428 replies to this topic

[Biter]

Welcome to the board!

I just finished WMF a couple of days ago, so I'll leave most of your comments for more knowledgable posters.

Robert Hughes, on 29 February 2012 - 01:35 PM, said:

I also can't remember the name of the damned scary tree seer thing that bast was so afraid of. But small point of note: it tells him to stick near the Maer and he will lead Kvothe to their door. Also says that the maer is come close to one but doesn't know it. The simple answer isn't bredon or anyone else. It's His wife. The lockless door, may be the same door as the Amyr. She doesn't know what's in the box, but then given what we are trying to understand of the history of the Amyr, that would make perfect sense.


Perhaps one of the rings in the poem about Kvothe represents himself, a ring for all the names you know after all. We know that he has changed his. I thought perhaps it was the blood ring, flowing. Representing a part of him, and I also tried to connect that to the blood that is required to open the lockelss door, just a thought. I also entertained the possibility that the nameless ring was his, because of the danger suggested by elodin in changing ones own name. Perhaps he hasn't just changed his name, perhaps he's lost it. I really doubt a part of his name is what he's hiding in that box. I'm not even convinced it's \his\ box.

The seer creature is called the Cthaeh.

I'm not sure I get what you're saying about the ring, but maybe it's related to what I've been thinking about since finishing the book...

Quote

On his first hand he wore rings of stone,

Iron, amber, wood and bone.

There were rings unseen on his second hand.

One was blood in a flowing band.

One of air all whisper thin,

And the ring of ice had a flaw within.

Full faintly shone the ring of flame,

and the final ring was without name.

Is the ring of air the one mentioned in the discussion between Kvothe and Elodin right at the end of WMF?

Quote

Seven things stand before

The entrance to the Lackless door.

One of them a ring unworn

One a word that is forsworn

One a time that must be right

One a candle without light

One a son who brings the blood

One a door that holds the flood

One a thing tight-held in keeping

Then comes that which comes with sleeping.

I'll be back with more thoughts later...

[Robert Hughes]

I also just noticed something else. Part of the poem that denna and kvothe recite about the pale girl and the chandrian is:

See a woman pale as snow?

Silent come and silent go.

What's their plan? What's their plan?

Chandrian. Chandrian.

Does anyone else think this coincides with the fact that all except once, denna turns up and leaves without so much as a word to Kvothe or anyone else. Silent come, silent go.

I think it's all just a marvellous red herring, and she is not one of the chandrian at all, though.

[stumpzapper]

Robert Hughes, you bring up a topic that's been rattling around in my head for awhile now, namely that of Kvothe becoming a shaper. I know it's been addressed before, but I had a couple of new thoughts. First, I think Kvothe's downfall/tragedy does and will mirror in many ways those of Iax (Jax in Hespe's story).

Consider:
- The Hespe story occurs in the middle of the second book. Structurally speaking it's smack dab in the middle of the trilogy. In classic literature the story typically hinges on whatever happens in the middle of the second act (Macbeth kills Duncan, etc.)

- Iax lives alone in a broken house at the end of a broken road. I'm not sure what the house or street symbolize, but it could be a traumatic childhood, or growing up in poverty, or having your entire family murdered by immortal half-gods (all of which apply to Kvothe, by the way).

- Iax leaves to go chase his dream, and ends up meeting a wise man at a cave. With all due respect to Thistlepong's Selitos theory, I think the simplest explanation is that this man is Teccam, the early founder of the University (not a new observation or my own, but consistent with art at the University showing Teccam preaching before a cave). So just like Kvothe, Iax ends up at the University and is eager to learn.

- Iax's teacher is a skilled Namer (or Listener) who lives in harmony with the world rather than attempting to dominate it (he politely asks the knot to undo itself). He offers to teach Iax these techniques. Like Kvothe, Iax is incredibly gifted (this according to Felurian)

- Iax is too impatient to learn the wise man's techniques and instead misunderstands/misuses it, just as Kvothe misuses the Adem training, as he misuses Abenthy's instruction, as he misuses information he acquires at the University.

