't completely understand. Makes sense - they knew what they were doing in principle but didn't understand exactly how it worked. So a few more quotes

Fourth

I asked Felurian a few careful questions about magic, not wanting to offend her by prying at her secrets.

Unfortunately, her answers were not particularly enlightening. Her magic came as naturally as breathing. I might as well have asked a farmer how seeds sprouted. When her answers weren't hopelessly nonchalant, they were puzzlingly cryptic.

Fifth

Felurian had worked her way up from starlight, and was wefting moonlight into the shaed. She didn't look up from her work when she replied, "so many thoughts, my kvothe. you know too much to be happy." That sounded uncomfortably like something Elodin would say.

...

Smiling, Felurian reach out and took hold of it as if it were the most natural thing in the world. She touched my cheek with her free hand, then turned her attention to her lap and worked the strand of moonlight into the folds of shadow.

Sounds an awful lot like a shaper making the Faen realm right? What Iax did could be very similar (or identical) to what Felurian is doing. And if you buy the full version of events from above, it kinda makes sense too - why is Felurian trapped in Fae now if she used to be in the 4C? Because she's a shaper. The good part about this is it can tie in with the Felurian=Alenta theory - she doesn't necessarily have to be one of the shapers that created the Fae, but maybe she was cursed into being Alenta, which gave her "shaper powers" and got her sent to Fae.

So back to Iax... there's been a few mentions of Tarbolin's cloak of many colours being similar to the shaed. Well, if the shaed is like a small version of the Fae realm, could Tarbolin and his cloak be a metaphor for Iax and his "sewn" Faen realm? This also kinda makes sense - Tarbolin is always fighting the Chandrian, which ties in with Iax fighting the Chandrian. It's also not really mutually exclusive with Iax being behind the four plate door - Fela mentions a sleeping King, which is Iax is the older protector/King/Emperor of MT/Ergen, then that kinda works too.

A bit more work trying to tie that together too - if you take the names of the cities as presented in Skarpi1, remove Tinusa (as the non-betrayed city) and line them up in order next to the names from Shehyn's story, you get -

Belen - Cyphus

Antus - Stercus

Vaeret - Ferule

Emlen - Usnea

Murilla - Dalcenti

Murella - Alenta

Myr Tariniel - Alaxel

Now there's absolutely no reason for this to mean anything at all, but.... we know Alaxel betrayed Myr Tariniel. We know Felurian (possibly=Alenta) sat on the walls of Murella. We know (from translated versions) that Dalcenti is possibly the other female (and Murilla is the twin city of Murella). We know that Ferule was doing something unusual in Vintas (which may have etymological roots from Vaeret). And finally if Tarbolin has frequent run ins with Cyphus and you believe Tarbolin=Iax and Iax spent time in Belen constructing the Fae, well Cyphus protects Belen which makes sense too.

If you want to go the full monty, I can give you one more link. People have mentioned the link between Elodin and Tarbolin. Elodin knows what a shaed is, and how it's made of old magic. Quote five from above says that Felurian (possible shaper) sounds like Elodin (there's actually a few quotes that are similar here - at one point he describes her as a more attractive version of Elodin). So yeah... may be a link there between Elodin and Iax. I love speculation :)

And one more quote - not relevant, but because I can...

She stopped, frowning at me. "be mindful of my words."

"I am," I lied.

"no. you are mindful of my breasts."

[dambros]

Bradd, since you've mentioned Hespe's story. How come Hespe (and her mother) knows this story whilst Edema Ruhs do not, although they claim to know every single story in the world? Seems little odd, doesn't it?

Dambros, agree with you on Devi. In NoTW Kvothe says, "now, let's introduce THE woman" which must be either Auri or Devi since he introduced Denna before. I think there must be a really good reason why Devi wants access to the library so badly (more than just books). To me, this sounds like she wants to go to the four-plate door or to Puppet.

Devi has an amazing background full of mistery behind her and I guess this is the reason I liked her so badly. Kvothe realized she was filthy rich by the end of the book so it made clear she was after more than money and, like you said books (afterall she could buy whatever she wants). My guess has to go with you, she wants whatever is behind the door and she may even know how to open it.

Puppet? What do you mean by it? Is it the guy in the library Simmon took Kvothe and he carved a wood with Kvothe's face?

I don't know about Auri. She has a lot of potential, but there isn't anything about her past or anything more than their meetings on the roof. I hope she guards some major secret, afterall even Elodin knew her so there must be something about her which makes her special!

