The Wise Man's Fear VII (Spoilers and speculation)

[thistlepong]

I'll elaborate on the King theory in a little bit but I wanted to say re skarpi 2, by all account Kvothe is a calling name. not "the secret music that lies at the heart of him" or words to that effect that Kvothe uses in Ademre and which is a much closer approximation of K's true name I assume. Skarpi might realise Kvothe's true name, but that wouldn't magically tell him Kvthe's calling name or that Kvothe takes to the rooftops to survive.

Elodin's knowledge of Kvothe's comings and goings and deeds puzzles me too, - meeting him by the Omethi bridg overhearing his conversation at the Eolian, his lack of surprise at Kvothe's return. I have no hesitation in saying Elodin knows Kvothe's name or part of it, but Skarpi is a very different kettle of fish from Elodin.

The genesis of the theory is here, post #47. It's an elegant solution to a weird problem that could easily also be PTSD. Kvothe escapes through the doors of madness and he says, "Make no mistake. I was not myself." After Skarpi says, "“You should run, Kvothe..." he comes back. Here's the boy we remember: clever, powerful, resourceful. He's out to kick ass and chew bubblegum and he's all out of bubblegum.

The weird thing is he should have aged a year between Hallowfell and Tarbean and he didn't. So many errors have been resolved for translators or newer editions, but not that.

so in terms of magic systems the fabled six sympathy, sygaldry, alchemy, naming, shaping and glamourie right?

iff you're saying shaping=grammarie...

ETA: And I just realized that we're attributing an awful lot to the Amyr. The "Singers" have as much right to the credit for chasing off the Chandrian after Kvothe's family were killed as the Amyr do. And it would seem right that beings called "Singers" would be drawn to an entertaining Ruh troupe. But maybe that's just a little too cute...

I think the simplest interpretation of Singers is Tehlu & Pals. They're they ones that scared the Chandrian away. They're the ones who responded to Marten's prayer. I wonder, and I think this is part of what Gaston's getting at, if we're not attributing too much to Skarpi.

[Gaston de Foix]

So a quick question - has anyone (and I assume the answer is almost certainly yes) developed a theory connecting Singers and dreams? Not just Kvothe's dream in the woods but also Nina's dream of the vase? It seems Tehlu and pals do try to shape human events,

Thistle, I wondered at the fertile ambiguity of grammarie= shaping myself. On the one hand making things be sounds like shaping and the six systems of magic are otherwise definite, but on the other hand Felurian definitely talks about shapers as a category excluding herself and wondrous even to her. Perhaps the answer is greater and lesser shapers, or that the Faen were themselves shaped from humans or vice versa. Certainly the Nameless appear to have been shaped.

[thistlepong]

So a quick question - has anyone (and I assume the answer is almost certainly yes) developed a theory connecting Singers and dreams? Not just Kvothe's dream in the woods but also Nina's dream of the vase? It seems Tehlu and pals do try to shape human events,

Thistle, I wondered at the fertile ambiguity of grammarie= shaping myself. On the one hand making things be sounds like shaping and the six systems of magic are otherwise definite, but on the other hand Felurian definitely talks about shapers as a category excluding herself and wondrous even to her. Perhaps the answer is greater and lesser shapers, or that the Faen were themselves shaped from humans or vice versa. Certainly the Nameless appear to have been shaped.

Developed? Not that I recall. It's been put forth but I don't recall anyone tracking down the dream sequences, comparing them and their contexts, and drawing responsible conclusions.

I'd say the six are Sympathy, Sygaldry, Alchemy, Naming, Grammarie, and Glamourie. We've seen examples of all of the above. They exist. If knots are magic they fall under the umbrella of one of those. Same with Shaping. Shaping is just big naming: those who saw a thing and thought to change it.

[TheValyrianDragonlord]

Was rereading the name of the wind the other day and caught something. Both Kvothe and Kilvin didn't think Hemme should have been burned. Kvothe said that he should only have gotten 10% transference. Kilvin thought blood and clay might have worked but not hair and wax. What's going on here. Rothfuss has established that Kilvin is basically never wrong when it comes to these sorts of calculations. He knows precisely how much Kvothe owes the fishery down to the nearest jot. He's able to transfer millions of thaums of heat during the reagent spill. And he doesn't understand why Hemme was burned.

Does this have to do with some special ability of Kvothes. Or is Hemme not quite human?

[jurble]

Wasn't Hemme playing up his injuries 'cuz he's an unlikeable person and whatnot.

[jumbles]

Or is Hemme not quite human?