- Iax uses music to woo the moon, just as Kvothe tries to use music to woo Denna (who, as others have pointed out, has many moon-like qualities). Tragedy results.

The one concrete thing we know about Iax is that was a gifted shaper, though it is somewhat unclear what the difference is between Naming, Shaping, and Listening. While I agree that the difference between Naming and Shaping could be philosophical, I am more inclined to believe that Shaping involves altering the physical properties of the world (for instance the ancient artifacts in Kilvin's workshop, as was pointed out). If this is the case, then Kvothe becoming a shaper could explain a number of plot points. First, it would give him immense power and explain how he manages to kill a Chandrian (assuming he does). More importantly, it would explain why nobody can mend the stones in the square of Imre where kvothe killed whoever it was he killed. If he used shaping to kill someone then the physical nature of the stone would be altered and it would no longer respond even to naming. Surely the University would send someone like Elodin or Fela to clean up the mess in Imre - but if the stones have been shaped even someone who knows the name of stone would not be able to repair the damage. Shaping might also explain why Kvothe's sword in the inn is different than the one he received in Haert. in his mind he renames it Caesura, even though the Adem tell him what its name really is. Maybe the act of renaming the sword alters its physical properties as well. Finally, a lot of people have speculated that Kvothe alters his own name somehow and that is what causes him to lose most of his abilities. Perhaps he does this through shaping.

[stumpzapper]

On a lighter note, did anyone else laugh out loud the first time they read the conversation between Jax and the moon?

Jax: I want three wishes.
Moon: Sure thing.
Jax: I want to hold your hand.
Moon: I'd love to hold your hand.
Jax: I want a kiss.
Moon: I'd love you to give me a kiss.
Jax: I want to know your name.
Moon: I'd love to have sex with y... Wait, what?

[Robert Hughes]

stumpzapper, on 29 February 2012 - 05:34 PM, said:

Robert Hughes, you bring up a topic that's been rattling around in my head for awhile now, namely that of Kvothe becoming a shaper. I know it's been addressed before, but I had a couple of new thoughts. First, I think Kvothe's downfall/tragedy does and will mirror in many ways those of Iax (Jax in Hespe's story).

Consider:
- The Hespe story occurs in the middle of the second book. Structurally speaking it's smack dab in the middle of the trilogy. In classic literature the story typically hinges on whatever happens in the middle of the second act (Macbeth kills Duncan, etc.)

- Iax lives alone in a broken house at the end of a broken road. I'm not sure what the house or street symbolize, but it could be a traumatic childhood, or growing up in poverty, or having your entire family murdered by immortal half-gods (all of which apply to Kvothe, by the way).

- Iax leaves to go chase his dream, and ends up meeting a wise man at a cave. With all due respect to Thistlepong's Selitos theory, I think the simplest explanation is that this man is Teccam, the early founder of the University (not a new observation or my own, but consistent with art at the University showing Teccam preaching before a cave). So just like Kvothe, Iax ends up at the University and is eager to learn.

- Iax's teacher is a skilled Namer (or Listener) who lives in harmony with the world rather than attempting to dominate it (he politely asks the knot to undo itself). He offers to teach Iax these techniques. Like Kvothe, Iax is incredibly gifted (this according to Felurian)

- Iax is too impatient to learn the wise man's techniques and instead misunderstands/misuses it, just as Kvothe misuses the Adem training, as he misuses Abenthy's instruction, as he misuses information he acquires at the University.

- Iax uses music to woo the moon, just as Kvothe tries to use music to woo Denna (who, as others have pointed out, has many moon-like qualities). Tragedy results.