May I ask what language you read the books in? We've been trying to figure out which names are similar in order to derive clues from that.

I read the book in Brazilian Portuguese. Most names are pretty close to the ones I saw on the internet, like Chandrian - Chandriano, Threpe - Theirpe, Felurian - Feluriana, but I have to say, I have no idea who that "Puppet" meantioned above is.

I think the biggest difference I've seen so far is in the name of the Inn Kvothe owns. In english it's called Waystone Inn while in portuguese there is no direct translation to that so I can assume a Waystone is some sort of mark on a road or something, because they called the inn "Pousada Marco do Percurso", which means exactly that: something marking a road.

If you need any other names in Portuguese, just feel free to ask.

[thistlepong]

If you need any other names in Portuguese, just feel free to ask.

Welcome to the discussion and thank you, dambros.

Puppet is the odd guy in the Archives that carves Kvothe out of wood. What is he called in Brazilian Portuguese?

Other names we've been interested in are:

• Denna's patron, call Master Ash in English
  
• Bredon, the man at Maer Alveron's court who teaches Kvothe about rings
  
• The names of the Seven (Chandrian) Kvothe learns from the Adem
  
• The names from Skarpi's stories in Tarbean
  

I'd also be interested in whether there appears to be any racial diversity in the Brazilian Portuguese translation. In English, we have to struggle to see anything other than pale skin tones. And are there any indicators about the genders of the Chandrian?

Ignore or answer at your leisure. Thanks.

[unJon]

Crackpot analogy/prediction of the day:

Tarbolin is to Arliden as Kvothe is to Kote.

You heard it here first. ;)

[Sci-2]

I'm speculating, but I reckon he'll probably confront (and presumably kill) Cinder. He could also encounter some of the other Chandrian, but I think the framing story implies that the Chandrian are still a threat during Kvothe's time at the Inn.

I wonder if it is that easy. I suspect one of the immortal Amyr or a Fae (Bast?) will help him. We do know that the Chandrian left Kvothe alive because someone was coming. I suspect these someone's have taken notice of Kvothe and are watching him.

The Chandrian are apparently always on the move, and incredibly worried about getting caught. To this end they seem to use teleportation to jump distances. Kvothe may simply end up delaying Cinder long enough for the pursuers to catch up with him.

That's the tricking of the demon.

Kvothe may then accidentally kill this "angel" in the confusion.

[stumpzapper]

Red Wedding - I wonder if Hespe is descended fromt the Amyr, or some ancient race of warriors. It would explain why she ended up a mercenary (this is of course pure speculation).

bradd - love the links and speculation. I know it's been brought up before, and maybe Thistle can answer, but do we have an idea of WHEN Tamborlin the great was active? I've always assumed it was sometime after the fall of the seven cities, but maybe it was before. King Scyphus is almost certainly Cyphus, so maybe being a king is what would have given him the power to betray the city in the first place. Could fit witht he Thistle Theory. Alternatively, it could show that in more modern times the Chandrian are capable of assuming power without being recognized. Perhaps one of the Chandrian is posing as a king when Kvothe kills him, hence "Kingkiller".

unJon - Manet is Tamborlin. Bradd just showed that Elodin was Tamborlin, so obviously Tamborlin is using his powers to assume multiple roles ithin the University.

sciborg - You bring up a point I keep forgetting to mention: doesn't Kvothe have a vision of a flaming angel thingy when he's living on the streets in NotW? I think it's after he gets his ass kicked at some point (possible by the guard). He's lying on the ground dying and sees some creature with flaming wings. Maybe he's seeing an honest to god Amyr (after Aleph's transformation they're supposed to be near invisible to mortals). If he IS seeing a real Amyr it would lend credence to the idea that the Amyr (or somebody) is keeping tabs on Kvothe. *gasp!* DENNA IS AN AMYR AND ALSO MANET!

[thistlepong]

stumpzapper:

There are some fairly hard limits on Taborlin's life & times, but bradd's willing to ignore bits in the name of fun with speculation. Based on the timeline, Felurian's ignorance, Kvothe's own observations, and the relatively common knowledge of the story, the absolute maximum for the story is less than a thousand years. Like I said in the timeline post, though, less than five hundred is far more likely. And given the cultural presence of the story is similar to those of the still living Oren Velciter, probably less than two hundred,

[dambros]

Welcome to the discussion and thank you, dambros.