Interesting thought. Hemme wasn't wearing a gram. Does anyone know if grams contain iron? How about copper (I ask about copper because Felurian mentioned copper knives being effective against her kind)?

[two_by_two]

Interesting thought. Hemme wasn't wearing a gram. Does anyone know if grams contain iron? How about copper (I ask about copper because Felurian mentioned copper knives being effective against her kind)?

I'm about 90% sure that grams contain iron. I do not believe they contain copper. I think they have gold and silver filigree.

[Nisheeth]

Was reading the new post on tor by Jo. One part where Kvothe says,

Forgot who I was there for a moment.

Reminds me a lot of what Haliax said when He first appeared,

Perhaps if not for these remindings, it would be I who would forget.

As for the Gram, I don't think it has very specific Materials required.

For instance, it was noted that Guilders are also grams.

Abenthy's Guilder was described as:

It looked rather unimpressive, just a flat piece of lead with some unfamiliar writing stamped onto it.

While Kvothe's was:

iron disk slightly larger than a commonwealth penny. It was covered in fine sygaldry and inlaid with gold.

So I don't think Iron or Lead are definite requirements.But they may have different effects on the strength of the guilder.

Gold is necessary for the Inlay (as per Kelvin)

[Tears of Lys]

Has it been addressed anywhere in these threads that Kvothe actually is letting everyone know his "true" name - Maedre - that the old Adem woman told him? She explicitly tells him not to let anyone know it, and yet he's revealing it to Chronicler, Bast, and whoever reads the story of his life.

[Gaston de Foix]

if it is true that Kvothe has changed his Name, then Maedre is no longer his true Ademic Name.

It's interesting that in NOTW the akin dancer notices somthing different about Kvothe and asks him if he is either Sithae or a Rhintae- this strongly implies Kvothe has somehow been Shaped or Shaped himself and so is no longer just an ordinary human.

[thistlepong]

Was rereading the name of the wind the other day and caught something. Both Kvothe and Kilvin didn't think Hemme should have been burned. Kvothe said that he should only have gotten 10% transference. Kilvin thought blood and clay might have worked but not hair and wax. What's going on here. Rothfuss has established that Kilvin is basically never wrong when it comes to these sorts of calculations. He knows precisely how much Kvothe owes the fishery down to the nearest jot. He's able to transfer millions of thaums of heat during the reagent spill. And he doesn't understand why Hemme was burned.

Does this have to do with some special ability of Kvothes. Or is Hemme not quite human?

Wasn't Hemme playing up his injuries 'cuz he's an unlikeable person and whatnot.

I took it the same way JUstRidingBLueEels did. Seems like Kilvin's impressed and Kvothe's playing dumb. We know he temporarily bound Devi with wax, hair, and the heat from his blood alone, and she's probably the strongest sympathist in the series. It would be kind of cool if Hemme was something else, but this alone wouldn't constitute proof.

Props to Nisheeth for hunting down the grams and their mats.

[Tears of Lys]

I think the fact that Hemme teaches "Theory" of Sympathy is somewhat telling. I wouldn't consider him to be a scary powerful character.

[two_by_two]

The genesis of the theory is here, post #47. It's an elegant solution to a weird problem that could easily also be PTSD. Kvothe escapes through the doors of madness and he says, "Make no mistake. I was not myself." After Skarpi says, "“You should run, Kvothe..." he comes back. Here's the boy we remember: clever, powerful, resourceful. He's out to kick ass and chew bubblegum and he's all out of bubblegum.

Also recall that when Elxa Dal uses the Name of fire, Kvothe only hears "fire". Perhaps Skarpi does in fact use his true Name, but Kvothe can only hear his given name.

[thistlepong]

Also recall that when Elxa Dal uses the Name of fire, Kvothe only hears "fire". Perhaps Skarpi does in fact use his true Name, but Kvothe can only hear his given name.

That's where I went with it because this happens quite a lot, actually. Kvothe goes from hearing nothing the first time Ben calls the wind to hearing something the next time. In the scene you reference Dal tells Kvothe: "The fact that you heard me say anything is probably a good sign.” When Elodin says Aerlevsedi, Sim hears wind. Then there's Kvothe hearing Ferula, Cyaerbasalien, and the aforementioned Aerlevsedi.