The one concrete thing we know about Iax is that was a gifted shaper, though it is somewhat unclear what the difference is between Naming, Shaping, and Listening. While I agree that the difference between Naming and Shaping could be philosophical, I am more inclined to believe that Shaping involves altering the physical properties of the world (for instance the ancient artifacts in Kilvin's workshop, as was pointed out). If this is the case, then Kvothe becoming a shaper could explain a number of plot points. First, it would give him immense power and explain how he manages to kill a Chandrian (assuming he does). More importantly, it would explain why nobody can mend the stones in the square of Imre where kvothe killed whoever it was he killed. If he used shaping to kill someone then the physical nature of the stone would be altered and it would no longer respond even to naming. Surely the University would send someone like Elodin or Fela to clean up the mess in Imre - but if the stones have been shaped even someone who knows the name of stone would not be able to repair the damage. Shaping might also explain why Kvothe's sword in the inn is different than the one he received in Haert. in his mind he renames it Caesura, even though the Adem tell him what its name really is. Maybe the act of renaming the sword alters its physical properties as well. Finally, a lot of people have speculated that Kvothe alters his own name somehow and that is what causes him to lose most of his abilities. Perhaps he does this through shaping.

I think this lines with what I said. A namer that chooses to use his knowledge of a true name, to change the true name would be a shaper. Thus changing the stones from stone to whatever he wanted.

Although I don't doubt for a second that Elodin could reverse Kvothe's damage. Elodin is constantly set up as even more of a star than Kvothe, and we've already seen what happens when someone changes the name / context / or content of things for him. He simply figured out the new one, and broke the wall anyway.

I also agree he probably shaped himself out of being Kvothe. Changed his name deliberately.

However, I don't think that's what he did with the sword. He had to return the sword to the Adem if he died. I think he would truly stick to that oath.

[thistlepong]

The Teccam theory is ridiculous.

You're suggesting that a single figure remained unchanged in the popular consciousness through centuries of war, the obliteration of population and civilization, two succeeding world orders and three distinct linguistic periods over something like 5500 years.  And managed to keep two works in print.  If you mean that Hespe's story cribs Teccam for a recognizable character, then sure.  If you mean it literally... I'm sorry?

Other than that I like the points of parallel you point out between Kvothe/Denna and Jax/Ludis.

[unJon]

thistlepong, on 29 February 2012 - 12:31 AM, said:

This is the only glass stone mentioned in the Chronicle.¹  It was used to by Selitos to cut out his own eye, the blood from which he used to curse Lanre.

He cast the stone at Lanre’s feet and said, “By the power of my own blood I bind you. By your own name let you be accursed.”

Wow, I never noticed that Selitos is combining sympathy (binding him with blood) with naming (cursed by his own name). Could Shaping be that simple? Create sympathetic link between two objects that you know the name of. Name both andd mix them together (somehow) through the sympathetic link? Seems weird, but it would make the Kilvin shaped objects have thematic sense, and let Kvothe discover the secret of Shaping while working on a project in Kilvin's lab. Hmmm.

Would also explain why Elodin is always hanging out there pretending to be Manet. :-;

[unJon]

Sorry for double-post, on bberry so can't edit.

This would also provide a neat explanation for why Lanre goes from no naming ability to a powerful namer. Selitos mixed some of himself into Lanre through binding Lanre to Selitos through his blood to Shape Lanre into Haliax.

If you want to support Thistlepong's theory, you could also say that it's Selitos' dark nature that turns Lanre from a 'good guy' into the shady Haliax. YMMV. My big problem with the Thistle theory (TT) is that it doesn't explain why Lanre goes from non-betrayer to hanging out with the other Chandrian, who presumptively are the betrayers of their respective cities. Though you can follow Selitos = Ctheath without going all the waay down the rabbit hole, I think.

[Aemon Blackfyre]

Well felurian has been around for that long she predates the Fae realm and thus the faen people for all i know puppet could be Teccam (lol).

But what i can't get is why would Lanre seek the destruction of all things at the same time he saves a city to turn agains Selitos and MT? I know we only get Skarpi's PoV. I also  don't believe in good x evil in this book what i tried to point out is that in the pursuit of their own agenda, whatever it may be, the Chandrian will be brutal and ruthless to erase any traces of their true purpose. The Amyr are as brutal though, maybe a little less.

Wich brings the question about what is really going on. If Selitos is the Ctaeth (something Haliax says in the first book may corroborate to that, about who keeps the Chandrian safe FROM the Amyr, why would the Sithe be mentioned at all) is he still the head of the Amyr? What is their purpose? Maybe prevent the Chandrian from opening the box? And as for the Chandrian is their objective to wipe everything by opening the box or simply oposing the Amyr in some other purpose?