Puppet is the odd guy in the Archives that carves Kvothe out of wood.  What is he called in Brazilian Portuguese?

Other names we've been interested in are:

• Denna's patron, call Master Ash in English
  
• Bredon, the man at Maer Alveron's court who teaches Kvothe about rings
  
• The names of the Seven (Chandrian) Kvothe learns from the Adem
  
• The names from Skarpi's stories in Tarbean
  

I'd also be interested in whether there appears to be any racial diversity in the Brazilian Portuguese translation.  In English, we have to struggle to see anything other than pale skin tones.  And are there any indicators about the genders of the Chandrian?

Ignore or answer at your leisure.  Thanks.

It is a pleasure to try to help, lets do it:

Puppet - Marionetista

Denna's patron, call Master Ash in English - Mestre Freixo

Bredon, the man at Maer Alveron's court who teaches Kvothe about rings - Same thing here, Bredon

The names of the Seven (Chandrian) Kvothe learns from the Adem - Cyphus, Stercus, Ferule, Usnea, Dalcenti, Alenta e Alaxel

The names from Skarpi's stories in Tarbean - People: Selitos, Lanre, Lyra, Aleph, Iax  - Cities: Myr Tariniel, Ergen, Belen, Antus, Vaeret, Tinusa, Emlen, Murilla and Murella - Battles: Guerra da Criação, Blac de Drossen Tor - Names Used by Lanre: Silanxi, Aerub

They don't say anything about anyone's gender or skin tones other than  "A pálida Alenta traz a peste" (The pale Alenta brings the pest). They always make references using colors, like "Dalcenti, do cinzento silência, nunca fala" (Dalcenti, the one with the grayish silence, never speaks).

[jumbles]

Dambros, agree with you on Devi. In NoTW Kvothe says, "now, let's introduce THE woman" which must be either Auri or Devi since he introduced Denna before. I think there must be a really good reason why Devi wants access to the library so badly (more than just books). To me, this sounds like she wants to go to the four-plate door or to Puppet.

I'm pretty sure Denna is "THE woman." From NotWc53:

The Eolian is where our long-sought player is waiting in the wings. I have not forgotten that she is what I am moving toward. If I seem to be caught in a slow circling of the subject, it is only appropriate, as she and I have always moved toward each other in slow circles.

Also, I just noticed that the wording, "she and I have always" suggests that she is still alive (and moving toward him in slow circles). If she were dead, I would think he would have said, "she and I had always" or just "she and I always."

They don't say anything about anyone's gender or skin tones other than "A pálida Alenta traz a peste" (The pale Alenta brings the pest). They always make references using colors, like "Dalcenti, do cinzento silência, nunca fala" (Dalcenti, the one with the grayish silence, never speaks).

It's very interesting that the silence rather than the person is described as grey. Thanks!

[bradd]

stumpzapper - Best upper bound for Tarbolin is Felurian not knowing his name. Could be she was lying, could be she just hadn't heard of him but some time around or after the Creation War makes sense. :)

thistle - There is absolutely no evidence at all to support your idea that the Tarbolin legend came into existence 500-1000 years prior. At best, it's speculation and it's based on flawed logic. There is specific and deliberate evidence in the text that contradicts this. A few pages back you threw out the same argument for why the hermit in Hespe's story couldn't be Teccam. I'll adress both here.

Your argument seems to be based on the idea that a story can only exist for a certain amount of time before it's completely changed around or stops being told. Likewise, your argument with Teccam was that Kvothe was studying the Theophany and using Teccam's theories when the oldest books in the library dated 2000 years. Great. Ever used Pythagoras' theorem? I'm pretty sure that the formula we use today is the exact same one they were using back then - so there's a 2500 year old theory that's held up. Ever read the Iliad and/or the Odyssey? There's a 3000+ year old story that's held up. Ever read the bible? There's a 2000+ year old story that's held up. Are the current versions word for word literal translations on what was originally written? Probably not, but I don't think any is taking the words of the old stories in the text to be literal.

There's also direct contradictions in the text. Shehyn tells the story of the Chandrian betraying their cities and then names. She then tells Kvothe that the tradition is, once this story has been told, he cannot ask questions and must not mention the story again for 1000 days. So this story has been told once every 3 years or so for the last 5000 years and we're expected to believe that whoever hears the story remembers all seven names perfectly after hearing them only once? The crazy thing about it is that it completely holds up - we have an eyewitness account of Kvothe hearing Haliax name Cinder as Ferula. So on the face of it, it looks like that's exactly what's happened - some way or another, that story has been passed down over 5000 years after only being spoken of once every three or so years. You'd have to imagine the stories of Tarbolin get more coverage than that right?