Gaston's point is that this might not be what's happening in Tarbean. :dunno:

[bradd]

I read a nice article on PR's blog the other day about his writing style (http://blog.patrickrothfuss.com/2011/08/fanmail-qa-why-does-it-take-so-long-to-translate-the-book/). In it he talks about how he tends not to spell things out all the time - we get Kvothe's view on the world rather than what was actually happening. I think this is what's happening with the names - Kvothe, on his way to becoming a namer, is hearing the calling names instead of nothing. Like thistle said, there's a heap of these in the book, but not just on naming either - one other example is the way that Elodin is teaching him. I think to someone standing on the outside it's pretty obvious what he's doing (starts with right brained induction questions, pushes him to see whether he will jump in to a situation without thinking, then when he finally accepts him into the class, tries to fire him up and make him angry to awaken his sleeping mind) but to Kvothe it's all random :)

Speaking of random, I have a bunch of observations from over the last break. A belated Happy Easter to all those who celebrate it :)

1. On the age of the university - When Kvothe is made a Re'lar (in NotW), Elodin tells him a story about the origin of the name. It begins with "Once upon a time, there was a University. It was built in the dead ruins of an older University".

2. On the systems of magic - PR mentioned we'd only seen 5 of the 6 magic systems performed. Assuming PR wasn't throwing out a red herring, the only magic that I could find that is foreshadowed but not seen is the singing magic of the Tahl. I agree with naming=shaping - my six are symathy/sygaldry, alchemy, naming, glamourie, grammarie and singing.

3. Kvothe's Sceop story is set in Faeriniel - Fae + Myr Tariniel? I couldn't get anything more out of it than that. I can't make Myr Tariniel in Fae work, but I definitely think there is some link there. The story also mentions TInue and Belenay which are both "modern" names.

4. On Andan as the Amyr on the vase - Nina used a piece of vellum from the Book of the Path. Kvothe notes that she scratched the words off except the name of Tehlu and his angels. Two names are left on the Amyrs shoulders - Andan and Ordal. This doesn't add anything to Dagon as Andan but I think it's still a valid idea - pity there's no more evidence either for or against.

5. On Geoffrey - It's not specifically mentioned in the book but it looks to me like Denna gave Geoffrey her turquoise teardrop earrings to help get him out of debt with Devi. What's the significance of that? I think it just shows that Denna means well at heart - she has been mistreated by men before but she sells her earrings to help Geoffrey and her necklace to help Kvothe. If Cinder is her patron, I think either she doesn't know who he is, or has been told a good reason for what they did.

6. In one of the interludes in WMF (Chap 19), Cob and the boys come to the bar to drink before Shep's funeral. Kvothe gives them all a drink on the house - a shot of whiskey. He takes the whiskey from a large barrel under the bar - which is where the special large copper bound barrel that he got delivered was placed. Any significance to that?

7. On Auri - I had a thought. I think it's a good assumption that Kvothe's name was changed to Kote in the frame story and that dramatically altered his personality. The only other person we know who definitively has had their name changed is Auri. So what was Auri like before she had her name changed? I've always pictured "Pre-Auri" as the same person but more skittish (hence why Elodin couldn't get to her). But the change that came over Kvothe/Kote is way more dramatic. I'm sure this is one of the questions that will be answered in D3 but I can't help but wonder if maybe she used to be hostile, even dangerous... :)

8. And I've saved the best for last - the connection between Kvothe and Lanre. I quite like this one - if it's correct, it's some nice subtle wordplay :) I think Kvothe has a "knack" for opening locks. We have two instances where locks pop open for him without any keys (Elodin's class and the Maer's tax money box) and he seems to be able to pick most locks relatively quickly. I think maybe this is still the knack (as in the NotW definition of "knack") for opening locks, and the tools (picks) aren't really required, but can help his focus and make it easier to perform. Cool - so what's the significance of this? Caudicus states that the Loeclos family stems from the idea of "lock less". I don't think it's too far outside the realms of possibility to consider that maybe this is a trait that shows up sometimes in the family - someone way in the past had a knack for opening locks and was given the name "lock less". Kvothe, as a descendant of the original Loeclos, has also developed this knack. And to tie it all together, what does Skarpi1 say about Lanre? "Mine is a new and terrible name. I am Haliax and no door can bar my passing." :)

[Nisheeth]

Was just re-reading the WMF's beginning. Here's somethings I just got:

I know the Sithe used to ride out wearing holly crowns when they hunted the skin dancers. . .

Said by Bast. Now this shows us that Sithe do more than just guard the Cthaeh. Maybe they were doing something like this when Kvothe approached?

When Kvothe asked Chronicler about Pomace, chronicler replied that any person in the town could have told him that. Kvothe replies:

If it’s something everyone knows, I can’t afford to ask

What is so odd about asking about some-thing very common? He could simply have said that he has never saw anything regarding it before, after all he is just an innkeeper.