I'm short on time to look back for more info and do a better post. But i hope this can contribute a bit.

[unJon]

unJon, on 29 February 2012 - 10:13 PM, said:

Though you can follow Selitos = Ctheath without going all the waay down the rabbit hole, I think.

Just to expand on this, I mean that Selitos could be the Cteath and Lanre/Haliax could be the 'big bad' still.  It could be that the Cteath is misunderstood and is not all malicious.

Haliax then killed two birds with one stone.  He protects the Chandrian from the Amyr and the Sithe by locking up the Amyr founder in the Rhinna tree and convincing the Sithe that they need to be guarding him instead of out hunting Chandrian.

[Twelve Angry Nonmen]

unJon, on 29 February 2012 - 10:03 PM, said:

Wow, I never noticed that Selitos is combining sympathy (binding him with blood) with naming (cursed by his own name). Could Shaping be that simple? Create sympathetic link between two objects that you know the name of. Name both andd mix them together (somehow) through the sympathetic link? Seems weird, but it would make the Kilvin shaped objects have thematic sense, and let Kvothe discover the secret of Shaping while working on a project in Kilvin's lab. Hmmm.

Would also explain why Elodin is always hanging out there pretending to be Manet. :-;

Whoooaaaaa

[Merihathor]

Aemon Blackfyre, on 29 February 2012 - 11:05 PM, said:

Well felurian has been around for that long she predates the Fae realm and thus the faen people for all i know puppet could be Teccam (lol)

I ask out of simple curiousity: why is this funny? I ask, because this was the thought that crossed my mind during the encounter with Puppet (that he was possibly Teccam).

[thistlepong]

It's funny 'cause, as someone said beautifully in another venue, "Sometimes this seems like a bad spy novel.  Everyone is someone else."  We have our own version around here.  I think it's funny because Teccam is almost certainly just a classical scholar that predates the Aturan Empire, some of whose works survived the burning of Caluptena, and who came to symbolize the knowledge the university values.

Could Puppet be Him?  Sure.  But to what end?

[thistlepong]

unJon, on 29 February 2012 - 10:13 PM, said:

My big problem with the Thistle theory (TT) is that it doesn't explain why Lanre goes from non-betrayer to hanging out with the other Chandrian, who presumptively are the betrayers of their respective cities.

Simple responses as I'm short on time.  Lanre only had time to move his army.  They didn't have any sort of telephony, magical or technological, and once he found and explained his error and why they were all suddenly rusting metal and turning flames blue they set about... our purpose.  It's not destroying the world.

Aemon Blackfyre, on 29 February 2012 - 11:05 PM, said:

But what i can't get is why would Lanre seek the destruction of all things at the same time he saves a city to turn agains Selitos and MT? I know we only get Skarpi's PoV. I also  don't believe in good x evil in this book what i tried to point out is that in the pursuit of their own agenda, whatever it may be, the Chandrian will be brutal and ruthless to erase any traces of their true purpose. The Amyr are as brutal though, maybe a little less.

This doesn't require the TT...

I'll let this bit speak for your whole post.  The prevailing notion within the story is that the Amyr actually have access to the libraries and have erradicated all evidence of themselves.  Their original remit was to confound the plots of Lanre and his chandrian.  I don't wanna go too far, but the elimination of the written information about the Seven probably lies at their door.

unJon, on 29 February 2012 - 11:29 PM, said:

It could be that the Cteath is misunderstood and is not all malicious.ding him instead of out hunting Chandrian.

Which I sort of failed to articulate.  With or without the TT, the Cthaeh could just be ruthless, drive, and single minded.

[stumpzapper]

thistlepong, on 29 February 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

The Teccam theory is ridiculous.

You're suggesting that a single figure remained unchanged in the popular consciousness through centuries of war, the obliteration of population and civilization, two succeeding world orders and three distinct linguistic periods over something like 5500 years.  And managed to keep two works in print.  If you mean that Hespe's story cribs Teccam for a recognizable character, then sure.  If you mean it literally... I'm sorry?