Ditto for King Syphus. Acquainting him with Cyphus the Chandrian is a completely logical step. So if this story was created 500-1000 years ago, the inventor just happened to pick the name of someone who lived 5000 years ago and was likely a King/Noble/Protector? That's a pretty big coincidence. And if it is based on Cyphus, but the Chandrian version of Cyphus in some event 1000 years prior, then where did they get the idea of him being a King from? Lucky guess? Around the Creation War, we have an era where all kinds of wonderful magic was present (just ask Felurian). That magic was lost over the years to become the weaker version that's in the current day story. So what's more likely - that the Tarbolin stories talk about someone who lived in the age of powerful magicians, or that it was invented a thousand years before based on some one off who just happened to be born with similar powers to the magicians from thousands of years beforehand?

If you're stating that the 500-1000 year time period you've put on Tarbolin's stories is speculation then sure, maybe. But if you're arguing that the stories must derive from 500-1000 years beforehand and that any speculation that doesn't tie in with your timeline is "ignoring bits in the fun of speculation" then I completely disagree.

jumbles/dambros - Grey and silent... is that conjuring up images of a Tehlin monk who's taken a vow of silence to anyone else? :)

[thistlepong]

Felurian has heard of Illien. Illien's crowning achievement, The Ballad of Sir Savien Tralliard, is about a Tehlin Amyr. The Tehlin church is a thousand years old, defining a maximum for Illien. Felurian has not heard of Taborlin, placing him inside that thousand years. The stories say Taborlin went to the University to learn the names of all things, further limiting the possible age. The University arose some time after the burning of Caluptena... by the Tehlin church. So say felurian was lying. That would be convenient. The historical record corroborates he not lying, though.

As for Teccam, five thousand years is a long time. Even Hebrew scholars can't say with certainty that Moses wrote the Torah. And no one's going around claiming definite authorship for the Vedas or the Epic of Gilgamesh. I am saying that Teccam, widely read and quoted, with three separate works in print, and a commonly accepted representation, pretty much cannot predate the knowledge from Caluptena. Disagree all you want, but do try to pay attention to the text.

Any of the Seven could have been a king within the last thousand years. I wouldn't be surprised at all. A good portion of the speculation in these seven threads is about who might or might not be an Amyr or a Chandrian in a position of power concurrent with Kvothe's story.

So no, my argument isn't really based on the idea that a story can only be around for a certain amount of time. That idea helps, though :wub:

[bradd]

You've just completely proven my point. What you've given isn't a proof, it's speculation. There are dozens of other ideas which fit the facts you've given.

1. Felurian has heard of Illien (who is inside a thousand years) but not Tarbolin.

Felurian heard of Illien from someone she brought to Fae.

Felurian heard about Illien when she travelled to the 4C.

Illien travelled to Fae and Felurian heard about it from someone else in Fae.

Felurian met Illien in Fae.

2. Tarbolin went to University.

Tarbolin went somewhere to learn that wasn't the University.

The University has existed for longer than 1000 years.

Tarbolin studied magic with other strong magicians in his time.

3. The university arose after the burning of Caluptena - this isn't a fact, it's speculation. The oldest items in the library are from Caluptena. The University has "the most open minded atmosphere since Caluptena burnt to the ground". These are the facts, and there's dozens of explanations that don't require the University to be built after the burning of Caluptena.

An older version of the University existed at Caluptena, which was later rebuilt at Imre.

The library for the University was at Caluptena.

During the burning of Caluptena, the University library was also purged of all history books.

Since the burning of Caluptena, the University library has been purged of all history books pre-dating that event.

History books pre-dating the fall of Caluptena are still in the Unviersity, but not advertised to students.

And on open mindedness, the University used to be less open minded than Caluptena.

4. Teccam can't predate the knowledge of Caluptena - again this is speculation.

Teccam's works were hidden at the time of the burning.

Teccam's works were so well studied by magicians that they were re-written at a later date.

Teccam's works were so popular that they were all over the 4C at the time of the burning of Caluptena.

Heaps of explanations, and that's not even touching on the idea you mention at the end - we're talking about a book full of immortals. There's every possibility that Teccam and/or Tarbolin are immortal, which easily quantifies how something that happened 5000 years ago could still be around today. I'll say what I said before - there is absolutely no proof that the legend must have originated 500-1000 years ago. There are plausible scenarios where it can be dated back to the Creation War. No need to get personal :)

[JezDynamite]

Kvothe tells us he has Laurian's eyes.