And here's a quote from the end of NOTW, by Bast, when he describes Kvothe after the first night of K writing his Memoirs:

He looked three feet taller with

lightning on his shoulders

.

Emphasis is by me.

The only other person we know who definitively has had their name changed is Auri.

I think we can say the Haliax has had his name changed with almost a certainty. From the very quote you posted:

Mine is a

new

and terrible name

@8: I thought Kvothe hada knack for getting into trouble. :laugh:

Now seriously, WOW! Great find. Maybe Kvothe too opened the 4 gates? Wait, this gave me a new idea just now.

What if the 4 copper plates on the door in the Archives are locks to the 4 gates (Death, Insanity, Memory loss,Sleep).

[Gaston de Foix]

Was just re-reading the WMF's beginning. Here's somethings I just got:

I know the Sithe used to ride out wearing holly crowns when they hunted the skin dancers. . .

Said by Bast. Now this shows us that Sithe do more than just guard the Cthaeh. Maybe they were doing something like this when Kvothe approached?

When Kvothe asked Chronicler about Pomace, chronicler replied that any person in the town could have told him that. Kvothe replies:

If it’s something everyone knows, I can’t afford to ask

What is so odd about asking about some-thing very common? He could simply have said that he has never saw anything regarding it before, after all he is just an innkeeper.

And here's a quote from the end of NOTW, by Bast, when he describes Kvothe after the first night of K writing his Memoirs:

He looked three feet taller with

lightning on his shoulders

.

Emphasis is by me.

I think we can say the Haliax has had his name changed with almost a certainty. From the very quote you posted:

Mine is a

new

and terrible name

@8: I thought Kvothe hada knack for getting into trouble. :laugh:

Now seriously, WOW! Great find. Maybe Kvothe too opened the 4 gates? Wait, this gave me a new idea just now.

What if the 4 copper plates on the door in the Archives are locks to the 4 gates (Death, Insanity, Memory loss,Sleep).

Was just re-reading the WMF's beginning. Here's somethings I just got:

I know the Sithe used to ride out wearing holly crowns when they hunted the skin dancers. . .

Said by Bast. Now this shows us that Sithe do more than just guard the Cthaeh. Maybe they were doing something like this when Kvothe approached?

When Kvothe asked Chronicler about Pomace, chronicler replied that any person in the town could have told him that. Kvothe replies:

If it’s something everyone knows, I can’t afford to ask

What is so odd about asking about some-thing very common? He could simply have said that he has never saw anything regarding it before, after all he is just an innkeeper.

And here's a quote from the end of NOTW, by Bast, when he describes Kvothe after the first night of K writing his Memoirs:

He looked three feet taller with

lightning on his shoulders

.

Emphasis is by me.

I think we can say the Haliax has had his name changed with almost a certainty. From the very quote you posted:

Mine is a

new

and terrible name

@8: I thought Kvothe hada knack for getting into trouble. :laugh:

Now seriously, WOW! Great find. Maybe Kvothe too opened the 4 gates? Wait, this gave me a new idea just now.

What if the 4 copper plates on the door in the Archives are locks to the 4 gates (Death, Insanity, Memory loss,Sleep).

I like this idea too- it would make sense then that Kvothe, having changed his name, can't open his thrice locked box- his knack has deserted him.

As for the magic system we haven't seen performed, we haven't seen alchemy performed, merely it's effect. Weaselly I know. The other thing is we haven't seen any Shaping, outside the creation of the shaed, performed.

The ideas I'm reading on this thread are spectacular,I have to go back and read everything. It would actually be really helpful if we could come up with some kind of classification system for posts, make re-reading on particular points that much easier.

[thistlepong]

That's a lot of unpaid labor. I really appreciated Jumbles linking all the previous threads when ze started this one. It made me think about putting together a list of links we've used over and over again as well as to some of the more solid/popular posts.

More later, but... bradd, your #7 suggests proof Auri's had her name changed. Can you quote it? That's be quite a find.

[Nisheeth]

I am guessing that when he said that Auri's name was changed, he was referring to this part:

"It’s my name," ...

"Kvothe

gave

it to me"

"If your name is getting too heavy, you should have Kvothe give you a

new

one."

Again, Emphasis is mine.

It was when Kvothe, Elodin and Auri were on the rooftop having dinner, and just before Elodin invited Kvothe to join his Naming classes.

[Gaston de Foix]

It's interesting- Kvothe says he named Auri because he sees the qualities of of sunniness in her, so for him it's point and recognise, but for Auri, it makes a material difference to her life.