Other than that I like the points of parallel you point out between Kvothe/Denna and Jax/Ludis.

I have no idea when Teccam lived, whether it was during the time of Iax or not. The man in the cave could be a generalized wise man that had Teccam imagery shoehorned in later. Or it could be Myr Tanriel as befitting the TT. I'm not particularly wedded to a strict interpretation, more that someone wise taught Iax and, like Kvothe, he learned things but completely missed the underlying point.

Edited by stumpzapper, 01 March 2012 - 02:00 PM.

[stumpzapper]

unJon, on 29 February 2012 - 10:03 PM, said:

Wow, I never noticed that Selitos is combining sympathy (binding him with blood) with naming (cursed by his own name). Could Shaping be that simple? Create sympathetic link between two objects that you know the name of. Name both andd mix them together (somehow) through the sympathetic link? Seems weird, but it would make the Kilvin shaped objects have thematic sense, and let Kvothe discover the secret of Shaping while working on a project in Kilvin's lab. Hmmm.

Interesting. That's a really cool idea.

I always figured shaping was somehow related to Yllish somehow: the Lackless Box has faint (possible) Yllish markings, the language is strangley structured so that owning socks means that the socks change you, the Arturan Empire (and therefore probably the Thelan Church and the Amyr) stamped out as much of the language as possible, the Chancellor becomes mysteriously ill when he tries to teach Kvothe Yllish, and Denna has Yllish knots in her hair and writing a song that's supposed to alter history and make Lanre a tragic hero.

Either that or I figured shaping was music-based somehow (Denna's song, Jax using a flute to alter the moon's behavior).

But given what we know I think it's clear that Shaping requires some sort of Naming component. maybe Naming + Sympathy = Shaping. It just seems to me that if shaping were truly that simple that someone would have stumbled onto it before Kvothe. In his time naming is a relatively rare art, but several hundred years before his time there were a lot more skilled (and reckless) namers and arcanists. You figure one of them would be into both naming and sympathy.

Edited by stumpzapper, 01 March 2012 - 11:47 AM.

[Merihathor]

thistlepong, on 01 March 2012 - 09:04 AM, said:

It's funny 'cause, as someone said beautifully in another venue, "Sometimes this seems like a bad spy novel.  Everyone is someone else."  We have our own version around here.  I think it's funny because Teccam is almost certainly just a classical scholar that predates the Aturan Empire, some of whose works survived the burning of Caluptena, and who came to symbolize the knowledge the university values.

Could Puppet be Him?  Sure.  But to what end?

Ok. I see your point. Thanks!

[Nisheeth]

I don't think Shaping is a combination of Sympthy & Naming.
Didn't Elodin (I am not sure, but it was someone) once tell Kvothe that Sympathy originated in the university.
Shaping existed far before the University.

[AverageGuy]

stumpzapper, on 01 March 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

someone wise taught Iax and, like Kvothe, he learned things but completely missed the underlying point.

Which is bad. Incomplete knowledge means disaster.

[Roose Bolton's Pet Leech]

I've finished these books as of late
And in rather atypical manner
I have feelings of love and of hate
(And to make matters worse
I'm now writing in verse
To the metre of Tinker and Tanner)

Seriously, I really can't decide my attitude towards this series. I love the writing, and the interest in verse appeals to me (the sheer fact that Rothfuss got two of his characters to conduct a conversation in rhyming iambic tetrameter warms my heart). Plus sympathy as a concept is awesome. Downside is that very little actually, well, happens in the space of over 1600 pages, most of the characters are forgettable, and Kvothe just reeks of wish fulfillment.

Speaking of sympathy though: it's established in WMF that you can link between a corpse and a living person. If you can link across bodies, why bother getting some of your victim's hair or blood when you can link your own hair to their hair or blood (yes, there would be more slippage, but it would save time and hassle)?.

Edited by Roose Bolton's Pet Leech, 02 March 2012 - 08:10 PM.