Kvothe seems to have Faen blood too. Felurian, Bast and Kvothe are the only people mentioned who's eyes are described as changing colour. FYI - Kvothe's eyes were noted as changing colour before he met Felurian in the Faen realm.

Could Laurian/Netalia have Faen blood if Kvothe got his eyes from his mum? This may add credence to the Lackless family having a connection to the Faen realm. How far back in time is this connection? I can only guess.

Has anyone tried to link the Lackless family with Faen origins?

Could the Lackless family be descendants of the Faen guardians of the Loeclos box?

[jumbles]

Kvothe seems to have Faen blood too. Felurian, Bast and Kvothe are the only people mentioned who's eyes are described as changing colour. FYI - Kvothe's eyes were noted as changing colour before he met Felurian in the Faen realm.

Felurian describes Iax/Jax as a "shaper of the dark and changing eye" (WMFc102). I assumed that meant his eyes changed color.

[Cold Pie]

So I started compiling details about Meluan, and noticed something troubling. And it kind of goes with the red herring notion. The first set is Meluan. The second set is Denna.

She was dressed in grey and lavender, and her curling chestnut hair was pulled back to reveal her elegant neck.

Her mouth was full and red without the benefit of any paint.

Her dark brown eyes were gravely serious.

Her hair was arranged to display her elegant neck to good effect, revealing the emerald teardrop earrings and matching necklace at her throat

Her lips, as always, were red without the aid of any paint.

I looked into the deep brown of her eyes.

I think i'd jump all over that if it were any other two characters. But I came to this discussion assured that Laurian was Netalia and that it was old news less than a week after publication. Still, damn odd.

When Kvothe first sets eyes on Meluan, he

Are their any Denna = Lackless theories that I have been unable to find? The idea that Denna might have some noble heritage from some family that's either Lackless or somehow related to them, is rather plausible. She definitely knows how to get around in noble cirkles, with all her upper-class dates. Denna has had a troubling life, maybe that's because she fled from her noble family at a young age and settled for a life on the road instead. Or, she's just a peasant girl, but nevertheless I think we will find her heritage very important to the story, since her whole character is pretty much based upon the mystery of her past, and I'm sure her family has to do with it in some way.

Perhaps they died, or molested her. She fled from something, that's for sure: whether it was her family or something else remains to be seen though.

[bradd]

Jez/Jumbles - I wonder if Felurian's eyes always changed colour? At least some of the people inside Fae used to live in the 4C (like Felurian) - did their eyes gain the ability to change colour once they were imprisoned? Seems kinda odd that everyone in Fae had changing eyes on the outside? And if it's a heredity thing, I can't really come up with a plausible scenario where Felurian, Bast and Kvothe have common ancestry. Only other option I can think of is maybe changing eyes don't relate to ancestors or the Fae, but there is something else linking the three - I dunno, I'm just throwing random ideas out here but maybe changing colour eyes identify people with strong magic? Or maybe people who are cursed? Could be anything :)

[Nisheeth]

Just had a crackpot idea.

In the first book, Kvothe says he knew he won't be meeting Denna again after they parted ways at the University.

What if he was right, and not just intentionally unreliable?

Maybe be the person he met in the Eolian was someone else, maybe in Denna's form & with her memories, or something?

[jurble]

Just had a crackpot idea.

In the first book, Kvothe says he knew he won't be meeting Denna again after they parted ways at the University.

What if he was right, and not just intentionally unreliable?

Maybe be the person he met in the Eolian was someone else, maybe in Denna's form & with her memories, or something?

No, he was right. She just changes her calling name constantly...

Or maybe her Master is actually a Shaper, and everytime after that first meeting Denna's Name has been changed.

[Nisheeth]

No, he was right. She just changes her calling name constantly...

Or maybe her Master is actually a Shaper, and everytime after that first meeting Denna's Name has been changed.

Actually, what he said was,

Because of this I knew the truth. I felt it, heavy and certain in the pit of my stomach: I would never see her again.

Simply changing the calling name won't change the person. So she could have been a different person in Eolian.

She met Kvothe a couple of times before meeting her Master, so even if Master Ash is a Shaper, he couldn't have couldn't have changed the name until after he met her.

[jurble]

Alright:

Denna is a Shaper.